How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by LewTwo » Oct 30 2021 11:23pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Oct 24 2021 3:44pm
Pretty sure its single crystal NMC 532/AG
I had to go look that one up ...
Single Crystal NMC 532 Cathode, Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, LiNi0 5Mn0 3Co0 2O2

https://www.electricbike.com/batteries- ... nmc532-ag/
Last edited by LewTwo on Oct 30 2021 11:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Oct 30 2021 11:28pm

LewTwo wrote:
Oct 30 2021 11:23pm
spinningmagnets wrote:
Oct 24 2021 3:44pm
Pretty sure its single crystal NMC 532/AG
I had to go look that one up ...
Single Crystal NMC 532 Cathode, Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, LiNi0 5Mn0 3Co0 2O2
Cathode on Tesla 4680 will do away with cobalt. So yeah...Cobalt free for the future.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by spinningmagnets » Oct 31 2021 9:14am

The Chinese factory Tesla's are slated to use high-amp LiFePO4, dont know if that has changed this last year...

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Ianhill » Oct 31 2021 12:33pm

I think thats a tesla hater myself the cars would have drastically different range and why all the effort of making a giga press to then use a different cell type thats inferior.

If this was the case it be like the sansung galaxy phones were one chip is not desirable and the other is with upto 25% difference everyone opted for a snapdragon chip when generation before the exynos chip was king and showed through in camera performance been able to capture faster slow motion footage but within one generation it all went pear shaped.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Chalo » Nov 02 2021 11:23am

Ianhill wrote:
Oct 31 2021 12:33pm
why all the effort of making a giga press to then use a different cell type thats inferior.
Because Chinese EVs are going to have to get by without cobalt, or everybody will have to get by without cobalt. Whoever does the best/cheapest job of that will win a major theater in the battery wars.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 02 2021 1:35pm

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Ianhill » Nov 02 2021 6:33pm

Chalo wrote:
Nov 02 2021 11:23am
Ianhill wrote:
Oct 31 2021 12:33pm
why all the effort of making a giga press to then use a different cell type thats inferior.
Because Chinese EVs are going to have to get by without cobalt, or everybody will have to get by without cobalt. Whoever does the best/cheapest job of that will win a major theater in the battery wars.
Slight inconvenience then makes sence now why some of the mills bits are so damn expensive compared to 15 year ago the bastards.

Yes move to no cobalt much better lol
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 02 2021 6:33pm

Due to recent "recycling" experiments, cobalt is verified yo be easily recaptured from old EV battery packs.

The issue with cobalt is two-fold. First, it is the hardest part of the "best" EV batteries to acquire, and...most of the world's cobalt comes from a region in Africa that is known for horrifying work conditions for the laborers.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Ianhill » Nov 02 2021 6:43pm

Stupid why we can not pay a decent amount for the cobalt mines to be explored in a non child labour deadly chemical way.

Thing is some mill bits can be upto 3× the price of 15 years ago inflation adjusted too so where is that extra cost going if its still african kids washing their land away or whatever to reach the stuff.

Shameful business men somewhere in the supply chain got to be.

Ive been reading into chip fab lithography plants needing more and more water to reach smaller NM process to the point the are using most of the areas yearly supply to manufacture clean water and now theres a ramp up farmers downline are struggling to water crops, but these modern chips will reduce water needs of the plant with a technological harvest lol.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 02 2021 7:47pm

Cobalt and lithium will distance from the battery technology pretty soon. The future of batteries is in much more abundant and stable metals. Sodium metal cell is almost there, and many other alternatives are explored. Batteries will change a lot in the next 20 years, not only because of the pressure of the requirements, but mostly because much more people are studying in battery tech, more research is active everywhere.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 03 2021 9:19am

It's been 50 yrs. time for a new battery!
Lithium-ion batteries were created in 1970, when there was an oil crisis.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by LewTwo » Nov 03 2021 10:41am

ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 03 2021 9:19am
It's been 50 yrs. time for a new battery!
Lithium-ion batteries were created in 1970, when there was an oil crisis.
I once read a story about the last "Edison Batteries" that were taken out of service.
They were over 100 years old.
However the chemistry does not lend itself well to portable applications as they are big, heavy and caustic.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 03 2021 11:30am

At one time was Excited about Edison Batteries. For home use only. Still being made up in Montana somewhere. The batteries last just need to change out the caustic fluid. Oxygen contaminates the fluid., if you had them in a sealed room and kept a low oxygen environment would not need to be refreshed as often. The metal does not wear out that I know of.

Our bikes are a different story. Aluminum air or something.
by LewTwo » Nov 03 2021 10:41am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Nov 03 2021 9:19am
It's been 50 yrs. time for a new battery!
Lithium-ion batteries were created in 1970, when there was an oil crisis.
I once read a story about the last "Edison Batteries" that were taken out of service.
They were over 100 years old.
However the chemistry does not lend itself well to portable applications as they are big, heavy and caustic.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Ianhill » Nov 03 2021 2:18pm

Id love to see such a fast paced cell improvement but those meddling kids in the goverment with inside info on patents and the stock market might have something to say about that when they push investments in ways to suit themself.

Hydrogen cassette tapes were been invented and improved upon in the 1980's but US GOVERMENT deemed the technology dangerous for air strike missiles and banned the company patent access 30 years later they say go on then, the companys founding aspirations are gone the driving force over how they still exists is pure amazement in itself.

Bit off topic as usual and ranty but it's the truth we ain't good at putting our best foot forward with best inventive intentions money makes that shit goe south.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 03 2021 7:22pm

Know where you are coming from. Corporations that want to get more life from there products buy up patents and put them in the bottom drawer. Some things that don't change I just refuse to buy them.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 03 2021 10:09pm

Ianhill wrote:
Oct 31 2021 12:33pm
I think thats a tesla hater myself the cars would have drastically different range and why all the effort of making a giga press to then use a different cell type thats inferior.
..Several reasons,..some openly stated by Tesla,...and some inferred !
1) Cost...The CATL LiFe cells are much cheaper than Teslas NCA $/kWh. That means the total car cost can be lower for the local market.
2) Contractual .. Tesla had to “Negotiate” a deal to manufacture & sell in China....Using a certain % of locally made parts would likely have been part of that deal, if not mandated by Authorities.
3) Range Reduction... Yes odd,! But the chinese market is not fixated on max range apparently and so a lower capacity (cost) pack makes sense.
4) Battery Manufacturing capacity... Tesla are already maxed out with cell production for both Cars and Storage packs. So an alternative local source, helps hugely to avoid more supply bottlenecks.
5) Politics/Marketing....Musk has openly declared his desire to go “Cobalt Free”.. These CATL cells already are and hence gives “Electric Jesus” an opportunity to brag of another achievement !
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by LewTwo » Nov 03 2021 10:48pm

Ianhill wrote:
Oct 31 2021 12:33pm
I think thats a tesla hater myself the cars would have drastically different range and why all the effort of making a giga press to then use a different cell type thats inferior.
Many years ago, I had a short career as a 'tool and die' designer for a American Company that made fasteners. In those days if a company wanted a new bolt making machine then they had to commit an order to "National Machine Co." (headquartered in Ohio) five years ahead of time. Among other reasons is that it took at least two years for the multi-ton machine frame to age and cure in the Brazilian desert where it was cast. Also the factory where it was to be installed had to have a deep, thich, heavy block of reinforced concrete poured, aged and cured to hold that machine. There are very few of those old machines left in this country. Most were removed and shipped to Taiwan, India and/or China .... and why I no longer had a job at that company.

I am not a "Tela Hater" .... I just think that Elon Musk is being overly optimistic and trying to favorably influence investors w/o a solid foundation in reality.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 06 2021 9:17pm

BalorNG wrote:
Oct 12 2021 3:19am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Oct 11 2021 9:16pm
Here is a comparison I ran of a 72v GMAC 10T with 20 amp controller vs. 36v GMAC 10T with a 40 amp controller.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html? ... p_b=0&hp=0 (455 pound weight chosen to simulate two average sized americans (with clothes and shoes) on a 84 pound moped.

The 72v GMAC 10T with 20 amp controller wins (predictably) on flat ground up to around 4.5 percent grade. At 5% grade 72v with 20 amp ties with 36v with 40 amp. At 6% grade the 72v 20amp stalls (i.e. climbs at only .5 mph) but the 36v 40 amp continues to be able to climb steeper and steeper grades.

So yeah, it does appear this idea has merit if it could be made automatic/switch on the fly. (mopeds need to have automatic transmissions according to law in US and Canada (well at least in British Columbia, I haven't taken a look at the rest of Canada)).
What you want is easily implemented by a 'smart controller' where you can limit phase and battery currents independently.
This way you can have 40 (or 80 for that matter) phase amps at low speed (when your PWM is way below 100% hence *motor* voltage is way below 72v), but limit *battery* current so it does not exceed 1.5hp even at high speed using a controller/motor combo easily capable of double that.

However, using a speed limit is what this is *really* is about. When you are crawling steep uphill at 10 mph while carrying a ton of stuff and using 2+kw to do it, you are not hazard to anyone.

When blasting 50+ mph on a flat (made possible by same 2+ kw of power), a mistake can kill you and innocent bystanders to boot.

Downhill bicycles (that are cross motorcycles on a diet) can manage that, but a lot of typical bicycles are simply unsafe at those speeds. That's why there is a distinction between bicycles, mopeds and motorcycles, with each step there are stricter requirements on *mechanicals*.

Again, smarter controllers can do that (like e-bike vesc can give you 72v, 100A, but still limit your maximum speed to any number you want).
The downside is that you need a battery with twice as many cells to run 72v 40 amp as you do with 72v 20 amp or 36v 40 amp.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by BalorNG » Nov 07 2021 4:50am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Nov 06 2021 9:17pm
BalorNG wrote:
Oct 12 2021 3:19am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Oct 11 2021 9:16pm
Here is a comparison I ran of a 72v GMAC 10T with 20 amp controller vs. 36v GMAC 10T with a 40 amp controller.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html? ... p_b=0&hp=0 (455 pound weight chosen to simulate two average sized americans (with clothes and shoes) on a 84 pound moped.

The 72v GMAC 10T with 20 amp controller wins (predictably) on flat ground up to around 4.5 percent grade. At 5% grade 72v with 20 amp ties with 36v with 40 amp. At 6% grade the 72v 20amp stalls (i.e. climbs at only .5 mph) but the 36v 40 amp continues to be able to climb steeper and steeper grades.

So yeah, it does appear this idea has merit if it could be made automatic/switch on the fly. (mopeds need to have automatic transmissions according to law in US and Canada (well at least in British Columbia, I haven't taken a look at the rest of Canada)).
What you want is easily implemented by a 'smart controller' where you can limit phase and battery currents independently.
This way you can have 40 (or 80 for that matter) phase amps at low speed (when your PWM is way below 100% hence *motor* voltage is way below 72v), but limit *battery* current so it does not exceed 1.5hp even at high speed using a controller/motor combo easily capable of double that.

However, using a speed limit is what this is *really* is about. When you are crawling steep uphill at 10 mph while carrying a ton of stuff and using 2+kw to do it, you are not hazard to anyone.

When blasting 50+ mph on a flat (made possible by same 2+ kw of power), a mistake can kill you and innocent bystanders to boot.

Downhill bicycles (that are cross motorcycles on a diet) can manage that, but a lot of typical bicycles are simply unsafe at those speeds. That's why there is a distinction between bicycles, mopeds and motorcycles, with each step there are stricter requirements on *mechanicals*.

Again, smarter controllers can do that (like e-bike vesc can give you 72v, 100A, but still limit your maximum speed to any number you want).
The downside is that you need a battery with twice as many cells to run 72v 40 amp as you do with 72v 20 amp or 36v 40 amp.
Do you even read my posts? 72v 20a battery has *same* *power* capacity as 36v 40a so far as controller is concerned, it does DC-DC conversion (and 99% efficient one to boot).

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 07 2021 7:55am

BalorNG wrote:
Nov 07 2021 4:50am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Nov 06 2021 9:17pm
BalorNG wrote:
Oct 12 2021 3:19am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Oct 11 2021 9:16pm
Here is a comparison I ran of a 72v GMAC 10T with 20 amp controller vs. 36v GMAC 10T with a 40 amp controller.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html? ... p_b=0&hp=0 (455 pound weight chosen to simulate two average sized americans (with clothes and shoes) on a 84 pound moped.

The 72v GMAC 10T with 20 amp controller wins (predictably) on flat ground up to around 4.5 percent grade. At 5% grade 72v with 20 amp ties with 36v with 40 amp. At 6% grade the 72v 20amp stalls (i.e. climbs at only .5 mph) but the 36v 40 amp continues to be able to climb steeper and steeper grades.

So yeah, it does appear this idea has merit if it could be made automatic/switch on the fly. (mopeds need to have automatic transmissions according to law in US and Canada (well at least in British Columbia, I haven't taken a look at the rest of Canada)).
What you want is easily implemented by a 'smart controller' where you can limit phase and battery currents independently.
This way you can have 40 (or 80 for that matter) phase amps at low speed (when your PWM is way below 100% hence *motor* voltage is way below 72v), but limit *battery* current so it does not exceed 1.5hp even at high speed using a controller/motor combo easily capable of double that.

However, using a speed limit is what this is *really* is about. When you are crawling steep uphill at 10 mph while carrying a ton of stuff and using 2+kw to do it, you are not hazard to anyone.

When blasting 50+ mph on a flat (made possible by same 2+ kw of power), a mistake can kill you and innocent bystanders to boot.

Downhill bicycles (that are cross motorcycles on a diet) can manage that, but a lot of typical bicycles are simply unsafe at those speeds. That's why there is a distinction between bicycles, mopeds and motorcycles, with each step there are stricter requirements on *mechanicals*.

Again, smarter controllers can do that (like e-bike vesc can give you 72v, 100A, but still limit your maximum speed to any number you want).
The downside is that you need a battery with twice as many cells to run 72v 40 amp as you do with 72v 20 amp or 36v 40 amp.
Do you even read my posts? 72v 20a battery has *same* *power* capacity as 36v 40a so far as controller is concerned, it does DC-DC conversion (and 99% efficient one to boot).
I don't see how a VESC would help over a controller switching from 72v 20 amp to 36v 40 amp.

The only way I can see a VESC helping is if it were a much higher power draw like 72v 40 amp (you used 72v 100 amp as an example in own post)....then it makes sense, but the battery will always have to be twice as big. (In the case of your own 72v 100 amp example I believe the battery would need to be 5x as big as a controller running 72v 20 amp)

The beauty of switching from 72v 20 amp to 36v 40 amp is that while the current doubles so does the number of cells in parallel (so the current drain on each cell does not increase).

P.S. You do understand that when a 72v 20 amp controller switches to 36v 40 amp the battery pack also changes from 20s1xP to 10s2xP?.(i.e. the number of cells in the pack does not increase.... it just halves the number of cells in series and doubles the number of cells in parallel.)

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by BalorNG » Nov 07 2021 8:57am

Unfortunately, you are obviously clueless regarding how it works.

If you ride up a steep at slow speed hill at 80 phase amps using same motor at same speed but using either 72v 20Ah or 36v 40Ah battery, the CURRENT PER CELL will remain THE SAME. Because they have the same number of cells!

Just do some ebike.ca simulations, don't you?

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 07 2021 2:19pm

BalorNG wrote:
Nov 07 2021 8:57am
Unfortunately, you are obviously clueless regarding how it works.

If you ride up a steep at slow speed hill at 80 phase amps using same motor at same speed but using either 72v 20Ah or 36v 40Ah battery, the CURRENT PER CELL will remain THE SAME. Because they have the same number of cells!

Just do some ebike.ca simulations, don't you?
Ok. So if the battery connected to 72v 20 amp controller is also big enough to supply 40 amps as 36v.....then it is also big enough to supply 40 amps if the cells are internally 20s1xP rather than.10s2xP.

Got it.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by JackFlorey » Nov 07 2021 2:21pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Nov 07 2021 2:19pm
Ok. So if the battery connected to 72v 20 amp controller is also big enough to supply 40 amps as 36v.....then it is also big enough to supply 40 amps if the cells are internally 20s1xP rather than.10s2xP. Got it.
Nope. You still don't get it.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by JackFlorey » Nov 07 2021 2:24pm

Ianhill wrote:
Oct 31 2021 12:33pm
I think thats a tesla hater myself the cars would have drastically different range and why all the effort of making a giga press to then use a different cell type thats inferior.
Because they're not inferior. They last longer, for one thing.

The big difference is energy density. Thus if you trade one for the other, your range goes down from 360 miles to 220 miles. For many people that's a non-issue. For people who have to drive 360 miles at a stretch, there's always li-ion.

I would note that when I got my first EV it had a range of 70 miles. It was still quite usable. 220 miles would have been awesome.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 07 2021 2:28pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Nov 07 2021 2:21pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Nov 07 2021 2:19pm
Ok. So if the battery connected to 72v 20 amp controller is also big enough to supply 40 amps as 36v.....then it is also big enough to supply 40 amps if the cells are internally 20s1xP rather than.10s2xP. Got it.
Nope. You still don't get it.

The number of cells is the same for either configuration thus the current flow per cell would be the same if connected to a 36v 40 amp controller or 72v 40 amp controller.

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