Grin’s perspective of Ebike fires
- Thread starter Eastwood
- Start date
docw009
1 MW
One conclusion is going to rattle the regulators. Don't blame the users..... "It's all about the cells, dummy!"
I knew UL testing was expensive, having worked with them 40 years ago, but Justin said $40K to test one model and he sells 13 models,making it pretty costly to get that label,
I knew UL testing was expensive, having worked with them 40 years ago, but Justin said $40K to test one model and he sells 13 models,making it pretty costly to get that label,
biphaeboh
100 W
Good video. Leaves me with some questions. Why automobile EV fires, when they presumably use high quality cells?
Interesting that a CO2 extinguisher works, because the CO2 is so cold that it cools the battery.
I note that Grin has all its non UL certified batteries on sale right now, might be an opportunity.
Interesting that a CO2 extinguisher works, because the CO2 is so cold that it cools the battery.
I note that Grin has all its non UL certified batteries on sale right now, might be an opportunity.
Some would question if you can consider LG cells high quality based on the percentage of EV fires and and battery recalls that come from vehicles with their cells. That and many companies designing these packs don't really have much experience, an EV battery is much more complicated than a bike battery and so much more difficult and if you're an OEM that is just starting out in EVs you're probably going to learn some things, it's not like they've had 100+ years of learning how to build them as with ICE vehicles.
Although I think we need much better data gathering on battery fires to determine the cause and which manufactures, cell designs, chemistries, formats, packaging, etc are actually the safest. Without real world data it's hard to actually know just how safe a battery is even if it's from a reputable brand, lab testing only goes so far when we're aiming for perfection.
Iit just takes one cell to blow up the whole pack. Automobiles have a damn lot of individual cells.
BTW, never featured in many media stories is the fact that, on a per car basis, EVs burst into flames less often than gasoline cars. So many different analyses confirm that.
Why do EVs get attention when they catch fire? it's because new things are scarier than old things.
That being said we can, and should improve the safety of the lithium battery further... and also be realistic about it.
biphaeboh
100 W
Yeah, EV fires are rare, but they are different from ICE fires. Harder to put out and we don't have the institutional experience to deal with them. Very toxic gases emitted and very toxic smoke, there have been a couple of videos posted here that make that clear.
lnanek
1 kW
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2022
- Messages
- 450
Darn, I was looking forward to the next edition of Grin's LiGo batteries:
ebikes.ca
If UL certification is 40k per model, now, though, and required by law - tough to imagine it makes financial sense for a non-mainstream product.
LiGo Batteries - Grin Products - Product Info
The LiGo battery is a modular 36V pack designed and manufactured at Grin that is just under the 100 Wh limit allowed for passenger air travel. This allows you to bring multiple small batteries with you in your carry-on baggage, and then hook the packs together to behave as a single large battery...
ebikes.ca
If UL certification is 40k per model, now, though, and required by law - tough to imagine it makes financial sense for a non-mainstream product.
Hillhater
100 TW
Frustrating !… since many of us know that even this type of testing and certification wont eliminate the risk from unskilled amatures messing with their batteries and chargers.!
its like expecting the driving licience to eliminate traffic accidents…
…BUT.. ebike/scooter battery fires are a hot topic on National news here (Oz), currently, following a series of house and appartment fires blamed on lithium batteries.
Calls for restrictions and sales bans for Li batteries on Ebay etc !
its like expecting the driving licience to eliminate traffic accidents…
…BUT.. ebike/scooter battery fires are a hot topic on National news here (Oz), currently, following a series of house and appartment fires blamed on lithium batteries.
Calls for restrictions and sales bans for Li batteries on Ebay etc !
biphaeboh
100 W
Justin makes the interesting point that the UL certification doesn't really address the problem which he sees as mainly from the use of cheap generic cells rather than quality cells from a major manufacturer. However the hefty fee will discourage the fly by night battery assemblers whose products seem to be the the ones causing the problem. The fee itself is the deterrent, rather than the value of the certification.
stevecahill
10 W
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2019
- Messages
- 78
Excellent video! Curious about what flame-retardant epoxy is being used for potting the batteries? Found this interesting video
boytitan
100 W
My problem with EVS is simply that plug in hybrids are more efficient and if not for tesla are where the industry would go. Why are we using more battery, manufacturing, weight when we can just have both. Fully electric for now should be reserved for bikes and low speed motorcycle class vehicles anything bigger than a zero fxs and the amount of battery needed is just to much. For some strange reason aside from the Dodge Hornet rt which sucks, The acura nsx which electric range is a gimmick. Plug in hybrids have been limited to soccer mom class. Its either go gas electric sucks fight change, go all electric which also sucks. When we could be making good hybrids. None of the top egineers at company are trying to make a good hybrid except toyota but the prius is the most boring and numb vehicle on the planet to drive I don't care how well egineered it is I would rather walk if that was my only mode of transportation.
Hillhater
100 TW
Toyota are ahead of the game, but if you look again you will find many of the other manufacturers now have hybrid versions of their models.
Hyundai /Kia are a good starting point.….
..and Toyota have many more hybrids than just the Prius !
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Generally speaking it would be less efficient to have additional rotating mass/friction and also hundreds of lbs of weight of a powertrain you're not using versus simply having one powertrain.
The new Prius is pretty amazing and much unlike all past models. 194 HP and good suspension/handling!
If i didn't already own a gasser that gets 40-65mpg, i would own one.
The new Prius is pretty amazing and much unlike all past models. 194 HP and good suspension/handling!
If i didn't already own a gasser that gets 40-65mpg, i would own one.
JackFlorey
100 kW
In the direction of BYD, Ford, GM and Nissan.
Hybrids (HEVs) get all their energy from gasoline. I think you're talking about pluggable hybrids (PHEVs.) They are a good option as well.
Have you driven the 2023 Prius?
DaLanMan
10 kW
Somewhere round my phone is an entire conversation between 4 hardcore motorheads about the link I had posted... of the new Prius.. It was embarrassing as hell being that I am the one guy in the group who has managed to make consistantly attractive vehicles while tinkering. That is because when I start looking at modifications my first thought is how to not attract the attention of the Blueberry and cherry crowd while driving it around.
I turned a Geo Storm into a 11s car, that also was my daily driver and still got 22mpg Mine looked much like the one in the link. It looked almost exactly the same when I had it producing 422BHP, It was lowered about 4cm but we re-flared the body panels along the lower edge to conceal it. Yes, I had my mods. why? Insurance is expensive when your other cars is (at the time) a Cobra and a Range Rover... (not modern, it was a 60's unit but even then Insurance companies realised they were getting expensive)
I turned a Geo Storm into a 11s car, that also was my daily driver and still got 22mpg Mine looked much like the one in the link. It looked almost exactly the same when I had it producing 422BHP, It was lowered about 4cm but we re-flared the body panels along the lower edge to conceal it. Yes, I had my mods. why? Insurance is expensive when your other cars is (at the time) a Cobra and a Range Rover... (not modern, it was a 60's unit but even then Insurance companies realised they were getting expensive)
I'm honestly surprised the world didn't go hybrid instead of electric first..
Hybrid is cheaper upfront and is a WAY less expensive way to reduce emissions per mile, nice transition tool that doesn't require building you know, some additional hundreds of gigawatts of electricity capacity to power the electric future, instead we are just effectively recuperating lost energy..
Add improved aerodynamics into the mixture and the world could be outputting half the carbon out their tailpipes.
But we're not that smart as a species
I would still prefer an EV car but i would like batteries to improve first.
Hybrid is cheaper upfront and is a WAY less expensive way to reduce emissions per mile, nice transition tool that doesn't require building you know, some additional hundreds of gigawatts of electricity capacity to power the electric future, instead we are just effectively recuperating lost energy..
Add improved aerodynamics into the mixture and the world could be outputting half the carbon out their tailpipes.
But we're not that smart as a species
I would still prefer an EV car but i would like batteries to improve first.
boytitan
100 W
Yeah but they aren't good driving. I want a car the quality of the lucid air in handling and ride quality but a plugin hybrid. None of this plug in hybrids being reserved for the boring economy class segment. Attempt of performance cars being full electric and sucking aside from the lucid. Lucid is great just heavy asf and all the cons of a full ev except handling it drives better than my Jetta GLI by a lot. Like chefs kiss. Making a turbo 4 performance phev that does what lucid does in a full ev can't be that hard.
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JackFlorey
100 kW
?? It did. The first Prius was sold in 2001. The first Leaf was sold in 2011.
Right now I have a Prius Prime for my daily driver, which is a pluggable hybrid. I get about 26 miles of range, which covers my commuting and shopping. I use about a gallon of gas a month for the occasional longer trips.
My wife has a Tesla for driving the kids to school and for vacations. It's much bigger/safer/more comfortable.
I see lots of them in my area of Phoenix, AZ. Back when cabs were still a thing, I would see a dozen or more green ones in the ~10 minute commute over a couple of miles to and from work every day; and at least that many regular ones. Even without the cabs, I still see more than a dozen on my commute each way each day.
Chalo
100 TW
There are plenty of Prii where I am in Austin. It's one of the more common models of actual car (as opposed to gigantic Emotional Support Vehicles) that are in circulation here.
I see a fair number of Kia Niro hybrids too.
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Back in 2016 I determined that a second car was needed for me/my family. After a bunch of research I determined that the best fit for my needs was a gen 2 prius. I wound up with a slightly mistreated, but mechanically sound 2004 Prius with 288000 km on it for $4000 AUD. A real bargain at the time and even better by today's standards.
8 years on with regular servicing and nearly 350000km on the clock it's still going strong. In that time I have replaced the HV twice with junkyard batteries from wrecked Prius with lower mileage. It would only be once, but I think the first battery was not the >100k km the junkyard promised. In both cases after selling off the old batteries/cells I was only out of pocked less than about $500 AUD.
Anyway, while fuel is over $2/L, I'm really liking having a car that only uses 5L/100km and only cost me 4K to buy.
Cheers
8 years on with regular servicing and nearly 350000km on the clock it's still going strong. In that time I have replaced the HV twice with junkyard batteries from wrecked Prius with lower mileage. It would only be once, but I think the first battery was not the >100k km the junkyard promised. In both cases after selling off the old batteries/cells I was only out of pocked less than about $500 AUD.
Anyway, while fuel is over $2/L, I'm really liking having a car that only uses 5L/100km and only cost me 4K to buy.
Cheers
harrisonpatm
10 kW
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2022
- Messages
- 824
A company called Woods made the first hybrid gas-electric vehicle in 1916. Hybrids have been kicking around for awhile.
EV's in History: some examples at the Henry Ford Museum
We have a lot of topics and threads regarding the potential of EV automobiles and what may or may not happen in the future. I thought it might be interesting, relevant, informative and/or helpful to have a look at what has happened in the past. What worked, what didn't, what got tried before and...
endless-sphere.com
DaLanMan
10 kW
A guy named Ford's first horseless carriage was electric...
or at least the guy at the museum said, I ain't that old..
I recall reading a commentary article in an "electro mechanical enthusiasts magazine for Gentlemen" from the late 1800's being all agock at the experience he had in the Stanley Steamer...
I do a lot of car shows, I have been an enthusiast of things with wheels and propulsion as far back as I remember. Well, at first it was Boats, my birth father was a fishermen and I grew up on the decks. After his passing it was 20 odd years before I would go near one.
I love all kinds of go fast adrenaline pumping things. I had a friend once tell me "YOu have to go Skydiving the way you love high speed things" And he knew I was a Ranger...
or at least the guy at the museum said, I ain't that old..
I recall reading a commentary article in an "electro mechanical enthusiasts magazine for Gentlemen" from the late 1800's being all agock at the experience he had in the Stanley Steamer...
I do a lot of car shows, I have been an enthusiast of things with wheels and propulsion as far back as I remember. Well, at first it was Boats, my birth father was a fishermen and I grew up on the decks. After his passing it was 20 odd years before I would go near one.
I love all kinds of go fast adrenaline pumping things. I had a friend once tell me "YOu have to go Skydiving the way you love high speed things" And he knew I was a Ranger...
