'lightest.bike' 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

raylo32 said:

I don't see any discussion of this on their website. Which form factor case and cells did you get?

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Yeah, I can’t find any info on potting and UL certification, or a “next gen” EM3ev battery.

raylo32 said:

I don't see any discussion of this on their website. Which form factor case and cells did you get?

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To be totally honest, i'm treated special because i helped them build their company back in 2011. They told me that these new models were just being tested and offered to get me one early. I would expect their listings to be updated in a few weeks.

IGHs have 4% ( Rohloff ) to 15% ( CVT ) more friction than a derailleur setup. Unless we're talking about a 4-5lbs Rohloff or '9x9' then the more gears you get, the weaker they get.

That plus their weight is a thing.

Cassettes max out at 12 gears ( making a strength compromise as a result ) and this drive has higher efficiency so i don't think these extra 2 gears in a Rohloff would make a big difference in bike efficiency since we're constantly taking a penalty. I think it could only make sense on human power TBH. But if you're on human power, you haven't lost your front gears on the crank in the first place, so..

neptronix said:

To be totally honest, i'm treated special because i helped them build their company back in 2011. They told me that these new models were just being tested and offered to get me one early. I would expect their listings to be updated in a few weeks.

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I think this is pretty big news. GRIN is having a fire sale on all their non-UL packs, and their new UL packs won't be here til this summer. The DIY scene needs UL battery options, but sadly might not be enough:

Bill SB-712 here in California requires landlords to allow your ebike on the property if it has UL 2849. UL 2271 does not appear anywhere in the text of the bill.

I think NYC requires all bikes now to be UL 2849.

UL 2849 is ebike specific and is basically an inspection of the entire bike.

UL 2271 is the certification that ebike batteries get.

New legislation in CA appears to be written in a way that allows property owners to ban DIY ebikes even with a UL 2271 battery. NYC has appeared to have banned DIY entirely.

So unfortunately we're are heading into a future where DIY is contraband. If you have a DIY ebike, buying a UL listed battery will give you some piece of mind, but it will not give you any protections under the law.

These idiot politicians. They could have easily added a line to these bills:

* If the ebike is not UL 2849 certified, the battery must be unplugged from the bike before bringing indoors.

That would have allowed all the existing ebikes to remain in service with a new UL 2271 pack instead of in a landfill. Rad Power's new UL 2271 battery will work on their older models, but new laws are being written that make that less desirable.

TLDR: when I look at the text of these new ebike laws, UL 2271 is less of a benefit to most of us on this forum. Having UL 2271 will allow you to bring the battery indoors for charging, but your non-UL-2849 bike can be banned from properties, private and public.

Fun fact: in Italy, where Bikee operates from, the head of infrastructure, Matteo Salvini, wants all ebikes to be registered, licensed and insured just like all motor vehicles. Dude wants license plates on bikes, and lower taxes for cars. And what will ebike riders get in exchange? More bike infrastructure? Nope. Their current adminstration is very anti-bike.

I feel like the fun times are over.

neptronix said:

IGHs have 4% ( Rohloff ) to 15% ( CVT ) more friction than a derailleur setup. Unless we're talking about a 4-5lbs Rohloff or '9x9' then the more gears you get, the weaker they get.

That plus their weight is a thing.

Cassettes max out at 12 gears ( making a strength compromise as a result ) and this drive has higher efficiency so i don't think these extra 2 gears in a Rohloff would make a big difference in bike efficiency since we're constantly taking a penalty. I think it could only make sense on human power TBH. But if you're on human power, you haven't lost your front gears on the crank in the first place, so..

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11th gear on the Rohloff has no drag, it is straight through. The Rohloff is designed around a large front chainring. That's why it is geared so low. Far lower than a cassette. The idea is you can have a huge chainring for achieving high top speed without sacrificing climbing ability, a tradeoff that every other 1X setup struggles with.

This makes the Rohloff a good match for the Lightest kit, because the Lightest kit needs a big ring to match your cadence to the pinion at higher voltage (48/52).

The chainline on the Rohloff is a whopping 54mm! In the early days, you would just remove the 2 smaller cogs from your 3X chainring.

neptronix said:

To be totally honest, i'm treated special because i helped them build their company back in 2011. They told me that these new models were just being tested and offered to get me one early. I would expect their listings to be updated in a few weeks.

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Are they finally making 72v packs again?

nervagon said:

I feel like the fun times are over.

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I'm sorry to hear this but at the same time i feel more grateful to be out of there since '09!

Interesting story about Italy, EU countries are ultra draconian so it's no wonder basically anything we order from there looks highly overregulated by design.

nervagon said:

11th gear on the Rohloff has no drag, it is straight through. The Rohloff is designed around a large front chainring. That's why it is geared so low. Far lower than a cassette. The idea is you can have a huge chainring for achieving high top speed without sacrificing climbing ability, a tradeoff that every other 1X setup struggles with.

This makes the Rohloff a good match for the Lightest kit, because the Lightest kit needs a big ring to match your cadence to the pinion at higher voltage (48/52).

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These are good points but the Rohloff is still out for me, dual chainring all the way.
Still waiting for a response on the price of converting the lightest over.

maiz said:

Are they finally making 72v packs again?

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No idea, i would guess the answer is no.

neptronix said:

I'm sorry to hear this but at the same time i feel more grateful to be out of there since '09!

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Well, have a look at HB85 effective May 1st if you think you are immune:


It appears to modify and clarify the older, existing code. Lots of stuff buried in there:

"Electric assisted bicycle" does not include:
(v) any other vehicle with less than four wheels that is designed, manufactured, intended, or advertised by the seller to have any of the following capabilities or features, or that is modifiable or is modified to have any of the following capabilities or features:

(A) has the ability to attain the speed of 20 miles per hour or greater on motor power alone;
(B) is equipped with a continuous rated motor power of 750 watts or greater;
(C) is equipped with foot pegs for the operator at the time of manufacture, or requires installation of a pedal kit to have operable pedals; or
(D) if equipped with multiple operating modes and a throttle, has one or more modes that exceed 20 miles per hour on motor power alone.

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So, if your ebike can be changed between class 1, class 2, and class 3, it cannot have a throttle. If it does, it is an unauthorized motor vehicle.

"ensure that a programmable electric assisted bicycle is equipped with a conspicuous label indicating the class or classes of electric assisted bicycle of which the programmable electric assisted bicycle is capable of operating."

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Edit: Utah is just copy-pasta from CA ebike laws:

"The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed, and motor wattage of the electric bicycle, and shall be printed in Arial font in at least 9-point type.”

That exact language appears in both UT and CA regulations. It looks like this will all be standardized across the US soon.

Ebikes appear to be outright banned on many desirable Utah trail systems, and the few that are open to ebikes are class 1 only. A huge chunk of Moab is off-limits to ebikes. The Utah Wildlife Board approved a measure in in 2022 to reclassify Class II and Class III e-bikes as motorized vehicles, which means riders must obey the same restrictions as cars, trucks and off-highway vehicles.

I don't know, it looks like you've got the same mess up there. Whether or not people turn a blind eye to the laws is a different story. But you are not in some magical libertarian utopia up there. The citation can be $500-$1000 when you do get snagged, including the possible impounding and destruction of your bike.

This UL stuff will catch up to you in the beehive state, I guarantee it. How do I know? Karens. You have a very high amount of Karens per capita. This isn't a red state/blue state thing. Some of the reddest states have the shittiest ebike regulations.

None of those laws are enforced here in my area, you would be surprised.
They got copy pasted in the 2010's and haven't changed since.

I see gas bikes all over trails. And generally nobody cares.
I see totally illegal gas mopeds and scooters here and there too, in the car lane even, cops don't care.
You can legally drive an ATV on the street in some counties.

Moab is very different than the Salt Lake area and has special ebike rules because it's a tourist town and bike snob town.

They've had ebike laws on the books for ages but the cops don't even know what an ebike is and they have better fish to fry.
I've passed cops in an adjacent lane doing 35-40 and they're just like whatever

We don't have predatory policing in UT like they do in CA so i'm not concerned. The one exception is the southern border where they will pull you over in a car for anything ( this is a drug smuggling route). Don't worry about me or worry for me.

So, what form factor is this new 19 ah battery? Is it a triangle similar to the old version? I assume they will keep making the same range of form factors, just UL certified.

neptronix said:

To be totally honest, i'm treated special because i helped them build their company back in 2011. They told me that these new models were just being tested and offered to get me one early. I would expect their listings to be updated in a few weeks.

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Unfortunately what happens is that when something like e-biking grows exponentially there will always be a bunch of yahoos that disregard common sense and courtesy which will lead to a crack down. I have biked a lot here on the C&O towpath and IIRC there is a 15 mph speed limit but you can safely ride faster on the isolated parts, pedal bike or e-bike. But when there are walkers, dogs, strollers, oncoming traffic, etc. you need to slow down and be courteous and make gentle passes. There will always be some who don't and won't and that's what will screw the pooch for the rest of us. In the past there were always a few lycra clad guys trying to time trial. But e-bikes open up those high speeds to the much more numerous rabble.

Another example is remote controlled aircraft, or radio control modeling. It was a great hobby for decades, but then along came drones that make it easy and cheap for even a 6 year old to fly. The exponential growth of that inevitably includes many less than responsible people. So, now we all have to deal with FAA registration, insurance and all that nonsense. It sucks, for sure.

neptronix said:

None of those laws are enforced here in my area, you would be surprised.
They got copy pasted in the 2010's and haven't changed since.

I see gas bikes all over trails. And generally nobody cares.
I see totally illegal gas mopeds and scooters here and there too, in the car lane even, cops don't care.
You can legally drive an ATV on the street in some counties.

Moab is very different than the Salt Lake area and has special ebike rules because it's a tourist town and bike snob town.

They've had ebike laws on the books for ages but the cops don't even know what an ebike is and they have better fish to fry.
I've passed cops in an adjacent lane doing 35-40 and they're just like whatever

We don't have predatory policing in UT like they do in CA so i'm not concerned. The one exception is the southern border where they will pull you over in a car for anything ( this is a drug smuggling route). Don't worry about me or worry for me.

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Raylo32, i hear you.

Where i live has the combination of awful weather that discourages most people from bicycling, a low population, and an above average percentage of nice people.

We don't have the 'packs of ebikers behaving badly' problem out here and 100% of my high speed riding is on street while pedaling in the first place, I cut the motor when i'm around people and give them a wide berth so i don't have 'trail problems' but >90% of my riding is street.

Nobody cares about your illegal 2 wheeler out here and as long as you don't ride like a jerk with yours, you won't have issues.
You can also have an insanely modified gas or diesel car here. They will only bust you for it when the EPA forces them to do it.

I'm just saying for every place that has ended up with draconian ebike laws, there's another 9 places that don't care about your bicycle at all.

I agree. Nobody really cares here yet, either. But things can change.

neptronix said:

Nobody cares about your illegal 2 wheeler out here and as long as you don't ride like a jerk with yours, you won't have issues.
You can also have an insanely modified gas or diesel car here. They will only bust you for it when the EPA forces them to do it.

I'm just saying for every place that has ended up with draconian ebike laws, there's another 9 places that don't care about your bicycle at all.

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Things can change but my attitude is that freedom is an endangered species ( & you can't do anything about this ) so you better enjoy it to the fullest while you still have it.

Look forward to hot rodding this motor but i would also like to quiet it down to maintain a lower profile.

I have some experience with IGHs. Only one able to take full power of 1kw mid drives are 3 speeds, though shimano and legacy sachs / srams are way better then SA since the takeover by sunrace. The newer shimano 5 speed has supposedly been developped with middrives in mind and comes with an additional planetary cog so it would be worth a shot. I have an alfine 8 one a tweaked bbs02 for 5 years now and it works if you are very careful. Shift once at full power, and you can hear the axle dogs breaking... but once they are correctly engaged, they can take up to 1.2kw in my experience, but will wear off quicker. But in the end, 8 speed turns out to be way overkill for ebike use at that power level, you end up constantly shifting. I think 3 to 5 widely spaces gears are the future.

I think most people will be better served by a 7-speed cassette.


They are tough and will add 4mm to your chainline.

What's so tough about them?

I've been reading about bike drivetrains. It seems like 7 speed cassettes come in a big variety of strengths.

Some independent testing of chain wear indicates certain 12 speed chains by sram have the best durability against wear. I don't know how this would affect chain friction or sprocket longevity. But probably a good sign.



The cassette for these x01/xx1 is supposedly machined from a single block of steel and therefore it shouldn't have this classic issue of wearing the freehub body ( or whatever it's called ) when you have a powerful mid drive.

Surely there must be some 7 speed configuration that is stronger.


Paraffin wax seems to be a winner for reducing friction in pedal power applications.. but applying it frequently is a PITA.

If you go the way of the dual chainring with the lightest drive, picking a very low friction lube should help mitigate the negative of having to run two chains. Source: velolab ( paywalled link )




As for me, waiting on some emails from italy to confirm what i need to convert my drive to a dual chainwheel & still waiting on battery.

Chain wear depends little on quality and a lot on maintenance/use: a long chain rolling over large sprockets will distribute forces better and hence resist to wearing/elongation longer than a short chain on small cogs. But this becomes irrelevant is the chain is constantly full of dirt, as the tiny rock particles will grind through every roller in no time.

It seems to me you are way over complicating things. If low maintenance is what you are looking for, have a look at what the dutch did for the last half century. IGH + strong chain + chaincase, and what makes their chain "strong" is just using wider rollers, since IGHs do not require chain sideflexing: 1/8" instead of 3/32" or even thinner nowadays. If lightweight is what you are looking for, MTB stuff is the way to go, but will be super maintenance heavy and wear through in no time with 1kw+ I don't think you can have both.
As of wax, I'd be curious to take Chalo view on it, as my experience wasn't very good: while it's true that lubrication tends to last longer than with oil, it's also very stick yand attract dust like flies on fresh jelly and cleaning it is a real pain. Nowadays, I just use some cheap eco friendly oil that is easy to apply and decomposes fast in nature. Note that I have some sort of chaincase / chaincover on every bike, as it halves the cleaning frequency.

I'm just not willing to accept the low efficiency of IGHs in the range i can afford in exchange for durability that's far from proven.
Yes you may be able to convert 3-5 speed IGHs to an ATF bath to remove most of the efficiency penalty but that's a science experiment i've seen nobody do so it's a potential money pit.

We don't even know if the lightest bike mid drive is durable since this is the first batch of motors. I wouldn't be willing to pay 4 figures to get a 9x9 or rohloff into a wheel knowing that if the lightest drive doesn't work out, i have spent a ton of money on something i have no use for ( no other mid drive fits my requirements, so i would go right back to rear hub motors )

To me it would be way better to throw disposable sprockets and chains at this gearing problem for the time being until durability of the drive can be established.

Maybe wax isn't the way forward but there are at least some options to reduce chain friction. I think a chain protector is a very good addon to this plan.

Regarding chain lube, I stopped using lube since it keeps the flinty and sandy dust here on the wear surfaces and ends up wearing it *faster* than without it.

They still wear out, but since almost everything I use is someone else's already-used stuff with unknown histories, I just replace things when I start having problems with it. The last several years or more I have not put much power thru the pedal drivetrain, as most of it is provided by the hubmotors, but it still has to be working for the rare occasions where I have to put all my pedal power thru it for one reason or another.

I've broken, just with pedal power, an old SA 3speed IGH (not in the wheel, since that's a hubmotor; it's in the frame instead as a jackshaft). I never got around to taking it apart to see what broke. So far the old Sachs torpedo 3speed from the same era that replaced it has survived. I've worn thru a few chains on the short loop from the transfer shaft to the hub's freewheel, and one freewheel began to fail (jamming) from the accumulated grit inside it. Still working on the original long chain loops, from the pedals to the IGH and the IGH to the transfer axle input, after several years, but they are worn, and probably should have been replaced a while back. IIRC I'm using KMC 1/8" chain for all of it, purchased new for the purpose from a local bike shop, with the original lube cleaned out of it to prevent the dust from sticking to it.


Because I was so tired I forgot about it and was in a hurry to get it done while I could, I haven't yet cleaned the (very sticky) lube out of the new freewheel on the motor (had to get a new one becuase I couldn't get the old one off the old motor when I had to build a new wheel), so it's probably going to get pretty full of grindy contaminants before I get the chance to do so.

neptronix said:

I'm just not willing to accept the low efficiency of IGHs in the range i can afford in exchange for durability that's far from proven.

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Where did you get that from ? Here in Europe, there is a german study widely spread around. While it's true that under ideal conditions a new clean derailleur will beat any IGH, those conditions are very rarely met, so that in most everyday scenarios, efficiency between a good IGH and a derailleur is almost equal, and if you subtract maintenance over 10 years, a dutch bike with a 3 speed IGH and a completely enclosed chain will smoke away any fancy MTB.

But that's all when considerating pedal power alone; in this new age of ebikes, I think that the efficiency difference becomes irrelevant, since most of the work is done by the motor anyway. Here new parameters like ease of maintenance and sturdinest become more important, so that suddently IGHs which where discarded 15 years ago are now in demand again, like the infamous sachs torpedo 5p for tandems, while others become redondant, like the overpriced rohloff. Who needs 14 gears with a motor nowadays ? For the same reason, belts have become a decent option despite their lower efficiency and an abysmal eco-record, and I'm not talking about gates.

I think the best combination is an IGH integrated into a hub motor, like the tdcm grintech used to sell. It was unfortunately fit with one of the worst igh there is (SA 5speed) but I think there is still plenty of potential. For an instance, there is a little known chinese company that makes integrated motors with shimano IGHs that are actually pretty decent - I have one here - but super hard to get by.

Now back to your issue: I think that if low weight, low maintenance and high power is what you want, there is no way around a custom job like a left side belt drive on the rear wheel, like mxlemming and a couple of others did. Nothing beats the power to weight ration of those rc motors, and 3D printed belt drive parts are super lightweight. I moved past tinkering intensive project, but you might give it a try. And I'd definitely stay away from any company selling motors that claim to drive 1Kw+ just through 6 engaged teeth on a 10T cog for bike chain; just look at all those old projects on this forum (lightningrod!), or the evolution of cyclone and gng/cyc - they all moved to belts or 219h stronger chains.

Reference: Which Bicycle Gearbox Has The Highest Drive Efficiency? Rohloff, Pinion, Shimano - CYCLINGABOUT
Kettenschaltung = a derailleur system


Yeah speedhub is a bit less efficient than a deraileur.. and Shimanos are going to throw away ~10% of your power..

~10% more heat, 10% less range, 10% less top speed is not irrelevant to me and would be a real shame considering this might be the most efficient mid drive on the market ( since the astro drive is not available anymore )

I can look into a high reliability drivetrain option later once the motor is proven. The rohloff or 9x9 is probably the ticket.

The motor pinion on this drive could be a weak point for the higher powered versions of the drive, but it is easily replaceable and chain wrap should be better in the dual chainring configuration ( you probably want this in my 1000w version anyway ). No reason why it can't be improved in the future if it proves to be weak.

So it's the same study. Too bad Oehler did not include the best shimano ( 3 speed and alfine 8) and older sachs/sram hubs.

Yeah.. and also Shimano refuses to provide specifications to the public on these products.

To that i say, no specs, no buy..

Got an update from lightest HQ.

They're apparently releasing an update soon for the lightest which allows the firmware to be updated.
This means shipping the drive back to Italy for reprogramming shouldn't be a thing to make this double chainwheel thing work.

I ordered the superhero pack and the total cost was $200.