'lightest.bike' 1.7kg 1000w mid drive
- Thread starter Grantmac
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rivers
100 mW
I had the same problem; a lot of chainring wobble, as much as 3mm of lateral runout. The problem is there because of manufacturing errors in the right crank assembly. The assembly has two features: a square taper hole and a 35mm threaded boss that screws into the one-way bearing. The two features must be coaxial, i.e. share a common axis. If there is angular misalignment you will get wobble.
Bikee has a bandaid fix to override the problem. They have a video showing the fix. Sorry, I no longer have that video but ask them to send it. It involves the use of the 13 spacers.
Be aware that the fix brings some new problems that I can share with you later.
Bikee has a bandaid fix to override the problem. They have a video showing the fix. Sorry, I no longer have that video but ask them to send it. It involves the use of the 13 spacers.
Be aware that the fix brings some new problems that I can share with you later.
Interesting reply: You went for the friction issue, while I had rather weight and overall number of components in mind. My point is: if you already have the component, you might use it for gearing as well. Keeping system complexity as low as possible seems always a smart move. BTW $30 is also the price for a robust shimano derailleur here, and the rohloff tenisoner - rohloff beeing one of the few IGHs allowing for a wider gear range then a 7-8speed cassette - will cost you a lot more than that...
Wow Rivers, thanks for the extra information. And it certainly explains why my triple had no wobble. I’ve been so frustrated …and after waiting 3 1/2 years… Bikee has really been avoiding my questions. I can’t imagine where I would find room to put on 13 spacers. In the picture, it looks like they’re all put on the outside, which as I said earlier, precludes being able to put on the crank arm. I’d also be interested to know what other problems happen down the line. I’ve been debating whether or not to just live with it. Unfortunately, I’m using the short mount, so the wobble is awfully close to the torque sensor. I may play around and go to a 6th or 7th spacer on the outside, and see if that reduces the wobble. It sounds like you’ve found the sweet spot Nervagon. Thanks for the feedback!
rivers
100 mW
Yes, I used 10 spacers not 13.
rivers
100 mW
You have to decide if you can live with the wobble because that's the easiest path forward. I could not live with it. My chain was riding up on top a drive pinion's gear tooth about every four crank revs and then slamming back in place.
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nervagon
1 kW
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- Nov 18, 2020
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No, I tossed the Bikee crankset in the bin where it belongs because it was absolute shite, and I bought an HXR EasyShift crankset which is wonderful but hard to find these days. The HXR is a 2-piece crankset with an oversized axle and high-engagement freewheel with no slop.
Qwerkus, i'm a big fan of mechanical simplicity so i tend to be a DD fan. This is my second venture into mid drive territory. I'm learning a lot!
I also don't like the weight or cost.. the loss of top speed and battery power is bad enough!
Geez, so this is a multi-person experience eh... i'd personally be OK with eliminating the freewheel and just using a normal crank with throttle only. or swapping to some other unit.
Luckily a freewheeling crankset can be found designed both for regular bikes and ebikes.
Hope they fix it... at least the kit uses standard bike parts.
I also don't like the weight or cost.. the loss of top speed and battery power is bad enough!
Geez, so this is a multi-person experience eh... i'd personally be OK with eliminating the freewheel and just using a normal crank with throttle only. or swapping to some other unit.
Luckily a freewheeling crankset can be found designed both for regular bikes and ebikes.
Hope they fix it... at least the kit uses standard bike parts.
I am thinking of going with the freewheel from a Rocky mountain powerplay if the bikee turns out to not work well for me.
www.pro-mstore.com
It is for the RaceFace Cinch crank system.
This parts is available for purchase.
Here is a video of one changing a crankset like this on a Rocky mountain bike. He has a pressfit bottom bracket, but you get threaded bottom brackts for this system as well.
On my bike i have a 30mm axle already so i can use the bottom bracket i have, but i will need a race face axle, cranks and this rocky mountain spider.
ROCKY MOUNTAIN SPIDER CLUTCH RACE FACE FOR POWERPLAY - Pro-M Store
ROCKY MOUNTAIN SPIDER CLUTCH RACE FACE FOR POWERPLAY. Large assortment of Rocky Mountain accessories and spare parts at Pro-M Store. Shipping in 48/72 hours.
www.pro-mstore.com
This parts is available for purchase.
On my bike i have a 30mm axle already so i can use the bottom bracket i have, but i will need a race face axle, cranks and this rocky mountain spider.
nervagon
1 kW
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- Nov 18, 2020
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I got mine on ebay. HXR is still around, but it seems the original easyshift crankset is discontinued, and they are working on a next generation crankset. I have no idea if/when that will be available, but they teased a new model 11 months ago.
The options for good freewheeling cranksets are slim-to-none ATM.
nervagon
1 kW
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The pinion gear doesn't back-turn. If you were to backpedal at all, you could drop the chain and/experience other jarring weirdness without a freewheel. Bikee also forbids it, and I think it will void your warranty. Also, keep in mind that the motor is quite powerful and can get ahead of you, and when that happens the chainring needs to be able to outpace your pedals. Trust me, throttle only, and no freewheel would be a very bad experience.
Hm, in my case, i'm designing it so that the motor can't outpace my pedals; bikee says my pedaling cadence should be 80rpm.
The pinion does move in reverse, just with the resistance of 2 gears and a motor.
True
The pinion does move in reverse, just with the resistance of 2 gears and a motor.
True
nervagon
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Here's my final impressions on the lightest kit. I'll start with positives, then negatives, and then a summary.
Positives:
Strong motor with good performance
Best performance to weight ratio available
Narrow Q-factors can be achieved
Flexible mounting positions/configurations
Negatives:
Very loud
Very conspicuous on bike, even with the shortest mounts
Subpar torque sensing
Complicated installation process with lots of tiny loose parts and requires soldering skills
Subpar cranks, bottom bracket, freewheel spider
The motor mounts are too oversized for the 6mm hex bolts included in the kit, resulting in needless slop.
The mounting brackets add 6mm of width to your bottom bracket shell, reducing options for standard bottom brackets
Good to know:
The motor comes locked from the factory, and will remain locked until you contact Bikee to get a special code that grants access.
The motor ships with a hard-coded speed governor set to 20mph that can only be bypassed buy purchasing an additional unlock code called "Race Button."
The throttle requires an additional unlock code to be purchased called "Superhero."
It would be good to have a bearing press to set up the bottom bracket included in the kit. You will receive a spindle, loose bearings, and spacers. You will need to press the bearings onto the spindle races without damaging them. I used a pipe and a rubber mallet.
You will receive a 3-pin MT30 plug for your battery to plug into the port on the non-drive side of the motor casing. You will need to tin and solder this to your battery cable. Bikee recommends 14 gauge wire for the battery plug. This is because it faces straight out into plastic cover that makes for a very tight fit. I used 12 gauge wire which did work, but resulted in the MT30 pins bending slighting under the pressure of the plastic cover.
The plug cover appears to be designed to collect dust and mud. It has large openings front and back that leave empty plug sockets exposed to the elements. The plug sockets might be potted/waterproof, but it is still a questionable design. The plugs are very small, and cleaning dirt out of them would be a pain. There is a very small drainage port at the base of the plug cover to prevent water from pooling, but it feels like a band-aid on a bad concept. This can be mitigated by sealing the openings up with sugru or similar after installation.
My chain guard had to be modified with a file to prevent the chain from catching on it when shifted into my 50T lowest gear of my cassette.
If you have a 68mm bottom bracket, the motor mounts will turn it into a 74mm bottom bracket. You might be able to fit some 73mm standard bottom brackets.
If you have a 73mm bottom bracket, the motor mounts will turn it into a 79mm bottom bracket. With an addition 2mm of spacers on each side, you should be able to fit a standard downhill 83mm bottom bracket.
The motor extends a great length out from your bottom bracket, giving gravity and impact forces a lot of leverage. I think Bikee should design a clever anti-sag mount that attaches to the front motor mount and braces it to the downtube. There is big ol' through hole sticking off the front of the motor casing. Use it!
You can mitigate the motor mounting slop with these:
An alternative freewheeling crankset confirmed by me to work very well with the Bikee Lightest motor kit is the HXR EasyShift:
www.pinkbike.com
If you are lucky enough to have a 68mm bottom bracket, then chances are that the HXR crankset will fit, but...
The motor mounts from Bikee were not designed to fit external bearing cups. I modified mine on a mill to make more clearance, but most people likely won't have access to such equipment.
I will edit this post with more thoughts if when I get more time.
Positives:
Strong motor with good performance
Best performance to weight ratio available
Narrow Q-factors can be achieved
Flexible mounting positions/configurations
Negatives:
Very loud
Very conspicuous on bike, even with the shortest mounts
Subpar torque sensing
Complicated installation process with lots of tiny loose parts and requires soldering skills
Subpar cranks, bottom bracket, freewheel spider
The motor mounts are too oversized for the 6mm hex bolts included in the kit, resulting in needless slop.
The mounting brackets add 6mm of width to your bottom bracket shell, reducing options for standard bottom brackets
Good to know:
The motor comes locked from the factory, and will remain locked until you contact Bikee to get a special code that grants access.
The motor ships with a hard-coded speed governor set to 20mph that can only be bypassed buy purchasing an additional unlock code called "Race Button."
The throttle requires an additional unlock code to be purchased called "Superhero."
It would be good to have a bearing press to set up the bottom bracket included in the kit. You will receive a spindle, loose bearings, and spacers. You will need to press the bearings onto the spindle races without damaging them. I used a pipe and a rubber mallet.
You will receive a 3-pin MT30 plug for your battery to plug into the port on the non-drive side of the motor casing. You will need to tin and solder this to your battery cable. Bikee recommends 14 gauge wire for the battery plug. This is because it faces straight out into plastic cover that makes for a very tight fit. I used 12 gauge wire which did work, but resulted in the MT30 pins bending slighting under the pressure of the plastic cover.
The plug cover appears to be designed to collect dust and mud. It has large openings front and back that leave empty plug sockets exposed to the elements. The plug sockets might be potted/waterproof, but it is still a questionable design. The plugs are very small, and cleaning dirt out of them would be a pain. There is a very small drainage port at the base of the plug cover to prevent water from pooling, but it feels like a band-aid on a bad concept. This can be mitigated by sealing the openings up with sugru or similar after installation.
My chain guard had to be modified with a file to prevent the chain from catching on it when shifted into my 50T lowest gear of my cassette.
If you have a 68mm bottom bracket, the motor mounts will turn it into a 74mm bottom bracket. You might be able to fit some 73mm standard bottom brackets.
If you have a 73mm bottom bracket, the motor mounts will turn it into a 79mm bottom bracket. With an addition 2mm of spacers on each side, you should be able to fit a standard downhill 83mm bottom bracket.
The motor extends a great length out from your bottom bracket, giving gravity and impact forces a lot of leverage. I think Bikee should design a clever anti-sag mount that attaches to the front motor mount and braces it to the downtube. There is big ol' through hole sticking off the front of the motor casing. Use it!
You can mitigate the motor mounting slop with these:
An alternative freewheeling crankset confirmed by me to work very well with the Bikee Lightest motor kit is the HXR EasyShift:
Review: HXR's Easy Shift Crankset Changes Gears Without Pedaling - Pinkbike
HXR's Easy Shift crankset places a freewheel in your cranks, and blocks the wheel's freehub, allowing you to shift at any time when rolling or pedaling.
The motor mounts from Bikee were not designed to fit external bearing cups. I modified mine on a mill to make more clearance, but most people likely won't have access to such equipment.
I will edit this post with more thoughts if when I get more time.
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Some addendum..
- I ordered a kit with the offroad option and there is supposed to be no speed limiter in this case.
- I didn't need a bearing press to get the bearing on the BB, just pressure from tightening the BB was enough.
- Torque sensing is tuneable, not sure if this requires the superhero pack or not to tune - nobody has tried.
- I don't see/feel any slop in the assembly, but i have not ran the motor. I would prefer a top mount just to be sure.
- The bottom bracket problem is very real. Watch the chain in this video the company published:
- I ordered a kit with the offroad option and there is supposed to be no speed limiter in this case.
- I didn't need a bearing press to get the bearing on the BB, just pressure from tightening the BB was enough.
- Torque sensing is tuneable, not sure if this requires the superhero pack or not to tune - nobody has tried.
- I don't see/feel any slop in the assembly, but i have not ran the motor. I would prefer a top mount just to be sure.
- The bottom bracket problem is very real. Watch the chain in this video the company published:
nervagon
1 kW
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2020
- Messages
- 351
@neptronix the 20mph governor is hard-coded. It cannot be increased. Only temporarily bypassed with "Race Button." I also ordered the offroad (double-checked my invoice), and had no "Race Button," and was hard limited to 20mph in the settings. You could try and set the speed limit higher, but it wouldn't take. It appears the firmware itself has been set to 20mph max.
The extent of my fussing with the torque sensing was carefully going through the calibration process 3 times. I would love feedback from other riders that have the bikee kit and experience with high-end torque sensing bikes. I can't be the only one that thought it had no modulation? It sounds like the rrrr-rrrr-rrrr-rrrr lack of fluidity can be improved, but can the lack of modulation? There is just no contest between the Bikee and Photon when it comes to ride feel.
Once you fit the motor with the Delrin sleeves I linked above, you'll get it. It's perfectly snug and secure.
Yes, and you need to in order to fully participate, otherwise you are playing armchair quarterback here. You have spent a lot of time wishful thinking on a kit you have never tried simply because you want it to be the unicorn... well, your unicorn might not exist.
Whatever is happening in that video clip with the chain never happened with my HXR EasyShift. I had no chain skipping, bobbing, shaking, whatever is going on there. I might have had the best possible experience with the Lightest Kit, because the HXR crankset is very robust. In fact, with my custom front mount, everything was completely secure. There was no flex or weirdness anywhere. I didn't appreciate how well I had it with my custom setup compared to others struggling with the square-taper freewheel.
The extent of my fussing with the torque sensing was carefully going through the calibration process 3 times. I would love feedback from other riders that have the bikee kit and experience with high-end torque sensing bikes. I can't be the only one that thought it had no modulation? It sounds like the rrrr-rrrr-rrrr-rrrr lack of fluidity can be improved, but can the lack of modulation? There is just no contest between the Bikee and Photon when it comes to ride feel.
Once you fit the motor with the Delrin sleeves I linked above, you'll get it. It's perfectly snug and secure.
Yes, and you need to in order to fully participate, otherwise you are playing armchair quarterback here. You have spent a lot of time wishful thinking on a kit you have never tried simply because you want it to be the unicorn... well, your unicorn might not exist.
Whatever is happening in that video clip with the chain never happened with my HXR EasyShift. I had no chain skipping, bobbing, shaking, whatever is going on there. I might have had the best possible experience with the Lightest Kit, because the HXR crankset is very robust. In fact, with my custom front mount, everything was completely secure. There was no flex or weirdness anywhere. I didn't appreciate how well I had it with my custom setup compared to others struggling with the square-taper freewheel.
raylo32
100 kW
LOL... getting a Lightest Bike mid drive is the e-bike equivalent of wearing a hair shirt and self flagellating. But I do enjoy reading most of this anyway.
rhauff
100 mW
Thanks for breakng the ice that seems to have formed... @neptronix looking forward to you getting the battery and other parts to see how it goes for you. Any learning you do (as well as @nervagon and others) will help mine go better when it show up!
Thanks for the encouragement!
I heard back from em3ev just today, saying it will be 2 more weeks - it's gone out the factory and is in their multi stage shipping process.
I'm exhausted w/this thread until then and talking about so many theoretical things, but not with the idea of finding a way to make this drive work. More from me later.
I heard back from em3ev just today, saying it will be 2 more weeks - it's gone out the factory and is in their multi stage shipping process.
I'm exhausted w/this thread until then and talking about so many theoretical things, but not with the idea of finding a way to make this drive work. More from me later.
nervagon
1 kW
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2020
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- 351
It's probably a good time for me to bow out too. And with that, I hope the new em3ev battery works out well for ya, and that your build comes together as planned. As @raylo32 says, it has still been an interesting thread full of drama, mystery, excitement, disappointment, intrigue and lots of back-of-the-napkin math.
raylo32
100 kW
This is the most interesting part of all this, to me. I use EM3EV batteries and would love to see where they are taking them. I hope the UL ratings don't drive prices up too much.
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