1st build no torque?

[JBanksy]

Right people excuse any mistake but this is day 4 2 am of build and struggling for new things to try to sort out my problem

Ok here's where I'm at

Done docs bionx rebuild opened up pulled controller out ground down axel fitted 3 12 awg wires plus 5 hall wires even fitted temp sensor. I'm using a lyen 12fet controller and 66.6v 10ah 10c lipo v2.3 cycle analyst all on a trek frame. I'm got motor to spin flys when wheel in air but when sit on doesn't pull me at same speed no where near the power of original system.

I have a tested and can confirm all halls are working ok got tester at same time as controller

I have tried all 72 combinations off hall and phase (36) twice and came up with 6 combinations that move wheel forward 3 noisier and 3 quiet.
Q. Is there 1 best or are all 3 of the working combinations the same? Is the quietest config nessaraly the best?

Showing 70v on screen when hold wheel off floor spins really fast but when try ride don't go anywhere fast at all tried adjusting the settings rated current from 7 to 100 and phase between 30 and 300a doesn't seem to make a difference?

Scratching my head as run out of options haven't hooked up speedo to CA that won't make a difference will it? As have no magnet lol.

When on bike CA showing 800w 11a or around that, but leaves are overtaking me on a path and the slightest up hill I'm slowing to a stop.before bike used to throw me off back if leaned back hard.in air says 120w at full speed with no load once span up

What I'm a missing as lost power not gained from my 4 sleepless days of motor rebuilding I do have a 18 fet and 24 fet around but sure my 12fet should make more power than that?

More info to help
Motor new came off and unused bike that had never been rode batt pack didn't survive storage couple yrs but hub and frame did got 2 motors so got
I have never used the CA before is there settings in there?
Also on test run motor feels like pulseing really slow like feel the power comes in waves be it little waves like pull pull nothing nothing pull pull all very weak

Used castle connections and soldered phase wires to motor wires inside hub and sheafed

Help me as no sleep making me contemplate trying to set on fire and watch it burn see if this helps as I'm stumped now can't think what else to try I'm I using to many volts? Why won't the watt go up when increse phase amps?

What I'm I missing e brake working throttle working tried spare and same

 

[Drunkskunk]

Sounds like you got a false positive on your hall/phase combo. That's causing it to run too fast and not at the right time. you need to check your no-load amps, and your speed. With the wheel spinning in the air, how fast is it, and how many amps are you pulling? If it's close to 10 amps with the wheel in the air, its a false positive. keep trying.

 

[JBanksy]

What is false positive? I have a setting says slip charge = only fake indica that anything to do with it? Got 2 hubs just bought 30 hall sensors as broke 1 in other taking apart fort best to have some spares

What do I need to change to solve a false positive ?

 

[gwhy!1]

A false positive means you have the incorrect Hall/phase combination, so you need to go over all he combinations again to double check... what are your settings on your controller? have you reprogrammed it at some point.

 

[JBanksy]

Did some post searching new term added to memory bank :wink:
Right got a list of all combo and results had 6 that gave forward movement 3 wer louder and 3 seemed the same tyres all 3 of good combos well now I'm typeing tried 2 under load will try 3rd under load now see if any different but fort all 3 would work same as seq was Same just moved over Y G B one GBY other with 120 degree halls fort would have 3 states that run the same?
......
Tried all combos again when freewheel it drawing between 1a and 1.8a on the CA and moving between the 3 fast
The wheel can't tell how fast as lost magnet but will buy 1 so can accurate but for now it looks like the wheel is spinning at least 35mph maybe even higher I can't catch up spinning pedal as fast as I can by hand so assuming its high 30s 40 as a race bike done 30 mph pedalling fast down a hill at that pace

My program parameters at moment are as follows but tried many many diff combos
Sensor 120 deg
phase 70
Rated 25.5
Low 50v
Tolerance 1v
Regen v 75
Block time 0.1
Gaurd level low
Drive saving none
1+1 choice true
Pas start pulse 03
1+1 max spd 100
Auto cruse 15s
Slip charge mode only fake indicator
Ebs level 0
Limit cruse no

Bat reading 67v on CA tried every combo
I did rebuild myself could I have done something wrong? 3 phase wires 12 awg ,5 hall wires positive negative and 3 signal wires

Can't think of anything else can try

Is it possible it damaged winding trying on a fake positive?
Got my lyen tester hard to figure out how to use it can this help me in any way? up to now used it and got 3 blinking hall lights in a row 1 then off then 2 then off then 3 then off all in order

Will try anything just point me in a direction as combos got list checked it thrice got all working combos still no torque

Got temp sensor side hub got as hot as 35oC testing so don't think there be damage inside hub?

Not easy hub to open involves despoke and respoke every time press

Got 2nd hub opening up and cutting holes in to help with cooling so can try this 1 when I'm finished but both same can't see it being any different
Any more ideas guys and gals

 

[JBanksy]

Right did some not some further tests although the tester shows hall working the voltage from the sensors are 5.01 for 2 the 3rd seems to be switching 4.85v still lights bulb in tester but could this b the issue?

 

[John in CR]

All 3 of the good smooth forward combinations are the same. Verify low current with no-load (wheel off the ground and WOT, Wide Open Throttle).

Disconnect the CA, since yes it has settings and can override your current. CA's also must be calibrated to the correct shunt resistance for accurate info on current. The CA could be your problem.

I think most hubmotors are 120deg, but set the phase angle to the 3rd selection anyway so it automatically knows. Depending on the motor, it might spin up fast but have no torque with the wrong phase angle.

For future reference it is absolutely never necessary to try all wiring combinations. There are good instructions in the ES wiki, but it boils down to that there are 6 valid combinations for the motor itself (that means the motor inside if it's a geared hubbie). 3 are forward and 3 are reverse. Every hall combination has 1 valid phase combo of the 6 possible, AND every phase combo has 1 valid hall combo of the 6 possible. That "valid" could be one of the 3 reverses or the 3 forwards. If it spins the wrong way, simply swap 2, only 2, any 2 of the wires you were keeping static and go back and find the combo for forward. Where people get in trouble is swapping both halls and phases at the same time. Just keep one static and you'll find a good forward or reverse within 6 tries, guaranteed or something else is wrong.

My guess would be the CA programmed speed limit or current limit is kicking in, so disconnect it first and give the bike a try.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm thinking the same thing, It's the CA. The smooth combinations should be the ones that are all good.

Get it running good without the CA plugged in, to confirm the suspicion.

 

[JBanksy]

Tried with out CA and no joy .it's drawing 1a WOT freewheeling and wheel spinning at 40mph ish pulls me but really slow it's smooth when free wheeling but when add load gets loud and struggles. gearless bionx hub

Hall. A 5.01v B 5.01v C 4.85v all switching but y 1 different I have halls means a trip to bike shop if take hub off to spoke but have a lot of hall sensors just don't want to open if having a hall reading 0.16v lower than other sensors is normal or will this cause a problem? I got to right combo pretty quickly to begin with just when no torque fort must have been what I've learned to be a fake positive now sure it is not problem neither is it CA I'm left with that low v hall sensor reading or connections inside of hub?? Unless anything else can think of I can try that gear puller coming in handy now "says loudly to the mrs"

 

[teklektik]

Got 2 hubs just bought 30 hall sensors as broke 1 in other taking apart fort best to have some spares

Hall. A 5.01v B 5.01v C 4.85v all switching but y 1 different I have halls means a trip to bike shop if take hub off to spoke but have a lot of hall sensors just don't want to open if having a hall reading 0.16v lower than other sensors is normal or will this cause a problem?

Electrically, the low hall value should be fine - the difference may be from the hall you replaced which may be a different type - which is okay. You mention that you have a tester. For a quick test without a scope - if the hall LEDs all light up about the same when you spin the wheel rapidly, you 'should' be all set.

I'm using a lyen 12fet controller and 66.6v 10ah 10c lipo v2.3 cycle analyst all on a trek frame.

My program parameters at moment are as follows but tried many many diff combos
Sensor 120 deg
phase 70
Rated 25.5
Low 50v
Tolerance 1v
Regen v 75
Block time 0.1
Gaurd level low
Drive saving none
1+1 choice true
Pas start pulse 03
1+1 max spd 100
Auto cruse 15s
Slip charge mode only fake indicator
Ebs level 0
Limit cruse no

Which board profile are you using for the programmer? Is this a new relatively new controller with the doubled shunts? If so, you should be using the EB318 profile.

A rule of thumb would set the phase amps at about 2.5x the rated amps - 3x seems pretty high. This isn't the source of your present issue - but just saying...
EDIT - hmm - okay - 2.7x - not so bad...

Also - I see your block time is set to 0.1s. This is what might be expected for a geared motor, but for a DD, you have disabled the boost on getaway needed to get things rolling. Someone with DD experience (I have none) might comment here but you might jack that up to a few seconds or so and see if the bike launches a little better - just a guess.

Do you have the CA shunt calibrated? If so, what kind of Amps are you drawing on launch, shortly thereafter, and running flat out? It's good to know that the motor isn't developing any power, but it's not clear if it's starving or dumping the amps as heat.

 

[GCinDC]

I'm using a lyen 12fet controller and 66.6v 10ah 10c lipo

is it a 72V controller? if so, 66.6v would be pretty low unless it was programmed accordingly..

 

[teklektik]

Also - what are your 'Speed' settings? Are you sure you are getting 99% speed by default?

 

[JBanksy]

I was using eb312 just tried on 318 going slower now did get bigger pulse felt like had more torque for mili second now gone won't spin fast well after few revs won't spin at all dropped to 65v my bat pack so going to fully charge to 75v see how does maybe need more volts for controller did try on 44v and wouldn't work at all.
Spoke with Edward said controller configured for 50-80v long shot but did get sensation on the last test that the battery just died as no longer spinng wheel just making that cool sound like digital supercharger but no movement

Speed limit 99
Switch 0
Default speed 0:speed1
Speed 1 100
""" 2 100
""" 3 100
""" 4 100
Indicate mode 0 comm VCC
Converse speed 35

My hall sensors in this hub are all original just waiting for Aproxy to set on my 2nd hub replaced all halls so to clarify.
This hub is all same sensors making me think May be a fault that drop in voltage is showing.
when 2nd hub set will eliminate this theory save splitting hub again

Other than that I ordered with reinforced traces so I should use eb318? What are other board types how can i be sure I have right one?

I'm drawing 1a freewheel WOT
Upto 12 when sit on bike but move pulsey and slow then drops down don't get over 7mph
I have temp sensors max seen is high 30s 40 degrees C when tired on road still always had a pulsey feel like on off with power can't seem to understand block time what is this setting for?

 

[JBanksy]

Adjusted phase to 55
Rated to 20 for charged
need to get bigger charger 2hrs to charge and stil only upto 23.6v this is just 1. need a bulk charger got 3 to do as well half a day either my charger pathetic 1.7a goes upto even tho set to max 6a? Or my battery's were dead. Anyway taking to work can charge in office while work can keep eye on then 25.2 charger says will end on 75.6 total see if needs over 72v to work.
And the spark scary when connect remember reading bout some kind of capacitor switch will search through forum let's stay on topic just if know if that's what there called?
Enough head scratching 4 1day going to rest my bald patch that starting in hair from constant head scratching all fun tho learning more from problem than would of if just worked way I'm looking at situation with the help from all of you thanks all

Anything you want any readings have good multimeter and all the will in the world

...just wanted to test that all light blinked right and now seem like I am missing a hall to late to go over connections but looks like this May b a problem was defiantly 3 working when tested before could it of been going out and I measured it as was failing ? Will test again when batt powered up with tester and multi meter is early hours and few sleepless nights attack it in the am

 

[teklektik]

I was using eb312 just tried on 318 going slower now did get bigger pulse felt like had more torque for mili second now gone won't spin fast .

Other than that I ordered with reinforced traces so I should use eb318? What are other board types how can i be sure I have right one?

I was using eb312 just tried on 318 going slower now did get bigger pulse felt like had more torque for mili second now gone won't spin fast .

Other than that I ordered with reinforced traces so I should use eb318? What are other board types how can i be sure I have right one?
Upto 12 when sit on bike but move pulsey and slow then drops down don't get over 7mph

Board type is EB3<#ofFETs> so yours is EB312. But, Lyen modifies boards so the EB312 profile may not be quite right:

• Talk with Lyen and see what profile you should be using. If you controller has double shunts you will need to use the EB318 profile so the current settings on the screen are correct - using EB312 in that case will cause the controller to use double the settings (e.g. set to 25A = 50A). But - if you have only a single shunt (normal), then EB312 is correct. This happens because the normal shunts for EB312/EB318 boards are different and the profile causes the program to take that into account. Using the 'wrong' setting (EB318) makes the screen settings correct for a modified EB312 board. Slightly confusing, but Lyen should be able to clear it up for you.

can't seem to understand block time what is this setting for?

Block time is the number of seconds that the controller is allowed to run on getaway using the non-programmable second current limit that is determined by board type - this limit is so high as to be essentially unlimited. For this period the programmable current limits are suppressed or 'blocked'. This allows DD motors to get a huge current boost to get rolling from a dead stop because they have poor torque at very low rpm. After the block time, the programmed limits come into play for normal prolonged running.

Folks with a gear motor or with an insanely powerful DD motor/controller may set the block time as small as possible to protect gears or prevent wheelies respectively. More modestly powered DD will specify some number of seconds to get a good launch so the motor will have some time to get up to a speed where the programmed current can produce usable torque.

BTW - Your speed settings look okay.

 

[John in CR]

Since it's a gearless hubbie it can't be the clutch slipping. Not the CA...probably not the throttle since getting to 40mph no load. Wiring combo sounds right with smooth start and low current at WOT no load.

If the controller settings are fine, and you aren't a large person expecting way more than the system can deliver then it leads me to a bad wire or connection on the power wires somewhere in the pathway. That could be battery mains in the series connections to all the way inside the controller, or a bad phase wire or connection from in the controller to inside the motor. A bad connection can seem fine no load, but can't pass the current well under load, so the system is starved of current and is noisy with poor acceleration. Check connectors first obviously.

Why was a hall changed? Was this motor abused? If so, were the hall wires changed too? I had one motor that got overheated and damaged the hall wire insulation. It exhibited symptoms similar to yours but more as it warmed up after I changed a bad hall but didn't change the hall wires.

 

[JBanksy]

Since it's a gearless hubbie it can't be the clutch slipping. Not the CA...probably not the throttle since getting to 40mph no load. Wiring combo sounds right with smooth start and low current at WOT no load.

If the controller settings are fine, and you aren't a large person expecting way more than the system can deliver then it leads me to a bad wire or connection on the power wires somewhere in the pathway. That could be battery mains in the series connections to all the way inside the controller, or a bad phase wire or connection from in the controller to inside the motor. A bad connection can seem fine no load, but can't pass the current well under load, so the system is starved of current and is noisy with poor acceleration. Check connectors first obviously.

Why was a hall changed? Was this motor abused? If so, were the hall wires changed too? I had one motor that got overheated and damaged the hall wire insulation. It exhibited symptoms similar to yours but more as it warmed up after I changed a bad hall but didn't change the hall wires.

This motor hall wasn't changed was my 2nd hub that I damaged 1 taking board out of inside of hub dint realise and broke a leg.
Motors all new been in storage few years battery's weren't stored properly so didn't hold a charge using castle connections all round so leaves me to think could be my soldering inside hub?

And just retested now I'm missing a hall sensor so need to open hub again anyway

The bike has a bionx set up on it used to pull me up to 20mph hard on original 350w setup. I'm 90kg cant seem to upload pics or vids so will to youtube so can understands my problem more well after change a hall in it it seems this pickling me

 

[dogman dan]

Do take a peek at those connections for the power wires.

A fast winding dd motor is pretty gutless off the line. Be interesting to see what happens, if you had a generic 20 amps sensorless controller around.

 

[JBanksy]

Long night with great success rebuilt my 2nd motor changed all 3 halls put on casing fired up and bam we got power can't choke down the motor by hand or foot so see so like getting right torque now made some air slits in this 1 and made blades to fan air in and out holes in other side just. Need to grind me a proper torque arm as already slipped from the press on nut that was hammered bk on mite need a press but already can't see how could press without crushing motor case or bending axel any ideas or am I worrying and casing will withstand the press.

Seems was a hall sensor fault after all just was giving readings when broke assume was on its way out

Next mission is to lean how to spoke rim properly as bike shop cleaning up with the amount of times he's re done it

 

[JBanksy]

Also now only using .0.6a WOT maybe lower becus no rim weight and seems like can make motor spin a lot slower and more controlled now really slow wen just tap and smooth think on to a winner can't wait to spoke it up and try