2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Interesting. At what voltage & current? Luna claims 50 Nm (I assume at 52V/20A) but they also claim that the windings were custom designed to handle a 52V battery.

If the 2-speed hub tops out at around 15 mph, that's like 1st gear in a GNG mid drive setup, which has quite a bit of hill climbing ability.

I was actually thinking of putting 2 of those on my trailer (one on each side). I wonder if I would run out of traction with a 100 lb load. Maybe I should use 2 Amazon DDs at 26A each instead? I don't know what to do. I was thinking about using a couple 40A Cyclone controllers to increase the torque if 26A wasn't enough (51A combined). Total load to be towed is 600 lbs+.

knutselmaaster said:
XiongDa claims 70Nm of torque in low gear.
Click to expand...
 
Well, I was communicating with XiongDa a few weeks ago about the different motors they have, and we talked about the 36v version. So that claim should refer to that version, which has a controller that gives about 15A max.
Personally I don't value Nm values that much as there is (as far as I know of) no standard measurement and there are never any other relevant informations given (like voltage, amperage, rotation speed, wheel size)

As far as the Luna version concerns, I doubt that they have the test equipment to measure torque, I assume that they have just estimated that value. (correct me if I'm wrong)
 
The test motor wheel Luna provided is a front wheel setup for standard rim brakes, so it doesn't require extra fork dropout width (or at least very little). The forks I have are steel.

Max Torque values depend on diameter, width, permanent magnet field strength, magnetic pathways, copper volume, gap - the mechanical motor configuration.

The voltage/current depend on the winding wire size and turn count, but Max Torque doesn't change, as long as you can deliver the required current. Stall torque is pretty easy to measure with a cord and weight on an empty rim.

Two Xiongda's are pretty light, two DD motors is a lot of weight, plus two 26A controllers and a heavy high current battery (52A plus capable). More available torque with DD, but traction may be insufficient to take advantage of it. Current to reach this torque will be much higher with DD. Think of DD as a heavy, high power system that will have high speed capacity vs geared as a torquey light low current system that will be more suitable for low speed but run out of steam or overheat at higher speeds. How fast do you want to go with trailer?

Dual wheel electric braking on the trailer would be awesome, but you need to adjust it to trailer weight.

Shorting the motor phase wires will produce excessive braking, and likely blow the controllers. I would go for controllers that had easily adjustable regen, or better yet - variable braking. A pair of PhaseRunners (or equivalent) would be ideal.

The other possibility is to install two rear brake levers, one for the bike and one for the trailer. Use the trailer one if the trailer is onboard, if not use the bike's. Make the trailer one drive dual brakes (they have these for either cable or hydraulic systems for trikes) and make the lever and hoses/cables easily removable to stay with the trailer.

You could set up the bike braking system (front and rear) to actuate off the front wheel lever. This is done on some motorcycles.
 
Alan B said:
Max Torque values depend on diameter, width, permanent magnet field strength, magnetic pathways, copper volume, gap - the mechanical motor configuration.

The voltage/current depend on the winding wire size and turn count, but Max Torque doesn't change, as long as you can deliver the required current. Stall torque is pretty easy to measure with a cord and weight on an empty rim.
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
I would love to be able to measure torque to be able to verify the accuracy of the motor characteristics given by manufacturers, test bikes that I repair and properly inform my customers. Do you know of any reliable source on the net where I can learn more about this?
 
The physics sites that talk about torque, radius and force would be a good place to start. It is fairly basic. For this you would want an easy way to increase/decrease the weight to find the stall weight, and then calculating torque is straightforward from weight and radius. We were doing this to compare pottery wheel motor controller designs at my first electronics workplace, a very long time ago.
 
robocam said:
If the 2-speed hub tops out at around 15 mph, that's like 1st gear in a GNG mid drive setup, which has quite a bit of hill climbing ability.

I was actually thinking of putting 2 of those on my trailer (one on each side). I wonder if I would run out of traction with a 100 lb load. Maybe I should use 2 Amazon DDs at 26A each instead? I don't know what to do. I was thinking about using a couple 40A Cyclone controllers to increase the torque if 26A wasn't enough (51A combined). Total load to be towed is 600 lbs+.

knutselmaaster said:
XiongDa claims 70Nm of torque in low gear.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Woo - u sure about that? Things could get radical on the trailer if shifts are not precisely in sync.
 
The non-disc brake Xiongda is 100/135mm. I wish Luna also sold these sizes. The dropouts on my (aluminum) trailer are 100mm wide, but I've been thinking about making a steel adapter to use a different width. But I did notice that If I reverse the dropout brackets, the width is 148mm, so I toyed with the idea of mounting a rear wheel in there.

I'm not too concerned about the weight of the DDs because the load I'm carrying is much heavier. I'm more concerned about the drag of a DD. I was thinking about using 2 mighty mini 52V batteries (or making something like that myself with 25r or 30q cells). I will only activate the motors when I'm going up a hill that my Cyclone 3000-equipped bike cannot handle (due to loss of traction), so a large capacity battery isn't necessary. I only need it to go up to around 10 mph.

To protect the controllers, I could disconnect the phase wires (maybe with a relay?) from the controller when they're shorted. To adjust the braking, I could add power resistors. Is there a link you could show me of the controllers that have adjustable regen braking?

I've included a photo of what I'm trying to accomplish. The setup will grow to 6+ trailers. The trailers in the photo don't include the one with the 100mm dropouts. The red trailers have steel frames, so I'm thinking about welding some extra material to one of them so that they can accommodate a regular front wheel so that I can motorize another one if I need to.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86944

Thanks so much for the information and ideas!

file.php


Alan B said:
The test motor wheel Luna provided is a front wheel setup for standard rim brakes, so it doesn't require extra fork dropout width (or at least very little). The forks I have are steel.

Max Torque values depend on diameter, width, permanent magnet field strength, magnetic pathways, copper volume, gap - the mechanical motor configuration.

The voltage/current depend on the winding wire size and turn count, but Max Torque doesn't change, as long as you can deliver the required current. Stall torque is pretty easy to measure with a cord and weight on an empty rim.

Two Xiongda's are pretty light, two DD motors is a lot of weight, plus two 26A controllers and a heavy high current battery (52A plus capable). More available torque with DD, but traction may be insufficient to take advantage of it. Current to reach this torque will be much higher with DD. Think of DD as a heavy, high power system that will have high speed capacity vs geared as a torquey light low current system that will be more suitable for low speed but run out of steam or overheat at higher speeds. How fast do you want to go with trailer?

Dual wheel electric braking on the trailer would be awesome, but you need to adjust it to trailer weight.

Shorting the motor phase wires will produce excessive braking, and likely blow the controllers. I would go for controllers that had easily adjustable regen, or better yet - variable braking. A pair of PhaseRunners (or equivalent) would be ideal.

The other possibility is to install two rear brake levers, one for the bike and one for the trailer. Use the trailer one if the trailer is onboard, if not use the bike's. Make the trailer one drive dual brakes (they have these for either cable or hydraulic systems for trikes) and make the lever and hoses/cables easily removable to stay with the trailer.

You could set up the bike braking system (front and rear) to actuate off the front wheel lever. This is done on some motorcycles.
Click to expand...
 
robocam said:
The non-disc brake Xiongda is 100/135mm. I wish Luna also sold these standard sizes. It seems that so many bikes are aluminum (shouldn't spread aluminum right?), and I'm sure many don't use disc brakes. Also, the price is a little high. If I were buying for my bike, I'd much rather get a mid drive for that kind of money. Anyway, the dropouts on my (aluminum) trailer are 100mm wide, but I've been thinking about making a steel adapter to use a different width. But I did notice that If I reverse the dropout brackets, the width is 148mm, so I toyed with the idea of mounting a rear wheel in there.

I'm not too concerned about the weight of the DDs because the load I'm carrying is much heavier. I'm more concerned about the drag of a DD. I was thinking about using 2 mighty mini 52V batteries (or making something like that myself with 25r or 30q cells). I will only activate the motors when I'm going up a hill that my Cyclone 3000-equipped bike cannot handle (due to loss of traction), so a large capacity battery isn't necessary. I only need it to go up to around 10 mph.

To protect the controllers, I could disconnect the phase wires (maybe with a relay?) from the controller when they're shorted. To adjust the braking, I could add power resistors. Is there a link you could show me of the controllers that have adjustable regen braking?

I've included a photo of what I'm trying to accomplish. The setup will grow to 6+ trailers. The trailers in the photo don't include the one with the 100mm dropouts. The red trailers have steel frames, so I'm thinking about welding some extra material to one of them so that they can accommodate a regular front wheel so that I can motorize another one if I need to.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86944

Thanks so much for the information and ideas!

file.php
Click to expand...
Wow, you're the customer I dream of!
Please emigrate to France <3
 
Nelson37 said:
The phaserunner is an excellent controller, and it has many capabilities, but enabling regen braking on a geared hubmotor is not one of them. SFAIK you would have to lock the clutch, which at a minimum would disable the shifting feature of the 2-speed Xiongda. Might keep the gears from breaking, though, and would be an interesting data point if this was done and it lasted more than a couple thousand miles.
Click to expand...

He's talking about DD hubmotors, not Xiongda's, and this point has already been mentioned. He was considering both alternatives, but clearly the reference to regen does not apply to the retro-reverse 2 speed motors.

In any case, I would suggest that the DD discussion be moved to another thread, it is really not on topic here in the Xiongda thread, and is clearly confusing the readers.
 
Thank you for the suggestion. Actually, I already have to lean forward to keep the front end down, so most of the weight is already over the rear tire. Plus, I'm not aware of any hub motors for a 15mm thru axle fork. Here's one being tested though. http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/all-axle-hub-motor.html

Since almost all the weight is over the driven wheel, my problem is that I'm not heavy enough. The only way to pull more weight is to motorize one or more of the trailers (or make my bike heavier, which I don't want to do haha).

cycleops612 said:
OR:

If traction is the worry, maybe simply a second hub motor on front of bike?

Leaning forward during the climb should shift more weight frontwards to improve front grip.

Similarly, some battery e.g. weight moved forward to front racks would nelp.
Click to expand...
 
Sun gear stripped and cracked at 2874 miles.
2773e538c0316db04cc9300d22d6f76c.jpg
looks like the teeth had deformed and picked up the rubber oil seal and metal that is in that.And caused it to strip and crack.
f112377e53522c845f759543da7cdee9.jpg
d34b6e9c248c26d9558fad510c6c92f0.jpg
Xiongda are sending another gear.The motor is over 2 years old now.Exelent service from Xiongda.I think I will put a slight chamfer on the new gear to prevent this happening again.
 
Nelson37 said:
Did they send the gears for free, or was there a charge for this?

Also, if at all possible, could you closely examine the new gearset with an eye towards determining if the plastic is of a different type? Seems none of the vendors involved is interested in doing this.

You are either number 12, or 13. Somebody mentioned a breakage in another thread and I have not yet checked if this was already mentioned in this one.

Just for a point of comparison, my own xf07 is now passing 8,000 miles. Similar size and rating, but no internal shifting.
Click to expand...
Yea there sending the sun gear for free.My motor broke before both high and low gears.I was sent both sets for free last time. Bonnie at Xiongda says the material has been changed now.I will let you know. Mine is the none auto change.
 
Yes they sell direct contact Bonnie Xiong at Bonnie@xiongdamotor.com.cn I think mine was about £186 two years ago.I got hub,controller,KT LCD 3 display, pas and some spokes.£70 of the £186 was delivery and tax by D.H.L. I paid with PayPal. They have been fantastic with me.
 
Nelson37 said:
Interesting that multiple vendors have declined to verify the gear composition change.
Click to expand...
I'm still too busy starting up the business to get into that. Once everything is on rails and my workshop is all set up, I will certainly investigate. And, as I have promised before, I will certainly share my findings here.
 
In fact it is almost 3 months ago and with all due respect, I find setting up my business to be able to feed my family more important than opening up the motor to serve your curiosity (and my own by the way)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58490&p=1253068

The info on how to order the motor directly from the manufacturer is all over this topic. I encourage you to buy one and play with it. Say hi to Bonnie from me, she's very kind and helpful.
 
robocam said:
Interesting. At what voltage & current? Luna claims 50 Nm (I assume at 52V/20A) but they also claim that the windings were custom designed to handle a 52V battery.

If the 2-speed hub tops out at around 15 mph, that's like 1st gear in a GNG mid drive setup, which has quite a bit of hill climbing ability.

I was actually thinking of putting 2 of those on my trailer (one on each side). I wonder if I would run out of traction with a 100 lb load. Maybe I should use 2 Amazon DDs at 26A each instead? I don't know what to do. I was thinking about using a couple 40A Cyclone controllers to increase the torque if 26A wasn't enough (51A combined). Total load to be towed is 600 lbs+.

knutselmaaster said:
XiongDa claims 70Nm of torque in low gear.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Logically, it seems possible you are overcomplicating.

From memory, u trailers had pretty small wheels - 20"?

So already u have low gearing from a standard hub motor, & u have 2 of them to double torque.

so why not simply sniff around for a pair of; (low) geared (freewheel), much lighter & cheaper, robust (metal gears?), hi volt, torquey windings HUBS for u trailer wheels?

maybe even smaller wheels is doable for more torque.

I cant help thinking cruise control could be a useful option to play with for power delivery to trailer motors.
 
Nelson37 said:
The date initially given for the change was September of last year.

If you really intend to feed your family selling these things I would put hands-on positive verification of the possibility of solving a serious defect in your chosen product to re-sell a high priority, and make that information public ASAP.

Xiongda's customer service does appear to be high-grade. No issues obtaining warranty replacement gears, efforts to resolve the issue, and free gear sent on a motor long out of warranty. This last, to me, is very important as indicating an implicit acknowledgement of the defective gear issue.

Surprising seeing how long they have been aware of it that they would not have informed their ol' drinkin' buddy from America.
Click to expand...
Having to change a part subject to wear isn't really what I call a serious defect.
For example, most bikes with central motors need new chains and gears quite regularly, and that costs a whole lot more to change. That is a disadvantage of the design, but certainly not a serious defect.
I will only sell street legal stuff, and here that is 250W (peaks to ~350w) here which reduces wear and risk of breakage a lot.
The manufacturer is still constantly improving the product and gives great after sales, very important for a reseller and quite rare. (try to get a replacement BMS from Bosch, like I did lately, to see the opposite: "no you can only get a whole battery", even if you're official service center)
This motor will only be a very small part of my company's sales by the way, I would never put all my money on one single horse.
 
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