2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[knutselmaaster]

I was under the impression u could opt for different gearing on geared hubs, then i was told u cant, now i hear you can.

cool u r using a 28" roadbike. i have long thought for a light rider, a drop bar roadbike ebike would be a blast - awesome power to weight (~12kg bike & 5kg XD motor or 2kg geared hub) & low road & wind friction.

When I order I do it for an exact wheel size.
I don't think that the gearing changes, I believe that it are the motor windings.
I haven't got more detailed information on this yet.
I have several 2-speed motors in stock that I ordered for 20", 24" and 26" wheels so I will certainly have more detailed information in the future.
The XD motor is less than 4kg, I think even less than 3,5kg. I still need to weigh them to get an exact answer.

Now we are getting somewhere.

All kits now sent with sinewave controllers!

Possible new gearset material! I have a link to Mr. Teakle's blog. Will read.

Real reasons to believe that the problems may have been solved! This motor does have real possibilities.

Knutsel, during the low speed parts of your power usage test, did you use autoshift or was the motor in low gear during these portions? There may be a real power savings as a hidden benefit.

Due to additional information I have obtained, from this point forward all comments and discussion from me about this subject will in no way reference the other vendor or his product. There is some overlap, but that other individual and his company are a separate issue that must be dealt with in other ways. Those who keep singing his praises should be ashamed of themselves.

Now what we need are some user reports, preferably long-term, about the motor with new gears and controller. This thing just might really be the game-changer it was hoped to be, almost three years ago.

Please share the link to Mr. Teakle's blog.

I have tested the city bike with both the KT as the LS controllers, the KT has automatic shifting and the LS hasn't (at least not the one I have, I believe there are LS controllers with automatic shifting too).
This gave me a very good insight in the difference between the controllers.

And it sure is a benefit for the efficiency and thus the power consumption, as the motor runs more often at higher speeds (inside) and we all know that electric motors are less efficient at low rotation speed.

Thank you that you have came back to the essence of this topic, sharing information and experiences.

I am very busy at the moment but in the coming months I will open and compare old and new versions, heavily used ones, weigh and measure etc.
I will share the info here.

 

[Alan B]

http://bruceteakle.blogspot.com/p/it-seems-clear-xiongda-2-speed-motor-is.html

 

[knutselmaaster]

Thanks.
Very informative post indeed.
In case of a gear failure I would recommend to change surrounding (nylon) gears also.
It doesn't cost much and it assures that the gears wear in together.
Like when you change the sprockets on a bike, best is also to change the chain.

 

[Ozzzz]

The bare mtr weighs 3.45kg.

I intend to complete another 4000k tour this coming winter and will report the performance or offer to anyone who asks...For what it's worth...
I can understand the need for commercial expedience but don't have a lot of time for some of the one-up-manship or unhelpful members of or posts on, a public / community forum. I like to know everything possible, even if my use of it is limited, still make some dodgy decisions but studied this topic here hoping some of the op's or those with ongoing experience would come back. Ironically just before it took off again and before buying with eyes open.

Thanks for the recent input on the '250w' motor.

 

[LewTwo]

The XD motor is less than 4kg, I think even less than 3,5kg. I still need to weigh them to get an exact answer. ...

One of the early posts listed it at 3.283 Kg. Don't ask me which one as I just went through all 54 screens/pages (making notes) ... this thread could benefit from an index. I suspect that there is also some variance depending on the form factor (front vs rear, disk vs rim brake, axle width, etc).

 

[knutselmaaster]

Yes, the front and back wheel motors are quite different in size, and if it is true that different windings exist that can make a difference in weight too.
Roughly 3,5 kg is very light for a hub motor with such climbing ability, that is for sure.

 

[Ozzzz]

Mine's a 145mm freewheel disc rear (3.45kg), It's a tiny little lump, maybe the less diameter of weight makes for more efficiency :wink:

 

[addicted2climbing]

Hello All,

I posted a while back regarding hub motor advice and was about to buy a Q128 setup then found this thread after seeing the Luna version they have on sale. I reached out to Luna to get more info and Motor dimensions. They replied but were unable to get me any dimensions or drawings for this motor. I skimmed many pages of this thread and did not see one. However, what i did get from my skimming was that the rear disc version is 145mm and that the disc was an afterthought so they just added the mounting provisions. Is this true? My bike is aluminum and spreading my chainstays 5mm each side seems a bit much. Also if they did just add the disc mounting then I worry that they likely did not consider any caliper clearance or adhere to a standard offset. And one last its probably not going to work for me is my bike is a 1x11 speed but at SRAM road spacing which I was informed today is a bit more compact than a standard mountianbike 10 speed. My guess is this motor would not have room for m drivetrain. Without drawings is hard to say so if anyone has any experience in getting this motor in a rear 135mm dropout bike with a rear disk and possible 11 speed it would be great to hear from you...

I still think the Q128 is my best bet, but would welcome the 2 spd option if I can make it fit...

I am open to any and all suggestions.

 

[knutselmaaster]

Is the sram 11 available as a freewheel?
The cassette version of the motor is 155mm wide.
On my mtb I had no problems with disc brake position, but I had to transform it to 7 speed. (shimano,freewheel)

 

[addicted2climbing]

Wow thanks for the reply. Without a drawing I did not even realize it was not a cassette version. 155mm wide just wont work for me...

Thanks for the update.

 

[knutselmaaster]

I imagine that the same problem will rise for the q128, it will be wider than 128mm for a cassette version and some spacers might be needed on the axle to position the disc.

 

[addicted2climbing]

I imagine that the same problem will rise for the q128, it will be wider than 128mm for a cassette version and some spacers might be needed on the axle to position the disc.

I figured I may need a spacer or two. With the Q128 its likely a lesser issue to just make fit.

I see you live near Paris... My wife is from Paris and her family now lives near Toulouse in the GERS. We plan to visit in June and I cant wait...

Marc

 

[knutselmaaster]

Don't hesitate to drop by in my shop

 

[addicted2climbing]

Don't hesitate to drop by in my shop

Thanks for the invite. Sadly no Paris this year. We visited Paris 2 years ago. This time its a family visit with a bit of site seeing in the pyranees and maybe Coullioure and Cadaques Spain.

Sorry everyone for the off topic posts....

 

[bigoilbob]

Wow thanks for the reply. Without a drawing I did not even realize it was not a cassette version. 155mm wide just wont work for me...

Thanks for the update.

No one has told me that my ~100mm, 48 volt version is wound any differently or is any less powerful than the others. In fact, I have seen no real info on this thread about different windings*. But what DOES seem to work are questions to Bonnie, at X. In general, I recommend asking her first, and trying to traverse this long thread as a last resort.

* Not sayin' there's nothing on it here, but 54 pages with no index is too much for my interest....

 

[knutselmaaster]

Well, the speed difference between the motors for different wheel sizes must come from somewhere. And the same thing for the difference in 36v and 48v. Normally the windings are responsible for that. The people that had gear problems never mentioned any different tooth count options for the replacement.
And indeed the best source of information is Bonnie.

 

[Alan B]

I have read this thread a couple of times.

I have not seen more than one set of gear ratios.

We have seen different voltage / speed ratings which implies winding differences, which is easy for them to do. These are integer relationships so it is not a continuously variable parameter. Thus changing windings and wheel sizes will not produce exactly the same speed in every case, but they can pick a close ratio.

The "power" and "torque" capability of the motor is not changed by different windings. The torque per watt of heating comes from the mechanical properties like radius, width, gap, permanent magnet strength, and this heating together with the heat dissipation capacity of the motor determine the max continuous and short term torque capability of the motor.

The power that is applied to the motor does vary depending on the voltage and current (and the back EMF from the RPM), but the motor's torque per unit heat is fixed.

The easy thing for them to do is to change the windings, which merely changes the RPM per volt and the torque per amp, and compensates for voltage and wheel size. d8veh said this several times by stating the 36V 20A setup was comparable to the 48V 15A.

 

[bigoilbob]

Well, the speed difference between the motors for different wheel sizes must come from somewhere. And the same thing for the difference in 36v and 48v. Normally the windings are responsible for that. The people that had gear problems never mentioned any different tooth count options for the replacement.
And indeed the best source of information is Bonnie.

The speed differences do indeed come from different wheel sizes. I have seen power/torque/amp v radial velocity charts for Xiongda motors with different voltages, and they all clock out at ~270 r/m. Correct me if I was reading those charts incorrectly. And yes, a motor using 48 volts at the same amperage as that used by one with a 36 volt difference would indeed be wired differently. But I was referring to wiring differences between motors with different widths, but with the same nominal voltage. Since my 48 volt motor (the highest offered by Xiongda) is also the narrowest of them, what is the wiring/power difference between my 48v, ~100mm wide motor, and a 48 volt motor nearly half again as wide? That's what I would be asking Bonnie about, if fork width is an issue (and it usually is).......

 

[LewTwo]

No one has told me that my ~100mm, 48 volt version is wound any differently or is any less powerful than the others. In fact, I have seen no real info on this thread about different windings*. But what DOES seem to work are questions to Bonnie, at X. In general, I recommend asking her first, and trying to traverse this long thread as a last resort.

* Not sayin' there's nothing on it here, but 54 pages with no index is too much for my interest....

I did go through all 54 pages making notes (made eyes tired). One of the things that I was looking for was information on different windings. It ain't there but different windings are implied via the wheel sizes, voltages and speeds. Several message indicate that to get higher speed one should order a motor with specified smaller wheel size.

It appears that the core motor is the same width in all the various configurations. Differences in width come from the side plates, axles and whatever pieces parts are added to fit the configuration.

Edit:
I am going to toss this out because I have not seen it mentioned. I wonder how this motor would be with a Phase Runner controller? There is a provision for reverse in the Phase Runner.

 

[bigoilbob]

"Several message indicate that to get higher speed one should order a motor with specified smaller wheel size."

I think you got it versa visa. Please point us to these posts. If a motor winds out at ONE given r/m, ~260-270 in the case of ALL X motors, I believe, then the ONLY way to INCREASE top speed (and thereby DECREASE hill climbing power) for a given motor, is to lace to a bigger wheel.

Anyone who can demo one of those X tables showing that different motors of theirs (whether wider or thinner or higher or lower voltages) have differing max radial velocities, please post. Actually, I'm surprised that all of them I've seen DO have the same max radial velocity, and I might very well be making an observational mistake. Feel free to smarten me up some......

 

[LewTwo]

"Several message indicate that to get higher speed one should order a motor with specified smaller wheel size."

I think you got it versa visa. Please point us to these posts. If a motor winds out at ONE given r/m, ~260-270 in the case of ALL X motors, I believe, then the ONLY way to INCREASE top speed (and thereby DECREASE hill climbing power) for a given motor, is to lace to a bigger wheel..

We seem to have a misunderstanding and I am not going back to chase down the messages again. Perhaps an example would be appropriate.
"... to get higher speed one should order a motor with specified smaller wheel size."
If one wants a higher speed motor for a bicycle with 700C wheels then one should order a motor for a 24 or 26 wheel size.

 

[Alan B]

For a particular motor, larger wheel size makes more speed and demands more current. If it is drawing the max allowed current already, raising wheel size will lower speed, the motor is stalling.

The small wheel motor will attempt to turn the larger wheel at the higher RPM required for the smaller wheel (until it runs out of current/power).

For a particular wheel, putting a motor designed for a smaller wheel in it produces more speed, if it is not at the current limit. The motor for the smaller wheel will attempt to spin the wheel faster.

Changing wheel size is equivalent to shifting gears in a mid-drive.

 

[Alan B]

The Phase Runner is an excellent controller. It should work nicely as long as it reverses direction smoothly on the fly. I haven't tried that with a PR yet. The brown wire is for reversing.

One caution is the parameters need to be set correctly. This small motor could heat up rather quickly.

 

[knutselmaaster]

"Several message indicate that to get higher speed one should order a motor with specified smaller wheel size."

I think you got it versa visa. Please point us to these posts. If a motor winds out at ONE given r/m, ~260-270 in the case of ALL X motors, I believe, then the ONLY way to INCREASE top speed (and thereby DECREASE hill climbing power) for a given motor, is to lace to a bigger wheel.

Anyone who can demo one of those X tables showing that different motors of theirs (whether wider or thinner or higher or lower voltages) have differing max radial velocities, please post. Actually, I'm surprised that all of them I've seen DO have the same max radial velocity, and I might very well be making an observational mistake. Feel free to smarten me up some......

I have a motor that I ordered for a 20" wheel that has been gathering dust since I bought it about 2 years ago, as I have never laced a wheel with it. Normally the RPM should be higher than 270 because it would run too slow otherwise.
I am getting really curious to know the RPM now, I will try to find some time to test it asap.

 

[LewTwo]

For a particular motor, larger wheel size makes more speed and demands more current. If it is drawing the max allowed current already, raising wheel size will lower speed, the motor is stalling.

The small wheel motor will attempt to turn the larger wheel at the higher RPM required for the smaller wheel (until it runs out of current/power).

For a particular wheel, putting a motor designed for a smaller wheel in it produces more speed, if it is not at the current limit. The motor for the smaller wheel will attempt to spin the wheel faster.

Changing wheel size is equivalent to shifting gears in a mid-drive.

All true. However the power require is driven by one's environment (hilly vs level, smooth surface vs rough, rider weight, etc.). In some cases the system may be power limited and in others it may be RPM limited.

That is the great advantage of a mid drive system. One can always change the final drive ratio if they are a bit off the performance curve. Changing the wheel size is a bit more difficult.