During normal running, it's as quiet as any geared hub-motor, but if you go too slow in high gear, the commutation pulses induce a juddering noise. The same in low gear. If you try and go up a very steep hill without pedalling, the motor slows right down and then can make a rasping noise like something is resonating with the commutation pulses. Extra grease helps a lot. I think it needs a sine-wave controller. Xiongda said that one was coming soon a couple of months ago.
2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor
- Thread starter d8veh
- Start date
endlessly_ending
10 W
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2013
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- 82
d8veh:
Last few days I was in contact with Bonnie from XiongDa regarding sine wave controllers.
She actually offered me three !!! different versions.
- A KT sine wave controller that is made for the 2-speed motor but isnt any programmable
- A Lishui sine-wave controller that is programmable via a King meter display KM5 and is made for the 2-speed motor
- A Lishui sine-wave FOC (Field Oriented Control) controller that is programmable via a King meter display KM5 but is a sensorless design and hence not really inteded for use with the 2-speed motor (no gear change, pedaling before operation...)
All are 15A versions
The last one did sound interesting to me and I'll give it a try on a different motor
The firast one I'll igve a try on the XiongDa
Well, lets see.
Last few days I was in contact with Bonnie from XiongDa regarding sine wave controllers.
She actually offered me three !!! different versions.
- A KT sine wave controller that is made for the 2-speed motor but isnt any programmable
- A Lishui sine-wave controller that is programmable via a King meter display KM5 and is made for the 2-speed motor
- A Lishui sine-wave FOC (Field Oriented Control) controller that is programmable via a King meter display KM5 but is a sensorless design and hence not really inteded for use with the 2-speed motor (no gear change, pedaling before operation...)
All are 15A versions
The last one did sound interesting to me and I'll give it a try on a different motor
The firast one I'll igve a try on the XiongDa
Well, lets see.
panurge
10 kW
the lishui (non FOC) is the one I got...I will test it once mounted and report the impressions...
It is marked as LSW928 2F, production date: 5/2014!!!
Have not found it on the LISHUI website, though....I guess it is a trike type controller specifically revised for the XiongDa 2 speed.
It is marked as LSW928 2F, production date: 5/2014!!!
Have not found it on the LISHUI website, though....I guess it is a trike type controller specifically revised for the XiongDa 2 speed.
octotod
1 µW
I've been researching electrification options for an Xtracycle build I'm contemplating. This will be my first electric bike. I stumbled upon this thread and feel the two speed could be perfect for my purposes: helping out when carrying medium loads (<100 lbs) modest distances (<10 miles) up maybe not-so-modest hills (I'm in SF, but know how to avoid the steepest parts!). The dropout spacing on the Xtracycle attachment is 135mm which from reading this thread seems too small for the motor to fit. Also, I'd like to use a 24" wheel for strength and this would need to use a disc brake, which would presumably require more space between dropouts. I imagine the Xtracycle frame, being steel, could be widened 15mm or so.
Before I think too much about this, I'd like to see if anyone here can tell me this plan is totally crazy. Also, does anyone know if this two-speed motor freewheels as easily as a regular geared hub motor?
Before I think too much about this, I'd like to see if anyone here can tell me this plan is totally crazy. Also, does anyone know if this two-speed motor freewheels as easily as a regular geared hub motor?
The Xiongda freewheels quite easily. The V-brake model fits the common 135mm wide drop-outs. If you get a direct drive hub, that will have the option of regen-braking, which helps greatly going steep downhills, plus it keeps the V-brakes cool so they are ready to be very effective if needed...
DD hubs can be near silent with a sine wave controller, but of course, they also have cogging, which some riders find annoying, and others don't mind...
DD hubs can be near silent with a sine wave controller, but of course, they also have cogging, which some riders find annoying, and others don't mind...
octotod
1 µW
Thanks for the response! I'd really like this bike to usable with no battery, so I'm glad to hear that the freewheeling is fine. I wrote to Bonnie at XD asking about the width with a disc. Maybe I can find a V-brake solution which will mate the Xtracycle brake bosses to the 24" wheel. Or just use a beefy 26" wheel, though would like the disc brake.
motomech
10 MW
I think you would be better off just going with a proven larger geared motor like the Mac or Bafang BPM.octotod said:
The Xiongda after all still a mini-motor. The things that make the 2-speed attractive, small and stealthy, light, etc. are not that big a deal with an Extracycle.
I agree with motomech. Maybe take a look at this article link below to get some ideas...my unscientific polling indicates that 48V X 25A = 1,200W has the most happy customers. Of course hot rodders want more (MUCH more), but....more power cost more money.
http://www.electricbike.com/12-kit-power-levels-360w-to-8000w/
http://www.electricbike.com/12-kit-power-levels-360w-to-8000w/
octotod
1 µW
Good points, thanks guys. The MAC 10t or 12t is probably the best choice. I'll report back if I hear from Bonnie about the width / price in case that info is useful for someone.
endlessly_ending
10 W
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2013
- Messages
- 82
panurge said:
What are your findings with this controller? Already any experience?
Was it sold as a sine wave controller?
panurge
10 kW
.justin_le said:
What about a kind of clutch that's always freewheeling (for the direct drive direction) but with a lever that let it engage for regen?. I'm not really talking about the engineering side (magnetic?, pad? disc? some new invention?) only figuring out the actuation concept.
A final product that might offers this feature for regen with the simplicity of the freewheeling setup, in a 2 speed gearless/geared retro-direct Hubmotor (or better, simply, motor) should be the winner!!!
Also, I'm tempted to project a midmounted hubmotor drive around the XD...2motor speeds plus the rear cluster, seems attractive, but the Motor must be really enlightened...say, at no more than 3Kg...
Hope that making the personal prototype you are talking about, Justin, will contribute to find ideas to let it fianlly regen.
Cheers
endlessly_ending
10 W
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2013
- Messages
- 82
endlessly_ending said:d8veh:
Last few days I was in contact with Bonnie from XiongDa regarding sine wave controllers.
She actually offered me three !!! different versions.
- A KT sine wave controller that is made for the 2-speed motor but isnt any programmable
- A Lishui sine-wave controller that is programmable via a King meter display KM5 and is made for the 2-speed motor
- A Lishui sine-wave FOC (Field Oriented Control) controller that is programmable via a King meter display KM5 but is a sensorless design and hence not really inteded for use with the 2-speed motor (no gear change, pedaling before operation...)
All are 15A versions
The last one did sound interesting to me and I'll give it a try on a different motor
The firast one I'll igve a try on the XiongDa
Well, lets see.
Sometimes it even comes better.
Bonnie from XiongDa checked back with Lishui and they are going to make a FOC sine wave controller for me, which will be a "drop in replacemet" for the 2-speed hub standard controller (36V / 15A). That is to say, that all the wires and plugs will be the same and of course it will have automatic and manual gear change. WOW !
I hardly can await to get my hands on it.
panurge
10 kW
Well, I know that you're working on a motor+2 speed gearbox combo...But If among "all of the features" I've guessed in your design there's also the regen clutch engage lever, that will be awesome, Miles...Miles said:You seem to have guessed all of the features in my design, Jules..... Maybe I'll start a thread on itpanurge said:
Waiting keen for that thread!!!
Pete1961
10 W
I am seriously interested in this motor BUT the confusion about controllers worries me just now. Originally d8veh was sent a non sine wave one that chattered at low speeds in the low gear, (they then sent him a sine wave model that seemed to sort things out). Now there are three sine wave models on offer (I think we can discount the last one as unsuitable?) but which to choose of the first two. I would tend to go for the simplest but what am I potentially losing by having a non programmable model - in other words what does the programming do?
The three controllers that are certified by Xionda to work with their 2-speed motor are surprisingly affordable. I highly recommend getting a back-up controller and two throttles. Identify the controller version that you are certain you will NOT want, and buy one each of the other two...
I'm strongly considering running one of these motors a 15-cell voltage (55.5v) 10Ah Li-Poly Pack consisting of 6@ 5,000mAh 5-cell HobbyKing packs three in series, two wide in parallel. A lot of power at low cost that will easily fit in a Lipo-Safe bag in a backpack or small frame bag.
I wonder which if any of the 48v controllers they offer can handle that much extra juice. That's two cells hotter then the normal 13-cell pack for a 48v system. I know you can almost always get away with one extra cell hotter 14-cell pack and most 48v controllers have 63-volt rated caps and fifteen times the 4.2v peak hot off the charger Li-Poly cell voltage comes out to exactly that but still its a little hotter then the controllers were probably designed for.
Anyone have a good idea of which if any of their controllers could handle that kind of a 15-cell pack voltage that is two full cells hotter then a normal 48v system? It's just that three 5-cell packs in series makes for a nice balanced all packs the same set-up and would help me crank up the RPMs on the motor to match the fact that I'm a pretty strong pedaler and under pedal power alone I usually average 15-mph for up to a couple hours and normally easily break out slightly above 20-mph and sustain for a mile or more on the flat without head or tail wind with a mountain bike with smooth highway tread tires but still a non-aerodynamic bike with fairly fat tires.
Since I want this to be a light weight fast pedal hard and run the motor build I think I can use all the voltage and thus motor RPMs I can get in order to get the motors top end to work with me on my human power top end so I don't end up over-running the motor under pedal power on the flat and I can use the motors high gear to boost my top end as well as us the low gear to help with the hills.
I wonder which if any of the 48v controllers they offer can handle that much extra juice. That's two cells hotter then the normal 13-cell pack for a 48v system. I know you can almost always get away with one extra cell hotter 14-cell pack and most 48v controllers have 63-volt rated caps and fifteen times the 4.2v peak hot off the charger Li-Poly cell voltage comes out to exactly that but still its a little hotter then the controllers were probably designed for.
Anyone have a good idea of which if any of their controllers could handle that kind of a 15-cell pack voltage that is two full cells hotter then a normal 48v system? It's just that three 5-cell packs in series makes for a nice balanced all packs the same set-up and would help me crank up the RPMs on the motor to match the fact that I'm a pretty strong pedaler and under pedal power alone I usually average 15-mph for up to a couple hours and normally easily break out slightly above 20-mph and sustain for a mile or more on the flat without head or tail wind with a mountain bike with smooth highway tread tires but still a non-aerodynamic bike with fairly fat tires.
Since I want this to be a light weight fast pedal hard and run the motor build I think I can use all the voltage and thus motor RPMs I can get in order to get the motors top end to work with me on my human power top end so I don't end up over-running the motor under pedal power on the flat and I can use the motors high gear to boost my top end as well as us the low gear to help with the hills.
danielrlee
10 kW
Dave, have you tried running it at four-figure wattage levels yet or is that a little optimistic?
I've run with 20 amps at 36v (800 battery watts) and 15 amps at 12S (750 battery watts). I wouldn't want to go much higher because the high-speed clutch is on a relatively small diameter, so has to transmit a very high torque.danielrlee said:
The gear-changing software works best at 36v 15A. When you solder the shunt, it shifts gear-changing to a higher speed, so you have to change manually most of the time.
When you increase the voltage to 12S, it also messes up the gear-changing. Plus, you lose some of the low-speed efficiency that makes it climb so well.
@ d8veh:
I´m thinking about ordering the xiongda-motor (frontmotor, V-brake) for my 28" crossbike.
I´m about 170lbs, and would like to have good assitance at steep hills of about 15%.
I just ordered 130 Sony US18650v3 Konion-cells (3,6V, 2.250mAh, 10A max/cell), for two battery packs á 12s5p and to have some extra cells.
The packs should be connectable by Y-cable and ideal diodes..
12s was ment, to deal with lowering voltage when the battery gets empty.
For some higher torque, I thought about soldering the shunt to provide 18A.
Xiongda offers the approved KT-sine-wave controller and a Liushi-sine-wave controller, which they don´t recommend yet (some more tests to do..).
They aren´t expensive, so I would like to try both.
Which configuration for the battery pack would you recommend?
I wouldn´t care about losing the auto-gearchange funktion..
Do you still think, the motor runs nicer at 44V?
Thanks a lot!!
I´m thinking about ordering the xiongda-motor (frontmotor, V-brake) for my 28" crossbike.
I´m about 170lbs, and would like to have good assitance at steep hills of about 15%.
I just ordered 130 Sony US18650v3 Konion-cells (3,6V, 2.250mAh, 10A max/cell), for two battery packs á 12s5p and to have some extra cells.
The packs should be connectable by Y-cable and ideal diodes..
12s was ment, to deal with lowering voltage when the battery gets empty.
For some higher torque, I thought about soldering the shunt to provide 18A.
Xiongda offers the approved KT-sine-wave controller and a Liushi-sine-wave controller, which they don´t recommend yet (some more tests to do..).
They aren´t expensive, so I would like to try both.
Which configuration for the battery pack would you recommend?
I wouldn´t care about losing the auto-gearchange funktion..
Do you still think, the motor runs nicer at 44V?
Thanks a lot!!
I would think that the 48v specific controller for this motor would be programmed with a proper shift point for that voltage level?
Thus going with a 48v pack with 48v controller would provide increased performance with the proper auto shift point compared to a 36v controller running on a 44v pack?
That's just an assumption on my part (thus the question marks rather then periods), but an assumption though I intend to follow through on myself, although I'm probably going to run mine on a pack that is just slightly hotter then 48v. Battery options I'm considering are 14s Li-Poly (51.8v) and 16s LiFePO4 (51.2v) both only a single cell hotter then standard 48v packs and a smaller percentage voltage discrepence then design specs then 36-vs-44. I was considering the possibility of a 15s Li-Poly (55.5v) but have since decided against that due to charging issues, added stress on the controller, and now throwing the auto-shift function too far off as well.
I'm probably also going to go with double motors in both front and rear wheels, according to my calculations only makes a very small difference for top speed on the flat (about 1-to-2-mph faster and 3-5 miles shorter range) but should make a huge difference when hill climbing drastically improving hill climbing capability and actually increasing the range when hill climbing due to less stress on each individual motor and higher over-all efficiency from them which translates to greater range while hill climbing on the same size battery as a result.
Thus going with a 48v pack with 48v controller would provide increased performance with the proper auto shift point compared to a 36v controller running on a 44v pack?
That's just an assumption on my part (thus the question marks rather then periods), but an assumption though I intend to follow through on myself, although I'm probably going to run mine on a pack that is just slightly hotter then 48v. Battery options I'm considering are 14s Li-Poly (51.8v) and 16s LiFePO4 (51.2v) both only a single cell hotter then standard 48v packs and a smaller percentage voltage discrepence then design specs then 36-vs-44. I was considering the possibility of a 15s Li-Poly (55.5v) but have since decided against that due to charging issues, added stress on the controller, and now throwing the auto-shift function too far off as well.
I'm probably also going to go with double motors in both front and rear wheels, according to my calculations only makes a very small difference for top speed on the flat (about 1-to-2-mph faster and 3-5 miles shorter range) but should make a huge difference when hill climbing drastically improving hill climbing capability and actually increasing the range when hill climbing due to less stress on each individual motor and higher over-all efficiency from them which translates to greater range while hill climbing on the same size battery as a result.
I haven't tried the complete 48v system, so I can't say how well it works, but I guess that they adjusted the software to give an ideal shift point.
@Sunday1
They're difficult questions to answer. The main advantage of the Xiongda is that you can get good, though slow, climbing from a "250W" motor, that's fairly light. It's size and the small top gear clutch is never going to allow it to be a power-house. I reckon that 750 - 900W will be about the maximum it can safely take from the battery. I'm 100kg, so climbing torque is important. If your only 77kg, then you need proportionally less torque than me, so you can trade it for speed. 12S should be about right then. Try it with the standard 15 amps first, and then if you need a bit more power and torque, you can go up to 18 amps. That should be OK with your lighter weight.
@Sunday1
They're difficult questions to answer. The main advantage of the Xiongda is that you can get good, though slow, climbing from a "250W" motor, that's fairly light. It's size and the small top gear clutch is never going to allow it to be a power-house. I reckon that 750 - 900W will be about the maximum it can safely take from the battery. I'm 100kg, so climbing torque is important. If your only 77kg, then you need proportionally less torque than me, so you can trade it for speed. 12S should be about right then. Try it with the standard 15 amps first, and then if you need a bit more power and torque, you can go up to 18 amps. That should be OK with your lighter weight.
