webfootguy
100 W
I'll have to agree with the rant. If nothing else, we need to fix access to quality cells at a reasonable price.
A123 20AH cells source?
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
curious said:
Perhaps a possible business opportunity for someone, either suppliers are being rational in this policy or they are not. Perhaps it liability issues, perhaps its branding issues, either way there might be a work around somewhere. Without investigate it properly its hard to say.
I had a friend who once worked as a salesman for a company selling boxes. His boss told him to tell people who asked for small numbers of boxes not to call again. Needless to say my friend decided their was no good reason for this policy and setup his own (very successful) box making business
John in CR
100 TW
curious said:
Curious,
I agree with your rant whole-heartedly, and it's just that kind of stuff that feeds into part of my brain wanting to believe in some of the EV related conspiracy theories. Our saving grace is that despite their possible best efforts, our grass roots effort is laying a foundation impossible to destroy. Cheap and powerful batteries are coming. We just have to be patient for some of the new breakthroughs we all read about 2 and 3 years ago to become available. I refuse to accept that they will all fail or sell out to the man.
In the meantime, if conspiracy stuff is even partially true, their chosen approach will play against them, because each day that the electric car is suppressed thousands, if not tens of thousands, discover the advantages of much smaller and lighter EVs, such as ebikes and etrikes, that they will never give up even once electric cars become widely available and affordable.
Re: Mavizen. I wrote to them a few days ago via their contact info about batteries for my EV (car) and they wrote back promptly. They sell a "pack builder's kit" as well as cells, though this was for a 288-cell configuration, more than your average e-bike needs. Total price was too much for me to sneak by my wife. But I'm sure they'll tell you their price if you write to them.
lesdit
100 W
It's obvious to me what needs to happen:
A company needs to provide a couple of different sized 'packs' .
The pack would be of substantial size, say 5KWH as a minimum. Pack is sold enclosed and protected.
No user serviceable parts inside.
A modern BMS is inside. Manages the pack correctly depending on external factors, V,I,temp,Charge rate, etc.
Pack is electricly protected from most stupid user mistakes.
Pack is heavily data logged. ( say 8 gig, compressed/encrypted). Customer returns are 'black box recorder' investigated to see how it failed.
Packs can be combined to tailor from e-scooter to e-car of Tesla caliber.
Totally doable, requires enough investment to get rolling, a minimum of 2 to 3 hundred K.
Two EE's, packaging engineer, a tech/fab guy for prototype work, to start.
Packs would become the defacto standard for traction batteries/UPS batteries.
A123 welcome to provide cells, but Korea or China would be welcome to bid on providing cells.
A123 would be LUCKY to get contract, instead of company begging them to sell us some cells. LG and others
knocking on the door. Chinese bidding with lower quality cells.
-Les
A company needs to provide a couple of different sized 'packs' .
The pack would be of substantial size, say 5KWH as a minimum. Pack is sold enclosed and protected.
No user serviceable parts inside.
A modern BMS is inside. Manages the pack correctly depending on external factors, V,I,temp,Charge rate, etc.
Pack is electricly protected from most stupid user mistakes.
Pack is heavily data logged. ( say 8 gig, compressed/encrypted). Customer returns are 'black box recorder' investigated to see how it failed.
Packs can be combined to tailor from e-scooter to e-car of Tesla caliber.
Totally doable, requires enough investment to get rolling, a minimum of 2 to 3 hundred K.
Two EE's, packaging engineer, a tech/fab guy for prototype work, to start.
Packs would become the defacto standard for traction batteries/UPS batteries.
A123 welcome to provide cells, but Korea or China would be welcome to bid on providing cells.
A123 would be LUCKY to get contract, instead of company begging them to sell us some cells. LG and others
knocking on the door. Chinese bidding with lower quality cells.
-Les
jimw1960
10 kW
jbalgley said:
Can you tell us what the price would have been on a "per cell" basis?
wojtek
100 kW
Also what is the best way to put them together? The contacts are a bitch to solder from my experience!
I know it sounds odd but few small binder clips (with handles removed) per tab pair and some thin single sided tape to prevent cells from sliding in the pack should work. Wires should be terminated with copper foil and squeezed either between tabs or around tabs and then firmly fixed in the pack housing. The arrangement allows super-easy cell replacement if needed. That is what I planned for when/if I get those pouch cells.wojtek said:
lesdit
100 W
I used the contact page on the Mavizen web page, asking about 80 or 160 20ah cells for my Prius Phev project.
No response in 2 days.
No response in 2 days.
jimw1960
10 kW
As mentioned earlier in this thread, Falcon EV sells them for $80 per loose cell, or $100 each assembled into a pack. I don't know if they buy direct from A123, but they claim cells are "Grade A virgin."
I just received my shipment of 100 of these cells from China. I bought extra to get the lower price. I am going to build a few packs and will offer the rest for sale if they test OK. They are new, but there is an issue with the tabs being shorter than the pristine cells.
I just received my shipment of 100 of these cells from China. I bought extra to get the lower price. I am going to build a few packs and will offer the rest for sale if they test OK. They are new, but there is an issue with the tabs being shorter than the pristine cells.
Trouble is - there is no official distributor list on a123 site. Everything else is gray market. Nothing personal against Falcon, but their claim is just a claim. When I buy something from mcmaster or mouser or fisher scientific I know it is legit QC controlled stuff - they are official distributors.jimw1960 said:
jimw1960
10 kW
jbalgley said:
Or, perhaps more like, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."
I got a response (see below). I’d like a turnkey system with BMS and charger. I’ve got 6 Optima D31M batteries and would like the pack replaced with an equivalent in Prismatic A123 Pouch Cells. I’ve started doing some research on SLA vs A123 and I realize there is no straight equivalent compare of SLA to A123 but I just need to get in the ball park to make my order. Any advice on how I should respond to the e-mail below would be greatly appreciated.br549 said:
I would tell them exactly what you told us. Explain your application, what batteries you are using now, what your current performance/range/etc are, and what performance/range/etc you would like to get. They should be able to advise you on where to go from there.
If they're actually A-grade, full QC passed, cells (I would hope so...they say they're an official distributor, though there's no mention of them that I can find on A123's site), that's a pretty good price.
If they're actually A-grade, full QC passed, cells (I would hope so...they say they're an official distributor, though there's no mention of them that I can find on A123's site), that's a pretty good price.
Harold in CR
100 kW
Just in case y'all are not aware, Mavizen is a manufacturer of E Motorcycles, and, the moving force behind the TTXGP E-Motorcycle racing series.
They were recently named as the official Distributor of A123 Batteries. This info is on Elmoto forum.
They are very tied up in Motorcycles and the TTXGP Series in the USA.
They were recently named as the official Distributor of A123 Batteries. This info is on Elmoto forum.
They are very tied up in Motorcycles and the TTXGP Series in the USA.
jimw1960
10 kW
Actually, that price per cell is better than I would have guessed. Right at $1/Wh.
jimw1960
10 kW
Here is a video of a test I did this morning using two 12-ft jumper cables to dead short one of these cells. In the video, I misspoke saying the CBA was drawing 10 amps. It is actually drawing 20 amps. The dead-short with the cables is in parallel to the CBA. Based on a known cell capacity of 20Ah, I was able to calculate that current draw through the cables was 146 amps during the 2.8 minues they were connected. So adding the CBA current, the cell is pushing a average of of 166 amps. Voltage stayed at 2.9 volts at that current. Cell barely got warm. The aluminum clamps at the tabs did get warm, but not hot. Since CBA was reading voltage off the clamps, the cell voltage was probably a few millivots higher.
http://youtu.be/lWk24MbYEBg
[youtube]lWk24MbYEBg[/youtube]
http://youtu.be/lWk24MbYEBg
[youtube]lWk24MbYEBg[/youtube]
peterperkins
100 W
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I'm in the UK and already using 50 of the A123 20 ah cells in my Insight and i also have a few spares.
So I have e-mailed Mavizen for a quote for 180/200 cells for my full ev conversion.
This will be either a
240cell 120kg 4P60S 200V 80ah performance pack or a
250cell 125kg 5P50S 165V 100ah extended range pack
Fingers crossed they supply a reasonable quote.
If the figure mentioned earlier $65 is right that equates to about £40 a cell, call it £50 when vat is added
So I have e-mailed Mavizen for a quote for 180/200 cells for my full ev conversion.
This will be either a
240cell 120kg 4P60S 200V 80ah performance pack or a
250cell 125kg 5P50S 165V 100ah extended range pack
Fingers crossed they supply a reasonable quote.
If the figure mentioned earlier $65 is right that equates to about £40 a cell, call it £50 when vat is added
miro13car
100 kW
br549,
it looks like Mavizen simply sell loose cells when you explain to them what you are going to do with them???
I cannot wait to hear how your shipping/receiving process went!!
They are first official distributor to deal with small guy so it would be HUDGE break trough if they would sell loose cells.
jbalgley,
it is common practice to share e-mail answers from suppliers, what secret do you mean, there is nothing mention on their inquiry form not to share info, like on tens of inquiery forms from other companies.
CMM
it looks like Mavizen simply sell loose cells when you explain to them what you are going to do with them???
I cannot wait to hear how your shipping/receiving process went!!
They are first official distributor to deal with small guy so it would be HUDGE break trough if they would sell loose cells.
jbalgley,
it is common practice to share e-mail answers from suppliers, what secret do you mean, there is nothing mention on their inquiry form not to share info, like on tens of inquiery forms from other companies.
CMM
jonescg
100 MW
Hey jimW-
I woould have thought a dead short would pull much more than that across the terminals :? If they are rated to 30 C you should have been seeing 600 A... Or am I missing something?
I woould have thought a dead short would pull much more than that across the terminals :? If they are rated to 30 C you should have been seeing 600 A... Or am I missing something?
gblast123
1 W
Anybody know how much it would cost to ship 32 cells to the US.. New Jersey to be more specific?
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