Add on T0247 water cooling upgrade board for a 12 FET

[zombiess]

I'm all for trying out new ways to get stuff done. It's just an interesting choice.

I decided to make an 18 FET TO-247 controller about a week ago, and managed to blow it up already. The remains are sitting in a pile, along with the 4 other 15 FET controllers I destroyed by doing dumb things. I still have another 15 FET with 250V FET's that I need to blow up. It's also possible it could actually work at 48S, but unlikely.

I'm armed with some new knowledge, and I'm going to try and make a snazzy 18 FET 150V power stage over the next few days. From everything I've come across people on here doing, it would be the best 150V controller available, and I'm fairly sure I can get it done for about $40-50. I have $20 invested in snubbers, the rest I managed to acquire at no cost.

This is somehow the only picture I managed to take. I have 18 hand picked TO-247's, matched by Rds(on), and a .75 x 1" copper bar to mount them on. I have the PCB mostly designed, I will try to etch it tomorrow. If you sip the datasheet koolaid, it will be good for about 500A phase current. I plan to run no less than 300A phase through it. I'm torn between making a copper slab based waterblock, and just using a big damn heatsink and a thermally switched ducted fan. This thing is probably going to weigh 10 lbs, but it will hopefully be robust.

My choice was because it was off the shelf and quick, something I need since I can't machine nor do I want to at the moment, but am going to be working with etard soon I hope, just need to do a new circuit board layout which I've started.

So what were your setups that was caused you to blow up FETs? Were you extending the leads in a bad way causing ringing on the gate?

Nothing wrong with forced air cooling and a large heat sink. I hope I don't pop my setup, but I'm starting off small and at lower currents and will be scoping the gate signal as I go to see what's happening. I feel pretty confident in my design as long as I haven't made any major PCB error which I'll double check when I get the boards in hand hopefully tomorrow or Thursday.

BTW, never ever sip the Kool Aid, they are Liars and written by Jim Jones... Ok it's not that bad but lots of reading has helped me learn how to intemperate them better. I always assume I'll have the worst RDSon and then add a little. I'm no power control wizard by any means, I just picked FETs based off of specs of ones I knew worked OK IRFB4110's and replaced them with ones that appear to be really close in spec IRFP4568's to drive. The biggest concern I have on my setup is my longish gate traces to the top most FET banks, but I was told I probably won't have a problem due to the lower switching frequencies used in these controllers. I'm still going to scope it to make sure though.

I also try to be very careful with wiring and insulation to prevent shorts. That's just from years of experience jury rigging wiring together only to be bit in the ass because I didn't take the time to do it right. It's why I have something like 30 hours of modification work into my 18FET 4115 controller, the devil is in the details and he takes credit cards if you screw up!

I really can't wait to get my bicycle back with the Hubzilla installed and then get this controller built to test on it. This is just the first testing step of my future compact 24-36FET mega controller if it works (already have the 6 gauge wire in stock, but I think i'm going to be needing about $1500 in Nano tech Lipo for one of my future projects). I dream big, but start small and take baby steps since I'm just learning.

BTW, please be careful when dealing with high voltage like this. I don't know what your background is with electronics or electricity but this goes for everyone including myself. You can't be too safe when dealing with the voltages we are talking about in this thread, one mistake is all it takes with a high voltage lipo pack to do you in. I often wear gloves and safety glasses when making my first connections on new stuff. My one single KFF spooked me and it was very very minor and 100% my fault. Just glad there was no damage, just a flash and a little smoke, but shorting out 30S3P could have been pretty bad if the fuse wouldn't have popped (it vaporized most with no damage to the holder).

 

[zombiess]

Have water cooled aquastarmonster esc (mounted on scooter, powering sk2 80-100), size about 2 matchboxes weight 250g, it does not even get warm (it means heat is dissipated effectively) on 9KWh continuous unlike 18 fet infineon size of 24 math boxes over 1kg, 8kwh + 3minutes and you can not touch it anymore

What 18 FET controller were you using? I'm curious because I haven't purchased a 2nd one to compare to my modded one. I can dump over 8KWH into my EB318 IRFB4115 controller for 10 mins almost continuously (over 100wh/mile) while using regen to slow down and the hottest FET temp I was able to record was 57C when it was 18C outside. The case of the 18 FET got to 28C after running like this. This was using 125V 70A battery current feeding a not too happy 9C 2806 which was getting pretty toasty after that abuse.

If you are saying you got yours so hot you couldn't touch it after just 3 mins at only 8 KW, then the mods I did to mine must be an epic difference. You have a PM

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

The only time my controller even gets warm to the touch, is if I'm pulling something heavy at low speeds. I was trying to pull a car around, and the controller got warm after 20-30 seconds of WOT at 2 MPH. I don't really have any thermal issues with my 12 FET Infenion, It throws out 8kW without much hassle. With a new beefier motor, I'm going to be needing something a bit more substantial. I'd like it to be capable of 15kW without a fuss.

I probably should have clarified. The first assembly was designed to fail. I was testing out snubber placement, and I assume it was a voltage spike that took the FET's out. It was just thrown together. For some reason I feel the need to blow a few things up before I try to make it work. I tend to start off running things at the electrical limits, then back it down once it proves to be reliable. If the controller actually performs as expected, I won't be able to blow it up before the 50A breaker trips.

I'm not sure I ever had a KFF incident, and I do all kinds of things I probably shouldn't. Me and electricity get along. I've always assumed that should an issue arise, it would sort itself out in short order, meaning a fuse is not required. Fuses do nothing but impede electron flow. I want the issue to be stunningly obvious when stuff goes boom. That said, fuses are probably a good idea for most setups.

 

[whatever]

a bit off topic but might be of interest, fisher paykel washing machines, have a water jacket used to cool the mosfets,
already set up, but is for smaller size fets.

 

[zombiess]

a bit off topic but might be of interest, fisher paykel washing machines, have a water jacket used to cool the mosfets,
already set up, but is for smaller size fets.

Got any links? That's definitely on topic, just a tangent since it's most likely TO-220 sized.

BTW, TO-220's fit inside this ram cooler perfectly since they are thinner. I have my heart set on TO-247's though since I'm doing an add on board. Just got the tracking number too, 4 of them get here on Thursday. Let's hope I didn't make any mistakes in the design. Controller should be operational by the weekend after many painful hours of transferring parts from my blown EB212 FET to the new EB312 board.

 

[parabellum]

What 18 FET controller were you using? I'm curious because I haven't purchased a 2nd one to compare to my modded one. I can dump over 8KWH into my EB318 IRFB4115 controller for 10 mins almost continuously (over 100wh/mile) while using regen to slow down and the hottest FET temp I was able to record was 57C when it was 18C outside. The case of the 18 FET got to 28C after running like this. This was using 125V 70A battery current feeding a not too happy 9C 2806 which was getting pretty toasty after that abuse.

If you are saying you got yours so hot you couldn't touch it after just 3 mins at only 8 KW, then the mods I did to mine must be an epic difference. You have a PM

60 C is about the temperature you can not keep your hand on it and it gets worse with every C. Controller 18 fet irfb EB218 Lyens. It was getting hot on HS motor marked as R5303. It is 3 wind motor so low resistance and inductance. Controller was over 60 C even on long (over 3 min) relatively flat rides at 7- 10KW constant on 24s lipo and really hot on climbs (last of them killed motor and consequently controller). It was much cooler with Mxus DD and GM 1000w DD, which are same inner design with slightly slimmer stators but much higher wind count.

Edit: irfb4110

 

[zombiess]

What 18 FET controller were you using? I'm curious because I haven't purchased a 2nd one to compare to my modded one. I can dump over 8KWH into my EB318 IRFB4115 controller for 10 mins almost continuously (over 100wh/mile) while using regen to slow down and the hottest FET temp I was able to record was 57C when it was 18C outside. The case of the 18 FET got to 28C after running like this. This was using 125V 70A battery current feeding a not too happy 9C 2806 which was getting pretty toasty after that abuse.

If you are saying you got yours so hot you couldn't touch it after just 3 mins at only 8 KW, then the mods I did to mine must be an epic difference. You have a PM

60 C is about the temperature you can not keep your hand on it and it gets worse with every C. Controller 18 fet irfb EB218 Lyens. It was getting hot on HS motor marked as R5303. It is 3 wind motor so low resistance and inductance. Controller was over 60 C even on long (over 3 min) relatively flat rides at 7- 10KW constant on 24s lipo and really hot on climbs (last of them killed motor and consequently controller). It was much cooler with Mxus DD and GM 1000w DD, which are same inner design with slightly slimmer stators but much higher wind count.

Edit: irfb4110

Let me guess, you had it in a 26" wheel, right? Big wheels are the devil for on road performance and climbing, think small, like 20-22". Everything works much better. After my first ride on 20" wheels I don't think I'll ever build anything larger than 24".

My 9C 8x8 in a 26" wheel at 100V 40A is a fun ride, but is a slug compared to my 9c 2806 in 20" wheels, even at the same wattage. Like a Corvette racing a stock Honda difference. The fact that it is a slug is a good thing though because I designed it to get some exercise and pedal along at speeds under 33mph.

 

[parabellum]

Let me guess, you had it in a 26" wheel, right? Big wheels are the devil for on road performance and climbing, think small, like 20-22". Everything works much better. After my first ride on 20" wheels I don't think I'll ever build anything larger than 24".

My 9C 8x8 in a 26" wheel at 100V 40A is a fun ride, but is a slug compared to my 9c 2806 in 20" wheels, even at the same wattage. Like a Corvette racing a stock Honda difference. The fact that it is a slug is a good thing though because I designed it to get some exercise and pedal along at speeds under 33mph.

No, it was 17" motorcycle rim. Just under 22" wheel diameter. We are kind of getting of topic a little.

 

[zombiess]

Let me guess, you had it in a 26" wheel, right? Big wheels are the devil for on road performance and climbing, think small, like 20-22". Everything works much better. After my first ride on 20" wheels I don't think I'll ever build anything larger than 24".

My 9C 8x8 in a 26" wheel at 100V 40A is a fun ride, but is a slug compared to my 9c 2806 in 20" wheels, even at the same wattage. Like a Corvette racing a stock Honda difference. The fact that it is a slug is a good thing though because I designed it to get some exercise and pedal along at speeds under 33mph.

No, it was 17" motorcycle rim. Just under 22" wheel diameter. We are kind of getting of topic a little.

Yes a little off topic, but it still relates to controller over heating and failure. I'm interested in what people were doing when they had parts fail. 22" is a great setup, your motor is probably just too low of an inductance to properly drive, just like those little bastard out runners that can do crazy power.

Back on topic now

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Didn't anyone think of using peltier elements or those laptop cooling mats, special heat-absorbent substances etc to try and cool their systems?

Air cooling was used in motor vehicles in North Africa in WW2, its kind of hard to beat mounting the controller and setting it up so that air is forced in by the speed of the bike itself, with a rear vent to allow the hotter air to escape.

 

[zombiess]

Didn't anyone think of using peltier elements or those laptop cooling mats, special heat-absorbent substances etc to try and cool their systems?

Air cooling was used in motor vehicles in North Africa in WW2, its kind of hard to beat mounting the controller and setting it up so that air is forced in by the speed of the bike itself, with a rear vent to allow the hotter air to escape.

Peltiers are horrible inefficient devices. In order to use one on an ebike the best way would be to use it to chill the water in a thermos before cycling it through a water block, during high load it probably wouldn't keep up with the thermal demand, but it would slow the temp rise. It would also add more weight, and more complexity to do an even somewhat useful setup. I already have a two pass 6 peltier water chiller sitting around so I might try it at some point for the sake of testing, but I don't like the size of it.

 

[parabellum]

its kind of hard to beat mounting the controller and setting it up so that air is forced in by the speed of the bike itself, with a rear vent to allow the hotter air to escape.

Heating is more of a problem at low speed high load.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

its kind of hard to beat mounting the controller and setting it up so that air is forced in by the speed of the bike itself, with a rear vent to allow the hotter air to escape.

Heating is more of a problem at low speed high load.

Yes, it is, so at the top of a hill where the road finally flattens out you could get up to speed and let some air flow through the controller. The only place you really be beaten is where the hill goes on and on and on and in that case you would probably alter the entire build rather than the controller.

 

[amberwolf]

Peltiers are horrible inefficient devices.

FWIW, I have one of those peltier-fridge/heater things for travel, and it's about two cubic feet inside. Has a single 3"x3" peltier (maybe smaller) and a 6"x6" (maybe bigger) heatsink with 1" fins, and a 120mm fan pushing air across the heatsink. I don't remmember the power consumption, but I think it's something like 4 or 5A at 12V, possibly more, and the heatsink gets pretty warm.

But it still takes like an hour to chill down a 2 liter bottle of water (that started at the same temperature as the room air) to "refrigerator" temperatures, in a 75-80F room. I never measured the interior temperature at the end of that, but it is at a guess 40-45F? It's been a few years since I used it; I'm tempted to dig it out and do the experiment to get the numbers again...but I am lazy with too many other things to do, so I probably won't, unless someone really needs the data.

 

[parabellum]

Peltiers are horrible inefficient devices.

FWIW, I have one of those peltier-fridge/heater things for travel, and it's about two cubic feet inside. Has a single 3"x3" peltier (maybe smaller) and a 6"x6" (maybe bigger) heatsink with 1" fins, and a 120mm fan pushing air across the heatsink. I don't remmember the power consumption, but I think it's something like 4 or 5A at 12V, possibly more, and the heatsink gets pretty warm.

But it still takes like an hour to chill down a 2 liter bottle of water (that started at the same temperature as the room air) to "refrigerator" temperatures, in a 75-80F room. I never measured the interior temperature at the end of that, but it is at a guess 40-45F? It's been a few years since I used it; I'm tempted to dig it out and do the experiment to get the numbers again...but I am lazy with too many other things to do, so I probably won't, unless someone really needs the data.

I have tried to cool 100W LED matrix with 90W peltier (it was ~50w on 12v) and CPU heat sink with no ventilator, I burned half of the matrix in few minutes. Just same heatsink + ventilator and no peltier in between was better cooling and managed to do the work. This peltiers can bump certain amount of heat, after the limit is reached they act as very bad thermal path.

 

[rhitee05]

Peltiers are really only useful for controlling temperatures, not for moving large amounts of heat. I've used astronomical CCD cameras, for example, which had Peltiers to cool the CCD to around -60 C for better noise. Forget about them for this stuff.

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

Peltiers can work OK for cooling, so long as you don't care about power consumption.

On a bike, cooling liquid that cools the FET's? Thats a huge loss of power for next to no gains.

 

[AussieJester]

Peltiers are really only useful for controlling temperatures, not for moving large amounts of heat. I've used astronomical CCD cameras, for example, which had Peltiers to cool the CCD to around -60 C for better noise. Forget about them for this stuff.

Peltiers have been used quite successfully in CPU cooling, but as ZOMG said they aren't efficient at what they do
and the hot side also needs cooling, they are effectively just solid state heat pumps, one side will get extremely
cold, freezing cold if you cool the hot side well enough. I have used 80watt TECs on GPUs in the past
the cold side on the GPU the hot side cooled by the watercooling loop in the PC
you can get them as large as 420watt IIRC... Bit over kill for this application IMHO, would also
introduce the whole condensation factor into the equation, you would then need to
insulate the controller etc etc ... more trouble than its worth definitely.

KiM

 

[zombiess]

Guys, if you want to play with a peltier chiller you need something like this

Then use it to store cool the water in a reservoir (such as a thermos) before you start riding. This unit will handle something like 150W of heat I believe and I used it as a chiller on a CPU water cooling setup before and it worked pretty well.

It might make it on my bike, but only for an experiment, it's bulky, ugly, power hungry and makes things more complicated. Still worth testing since I have it. It's a two pass setup using 6 1.5"x1.5" peltiers, 3 per side, water run in series through it.

I'll probably try it at some point after everything is working just to get some more data since I enjoy testing.

Now that I just brought it out to take a picture to post on here, I want to hook it up to a power supply and see how far below ambient I can get some water with no load, or maybe see how cool I can keep a 50W soldering iron plugged in with the tip mounted to a water block... that could be a good test.

Gotta get my controller built first before playing around and getting too side tracked. Focus on the task at hand.

 

[rhitee05]

The only reason that TECs are sometimes used for PC cooling is to obtain below-ambient temperatures for super over-clocking. A mediocre watercooling setup would have more heat removal capacity than a fancy TEC-based cooler. FETs see very little benefit from below-ambient temperatures. Yes, the Rdson will be lower, but you'll be wasting far more power in cooling than you'll gain in efficiency. If you set up a decent watercooling system and can keep the FETs at say 75 C junction temp, you'll still be doing quite well compared to most air cooling and getting a small efficiency boost from the lower Rdson to boot.

 

[zombiess]

The only reason that TECs are sometimes used for PC cooling is to obtain below-ambient temperatures for super over-clocking. A mediocre watercooling setup would have more heat removal capacity than a fancy TEC-based cooler. FETs see very little benefit from below-ambient temperatures. Yes, the Rdson will be lower, but you'll be wasting far more power in cooling than you'll gain in efficiency. If you set up a decent watercooling system and can keep the FETs at say 75 C junction temp, you'll still be doing quite well compared to most air cooling and getting a small efficiency boost from the lower Rdson to boot.

Staying under 75C case temp is exactly what my goal is. I just posted the water chiller since people were talking about it and I had it sitting in a cabinet to show what would be needed. If you guys want to race on a water cooled anything, just add lots of ice to the reservoir before the race. I see people do it all the time at the race track on air to water inter coolers.

 

[zombiess]

Ok, just bumping this thread with some progress pics. Unfortunately my Hubzilla problems have kept me from making the massive progress I thought I would have on this this weekend. If I wouldn't have had to spend 20 hours trouble shooting trying different things and I'm still not fixed yet (but am 99% sure I found the issue) I would have had this controller done and ready for testing.

Anyways, here are the progress pics for those following this.

Double 12 gauge copper used to beef up the phase traces

Triple 12 gauge copper used on the main battery feed trace, the other traces are single 12 gauge

side view showing the thickness and how the board warped (not a big deal, got 3 more boards just like this, this one just won't be as pretty.

side shot with water block in place showing the clearance. Lots of room, no chances for shorts

Water block and FETs in place showing top side of the board

FETs in place ready to solder, this shot also shows how thick I made most of the traces. Lots of copper lots of solder, planning for high current.

If you guys like this, you should see the next water block I've already designed that is being built for me by etard (he already has my specs and should have the first few blocks done in 2-3 weeks). Less than 1.75" thick total installed width, main block 1.5" high x 5" long x 0.75 thick, three 0.25 bores to run water through, FETs clamped to the block to maintain pressure and every block holds up to 12 TO-247 FETs. While I'm on vacation I'll start to design the circuit boards that these will go on. This water block configuration will allow you to build up to a 72 FET TO-247 (using 6 blocks) and proper drivers. My plan is to build 18-36 FET controller with them. Only need 2 blocks for 24 FETs which lets me keep the overall package small. I'm also using IRF2110 FET drivers with a buffer to drive the gates so no worries about not being able to drive the gates into full saturation. I will offer several different circuit board options depending on what the user wants.

I'm hoping to be able to run a 24 FET controller at a continuous 20KW (10KW per block), but I'll have to wait until I'm further along in testing before making any solid claims as to their ability to shed heat, but past experience with my modded IRFB4115 controller sucking in a continuous 8KW for minutes at a time and staying under 55C with just air cooling (no fans stock sealed 18 FET case) show quite a bit of promise for these designs just on the aluminum chunks alone which have much more mass than the puny spreader bars on the stock controllers. I've burst as high as 101 battery amps and probably 220 phase amps on my EB318 IRFB4115 controller the other day messing around for a minute. Controller didn't even get warm but I'm not sure if my batteries were to happy since it was only a 24S2P pack made from 20C cells.

Everyone tells me the 18 FET 4115 controller is very limited, but I'm seeing huge performance ability from mine after modding it, I think these FETs are getting an undeserved bad rap because of poor thermal design on the controllers. Just a few simple (but time consuming) mods and my 18 FET is 125 volt beast high amp beast. I can't wait to try out the IRFP4568s and water cooling them. Way more power handling ability and almost half the RDSon value of the IRFP4115s.

Big things to come in the future. These setups will be for sale once I'm confident they are working correctly. They will be setup to be controlled by the Xie Chang controller boards or universal gate driver / power connections. Boards will be designed similar to this one, but most likely with more space for adding more copper since each bock should be able to handle lots of power. I will most likely provide 4, 6 and 8 gauge holes on each module for power and 6 and 8 gauge for phase so the end user can choose their wire size for their own application. I'm trying to keep these compact with a good layout. I'm also working on several mods for the Xie Chang boards such as add on shunt boards which will be needed to handle such high currents and be able to dissipate the shunt heat.

Good things are coming and after testing I'll manufacture several sets for those interested. First up will be a 24 FET using two water blocks most likely controlled by a 12 or 18 FET EB312 or EB318 controller. Boards should be delivered to me in mid Jan. I'm getting a bit a head of myself, but want everyone to know I'm committed to making this happen. We need high voltage high current low cost controllers to make this happen. I'm also researching on what I need to do to get the EB3XX based boards to operate up to 200V so 40S setups can become a reality.

I hope you guys like my work.

 

[parabellum]

Nice boards. Leg spacing of T0247 will give real advantage for beefing up.
Do you have casing concept in mind?
What fets do you have in mind for 200V setup?

 

[andreym]

What fets do you have in mind for 200V setup?

IRFP4668 i believe

 

[zombiess]

What fets do you have in mind for 200V setup?

IRFP4668 i believe

yes, the IRFP4668 is the one I plan to use if can figure out how to make the voltage supply work reliably.

Stats:
RDSon of 8.0-9.7 mOhm
continuous drain current of 130A@25C or 92A@100C
rated for 520W power dissipation

In comparison a IRFB4115
RDSon of 9.3-11 mOhm
continuous drain current of 104A@25C or 74A@100C
rated for 380W power dissipation

A controller with 24-36 of these would be a pretty bad ass high voltage controller. I'm sticking to the 150V stuff for now though since I don't have to do any crazy mods to make them work.

I have a 15 hour plane ride to Hong Kong tomorrow so I'll probably be doing some electronic design and circuit board layout since they provide power plugs on the plane. Gives me something to do if I can't sleep and I can rarely sleep on an airplane.