Advice on first kit

The_machina

1 µW
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
3
Location
Charlotte NC
I'm looking to get an ebike conversion kit, and want to make sure that I make smart choices. Was hoping for advice.

My situation:
  • Clydesdale who used to bike 15 to 60 miles a day, but haven't ridden in a couple years.
  • Would like to convert my rocky Mountain edge (full suspension) to an ebike and use it to commute (4 miles each way, mostly flat)
  • Plan to hopefully get a front load cargo bike (Larry vs Harry bullitt) to run errands with my two young kids (and electrify that bike). The kit on the edge could then be moved to a bike for my wife.
  • Budget of approx 1100 usd for the conversion

Looking at the Luna cycles magic pie conversion kit. Gets me a good battery in a hard case, sine wave controller, etc. Would I be better off with a mac 10t or the ezee? Would love a bbshd but that would never work to pass down to my wife. If and when it gets passed to my wife, is torque based PAS easier for a newbie than throttling?
 
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
 
Thanks for at least toning it down a notch E trike.

RE the kit itself,, you will need a much more unbreakable direct drive motor for the cargo bike later. The mac 10 t is not so good for overweight bikes, and hills. If hills simply don't exist where you are that is one thing. But I suspect once you have the assist, you will want to go where the hills are.

But,,,,, you know,,,, you won't want to move the kit to the cargo bike,, you'll want two ebikes by then. I assure you this is true. :mrgreen: For your commute needs,, and some recreational riding, the Mac is a very good choice.

Personally, I come from lots of motorcycle riding, and never had much trouble adapting to throttles. If you do go with PAS,,get one that is fairly easy to tune to your preferences. This could be pedal sensor type, but that is likely way out of your budget. Increase the budget if you want that pas.

But riding throttle is not so hard, once you get over the initial whoo ha effect where you just ride wide open throttle all the time. Its fun at first for sure!

But after the whooo ha wears out a bit, just pick the gear you always liked to ride in, or maybe just the highest gear. Use the full throttle to get going, then back off and settle into your favorite cadence in that gear. Then gently bring back up the throttle till it's easy, but you don't have to chase the motor increasing your cadence. Steady cadence and steady speed regardless of wind or hills is the thing you want.

Now you are in the butter zone,, perfect cadence, perfect effort, plenty of speed, and you can keep that up for hours and never tire on any hill. It's also the very most efficient way you can ride at any given speed. You can get this perfect ride with pas,, but once you get it to be automatic using the throttle, you will spend much more time in the perfect cadence than you do with PAS.

Get that pas tuned wrong,, you'll just chase that motor all day, or not get enough help, or spend the whole ride swinging from one extreme to the other. This is very typical of cadence type cheap pas. Often not easily tunable by the user, if at all, and not enough magnets on the cadence ring.

To me,, isn't it easier to just turn a throttle a hair, than search for the right pas setting, or have to change your cadence for a hill. Steady cadence is much better than pas.

Now that is for you. For your wife,, spending the money on real pas might work best once you figure out how to tune it for her.

My wife,, she's rode scooters and stuff with throttles, but she just simply won't adjust to throttle use on an e bike. Not can't,, wont, know what I mean? Can't get over the feeling like a cheater thing, Can't seem to find that butter zone, or simply won't look for it. Beats me. She just pedaled too much on road bikes when young to change now or something. She also fails to adjust to MTB gearing, she pedals in too high gear at slow cadence. It took me some time too, to get used to the super low MTB gears, pedaling at higher cadence in a lower gear.
 
1) IMO discount anything eT says about Luna Cycle; apparently he received a product that he thought was inferior and has a vendetta against them --- read his signature. I and many others have received excellent products, prompt service and courteous advice from Luna Cycle.

2) I THINK THAT IT"S TIME FOR THE MODS TO ACT OR POTENTIALLY EVERY NEW INDIVIDUAL AND THREAD WILL BE POISONED. THERE SHOULD BE NO VENDETTAS ON ES.

3) Other than that DD"s advice is always spot on although I'm also a former motorcyclist (street and off road) and prefer pedal assist. You'll have difficulty finding torque-based PAS on anything but OEM bikes which generally are more expensive. I've ridden many (Bosch, Brose, Shimano, TransX and Yamaha at least), own a Yamaha-based system, and all have been good to great

4) Probably, it will be a challenge installing the battery on your FS bike. FME, rear motors and batteries on rear racks aren't desirable because the weight distribution isn't optimal.
 
I have a Goldenmotors V4 SmartPie and I can not recommend them.

My first gripe is the excess weight. These are really heavy motors.
My second gripe is that the software required to 'program' the controller runs only on Windows and is sometimes very picky about what windows computer it runs on. That is not a problem for many people but I use Linux and chasing down a Windows machine the software is happy with is a royal pain in the southern most region.

But by far my biggest gripe is their 'soft-start' sine wave controller. The point I really want that electric motor to contribute is when I am crossing a busy intersection. Unfortunately I may be more than half across before the motor kicks in. The Goldenmotor 'soft start' is nothing short of a safety hazard. My understanding is that they use the same controller on ALL their pie motors. For this reason I can not foresee ever buying another Goldenmotors product.

I did not see what battery you were considering but I will add these comments:
The Goldenmotors systems does NOT have a switch in the controller or motor or display therefore you really want one on the battery pack.

The Goldenmotors Rack batteries do have a keyed switch and their rack mount batteries are very good quality if somewhat heavy. I have never had any problems with the GM battery pack and no complaints other than the weight (oh ... and that big ugly Anderson connector).

The Dolphin packs do have a built in switch. I have an recent email from Lunacycle that states that they have had problems with switched battery packs and that their solution to the problem is to remove the switch. To be fair they did not specify which battery packs had the switch problem.

The advantage of the Shark battery packs are that they a tad smaller than the Dolphin but the Shark battery packs do NOT have a switch. If you do get a Shark pack consider the 48 volt vs the 52 volt version. In my opinion the 52 volt version has too much crammed into too little space (I have a 52 Volt shark battery pack).
 
FWIW, I don't know Eric and have never met him, but I abhor bullies like the one posting these lies about me. It's up to the user to decide who to believe. I've received excellent service from the products that Luna has sold me (full price from their web site). Compare Luna's prices with any other site; they're always equal or lower for the same product. Then read how this individual has spread his bile.
 
I'm going to need both of you to stop jumping into threads like this and using it as a place to argue whether lunacycle is good or bad. This does not help the person asking the question at all. I have seen you two crowd up more than a few threads unnecessarily. It's getting old.


OK.. back to our regular programming..

The magic pie is a very outdated kit.. the direct drive motor is one of the least efficient out there, although it's a good bang for the buck. Golden motor has had something like 4-5 iterations of internal controllers and every single one seems to be prone to early failure. Just do a search for 'magic pie' on endless sphere and you'll see lots of complaints.

Mid drives seem to be the least reliable of all types of kits, even these days..

If you want reliability.. a direct drive is the way to go although it is heavy. I would go for 30-35mm wide leafmotor or mxus direct drives for your application, as long as you aren't looking to push beyond 40mph.

The MAC motor is probably my favorite motor of all time due to it's lightness to power ratio. I was around 270lbs when i was depending on it to get me around.. the ezee is just a more expensive variant that is lighter and a little less powerful. It may have higher quality internals to match the price, but nobody has pulled both apart side by side to compare.

Your choice in drive really has more to do with the power level and type of terrain you're going to be riding in. A mid drive is great for climbing really steep hills, but if you don't have monster hills to climb, a direct drive or geared ( MAC ) will work for you just fine... even if you are heavier.
 
Thank you all for the wealth of information.

To elaborate on what I'm hoping for:
20 mph max speed on level ground
Enough range for a 10-15 mile round-trip commute without punishing the battery
I've got a good 26" full-suspension mountain bike (lots of space in the triangle to mount a battery) that I'm planning to convert. Has 203mm hydraulic disc brakes front and rear and ideally I'd be able to run a 9 speed cassette on the back.
I'm currently 300lbs, but losing weight. Hope to get back down to the 250# range after spending more time outside.
I'm comfortable using throttle only, but if/when I move this kit to a bike for my wife, I'd ideally get a torque-sensing BB and set it up for a good PAS system for her.

Sorry that some people have had a bad experience with Luna cycles. I got the recommendation for them through some online list of "best e-bike kit for your budget" builds, and most builds on there specced luna batteries.

So, at this point, the plan would be:
Some decent DD hub motor and external 30A controller, decent 48v or 52v battery, throttle, display.
OR:
Some decent geared motor (MAC 10T CST? MAC 12T CST?), external 30A controller, decent 48v or 52v battery, throttle, display.

Which way to go?
 
Welcome to the Post, This is my first post on advice. I have built 3 "street bikes" with Direct Drive motors and
3 "trail bikes" with Mac 8t motors. Without a doubt the Light weight of the Mac motors and more efficient use of
Amps makes me now favor the Geared motors over the Heavy direct drive motors. The Mac Motor is dependable and will
last a long time if not abused. The only advantage of the direct drive motor is that they can take more watts (power).
From where? Your battery, so you need more battery weight for the same amount of Average riding. And forget about
hill climbing. Direct drive motors hate climbing any hill. My Favorite? Mac 8 turn for all around riding- Street, commute, trail. I would probably also use a Mac 8 turn on a trike. Really? we have to move these things back and forth. And after regularly riding 6 different ebikes, I definitely like the lighter Geared bikes -- Mac and BMC.
 
For your weight, plus hills,, Direct Drive motor. Riders above 250 pounds are really pushing the limits for geared motors, if the hills are long, or just frequent.

I'm not here to slam a vendor, or other agenda. I have tested both kinds of motors to destruction on hills. I have not smoked a DD motor ever, without giving it 6x its rated power level. I've climbed hills 10 miles long, nearly all 8% grade. I have smoked gear motors easily. 400 pounds will do er, on a hill that is 5 miles long, with 8% max grade. That is why I say a 300 pound rider, 35 pound bike, and 25 pounds of motor and battery is too close to the limit for a big hill, or series of smaller ones. at 350 pounds total, you might make one hill, smoke yer motor on the next one.

By hills,, I mean above 5% grade. So if you go for a geared motor, try to stay off the steep or long hills till you pedal off at least 30 pounds or so.

You can do it,, even with low effort, if your rides are long enough, it tricks your body into burning a lot of fat after you get off. Revs you up, if you ride 1-2 hours daily.
 
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