Advice on the values of different mid drives

H

Ham

10 kW
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
501
Hi All,

I am gathering information on mid drive motor kits for offroading a hard tale Kona and so far have narrowed my choices to one of three kits of extremely varied costs:

1) Cyclone 3kw motor kit direct from Cyclone-TW
2) Lightning Rod kit
3) Some form of Astro powered bike

Ideally I'd run the set up with a 72v 20ah or 48v 30ah but am realistic in cost that I may end up with a 48v 20ah power source to start.

It is not that price is not an issue for me but more that I am willing to pay to have a solid bike that may well end replacing my motorbike, which would mean a significant saving, making this an investment as well as a fun project.

I like the ease of the Cyclone kit but am unconvinced of motor durability and the support network?

I have read so much on the Lightning Rod kit and am exchanging emails with Mike...I absolutely love the workmanship that has gone in to the motors and the support netork for that motor from Mike and on here.

An Astro 3220 powered bike seems like a unicorn to me but I have no clue about a comparison of power, torque etc between that and the LR kit...


I have spent so many hours reading this forum now that I could really use some input from people that have been involved first hand with any of the above set ups to help me decide which way my build should go....

My perfect bike would be:

capable of at least 35mph and have the ability to run off road trails no problem....I understand range is a function of battery size and how throttle happy I am :)

I am fairly confident with my hands having spent my life working on motorbikes, 4x4's and welders but electrics have been known to foil me in the past :)

I have so many questions in my head but I'll leave them there for now!

I look forward to any input...

Thanks in advance

H
 
New to me Sir...all over the reading right now :)

Thank you for the direction...

Can anybody shed some light over the benefits each has over the other?

The reviews I'v read to date, together with the ES thread on the evolution of the LR kit has me swaying heavily that way right now but I'd really like to hear experiences others have had on any of the others motors/kits

It easy for me to get blinded when I've spent so much time reading about one kit over others and I'd hate to miss something I've overlooked about another option!

Thanks again
 
I hear that!
LR I think is the most popular to date? But imo the newer Tangent would be my particular interest for a kit. They all have pro's and con's for different preferences/ end goals of course, however I've only direct experience with my diy, which I feel checks the right boxes for me. There are similar builds around, and bzhwind sells a whole bike. Thought I'd mention since you'd not heard of Tangent yet.

Good luck, and welcome to es!
 
The more information and opinions I can gather, the better so I really appreciate the input so far.

The LR looks beautiful and from what I can understand,handles higher voltages and thus speed than the Tangent kit but then I love the size of Tangent kit and the tiny astro/castle controller combo....

I'd like to keep the bike as "clean" as possible and a tiny controller rather than a bigger box meets that criteria....

Swings and round abouts so far!

Keep it coming:)

Thanks for the warm welcome

H
 
Beats me how you'll save money, once you start riding at the level where a $700 front shock is considered a cheap inadequate piece of shit.

But a nice ride with half the power of your motorcycle, AND a quarter the weight, can still be a very nice ride. Well worth the money you wasted on it.

Commuters save money with their e bikes. Especially those with cargo bikes who can dump the car entirely. But NONE of us here has saved money getting hooked on high powered e bikes. You know how it is, your budget is how much money you have, or your charge card limit.

I'm not saying don't do it, off road electric is a blast. Even pretty low powered off road bikes are so fun, because they are light and handle so great. But save money? :lol: :lol:
 
The Cyclone was what got me started on all this and it is very tempting at that price point...I'm just trying to understand what elements make it that much cheaper than LR, Tangent etc?

I've also been reading up on the newer GNG 2000w mid drive kit: am I right in thinking this is the same motor as the Lightning Rod "small block"? Does anyone here have experience of the newer kits that have been beefed up with wider belts and better mounts (I'm sure they felt the pressure from LR's upgraded versions of their original).


Does anyone know if a tiny Castle Creations controller could be paired with either the Cyclone, GNG or LR kits?

Thanks everyone
 
kits that have been beefed up with wider belts and better mounts
Click to expand...

I have both the Cyclone 3000 and the LR Small Block mounted on ebikes. You assume wider belts have solved some problem? At 178 miles the gates belt on my LR SM BK tore on 2 sides. Lightning Rod had no Gates belts in his parts store. I found they are half his price elsewhere on the internet.

My Cyclone 3000 is still running and the bike can climb steeper hills than the LRSB.

My Advice: You will likely get the C3000 soon after payment. LR is more than willing to sit on your money, promise sooner and deliver later -- much later. You can get 2 kits of the C3000 and have $200 left for weed compared to buying one LRSB.

The LR SB is somewhat noisy -- You can hear the chain noise? in every non silenced GoPRo vid using his setup. The C 3000 is far more quiet.

You will have to additionally stabilized the C3000 frame but you can find these modification/instructions here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867

and look under at the articles of the poster gman1971. If you lack all mechanical inclination get a complete ebike.

You will be riding much sooner with the C 3000 than the LRSB and this time is valuable.

And get this: If you ever say anything on the LRSB website that is true and would possibly hurt the LR sales reputation he will stop selling you parts unless you delete that post. By doing this type of censorship the customer finds little feedback about what purchasing and products from the LR site are like.
 
Wow. ^
I recently noticed cyclone must use a lower kV motor, because it looled like the motor went single reduction direct to the crank. That would be a big bonus imo, in simplicity benefiting initial cost, and aiding upkeep, appearance, and noise from reductions.
The Cyclone was what got me started on all this and it is very tempting at that price point...I'm just trying to understand what elements make it that much cheaper than LR, Tangent etc?

I've also been reading up on the newer GNG 2000w mid drive kit: am I right in thinking this is the same motor as the Lightning Rod "small block"? Does anyone here have experience of the newer kits that have been beefed up with wider belts and better mounts (I'm sure they felt the pressure from LR's upgraded versions of their original).

Does anyone know if a tiny Castle Creations controller could be paired with either the Cyclone, GNG or LR kits?
Click to expand...
I could only hazard guesses.
1: simpler.
2: think so. no experience here tho.
3: no idea what criteria is needed to use that esc, but am curious.
Let us know what you find out Op!
 
I have Tangent, Cyclone, and Bafang bikes.
(I tried to buy a DaVinciDrive...but he wouldn't answer my questions.)

The Tangent is superior in every way to the others.
It's build quality and customer service are unmatched.
It is the smallest lightest AND high powered kit out there....barely know it's there when the motor is unpowered.
The only downside is the sound, but I love that sound personally)

The Cyclone3000 has similar power and speed to the Tangent with the same battery.
It weighs 5-6 pounds more than the Tangent but is much quieter.
It has great power and acceleration, but every single part feels like it will fail at some point.
Rickety construction, but quite powerfull for the money.

BafangHD has much less power and has failed a couple times already, pain to work on.
It works, and if babied, could be a good option if you arent a wild rider.

Basicly...all the others are ramshackle awkward Chinese builds....the Tangent is all USA, no corners cut.
...and his new 20:1 transmission should be much quieter.
Buy top quality, get top quality...for me as less of a tweaker than most here, i wanted it to just work.

"“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin

Tangent...
DSC_0009.jpg

Cyclone3000...
View attachment 1

BafangHD...
DSC_0014.jpg
 
Loving the replies, thanks guys...

I made my decision back in Feb and am now awaiting the arrival of the Tangent 20:1 Astro 3220 :) any day now...first in Europe so I am told....tingling with anticipation
 
HamsFitness said:
Loving the replies, thanks guys...

I made my decision back in Feb and am now awaiting the arrival of the Tangent 20:1 Astro 3220 :) any day now...first in Europe so I am told....tingling with anticipation
Click to expand...

Awesome! When it arrives and you've installed it would you mind putting a video up of the sound it makes please? I'm super interested in how the new 20:1 sounds. Cheers :)
 
Well my tangent kit arrived today...setting up tomorrow....silly excited.
 
HamsFitness said:
Well my tangent kit arrived today...setting up tomorrow....silly excited.
Click to expand...
Mate I'm excited for you!!! Looking forward to the vids. Did you get stung for import duties?
 
PtotheK said:
HamsFitness said:
Well my tangent kit arrived today...setting up tomorrow....silly excited.
Click to expand...
Mate I'm excited for you!!! Looking forward to the vids. Did you get stung for import duties?
Click to expand...


It's on and is a hoot...a torque monster hoot!

Still some tinkering to do with the CA3 I think but first impressions are:

First and foremost, it is brilliant fun...although I should add that I have zero ebike experience before this but I do have 27 years of thrashing and crashing dirt bikes from 2 stokes to 400 4 strokers, muscle bikes, sports bikes and the infamous Vmax so I am cool with big power on 2 wheels....

The starting torque on this unit is hilarious...never have wheelies been so easy.

The kit is plush, right out the box every bit looks and feels lovingly hand made and incredibly solid.

The installation was smooth once I had the right tools and understood how each part interacted with another.

Cabling is simple and intuitive.

The lack of noise is something to get use to for sure....a small whine and whir is worlds apart from a thumper dirt bike...the feedback from an engine makes it feel faster...this is Tangent Drive kit is stealth power in a few kilos of future fun right here.

I've been testing, running back and forth to work and basically having a ball for 2 days now...albeit probably only about 2 hours in total so far and have not needed to recharge the two 6s 16ah lipos....I have 4 for 2s2p 50v 32ah that I've not even hooked up yet....I estimate about 10-12 miles of run time at this point. so maybe 15 out of 16ah which may well turn to be 30 miles from the 32ah pack....I should point out again that this is for the 3220 Astro kit with hv160 controller and not the standard kit Dave sells with the smaller 3210 motor and hv80 controller which will be more "fuel" efficient.

Sunday will tell more when I go out with the boys on their dirt bikes for our usual offroad route.

On a private road I've topped out at 39mph so far with the two batteries down to about 46v and about 300wh left, running the amps to 150 max but have only peaked at 133 thus far....not sure what I have to do to draw more as the motor was given some abuse to get that....I'll find a way no doubt.


Of note to others.....don't let people without motorbike or high power e bike experience ride this...2 tried today and despite my setting lower power and giving instruction...both flipped it out from underneath them. No non bikers from now on unless it is tamed waaaaay down.


General note: tuck trousers into to socks so you don't have to call for a knife to cut your mangled trousers off your leg before being able to dismount....ahem...

And a little snap shot tease before the videos roll....

Stomp.gif
 
spinningmagnets said:
Does anyone know if a tiny Castle Creations controller could be paired with either the Cyclone, GNG or LR kits?
Click to expand...

No. Search posts from Jeremy Harris to find the exact explanation why.
Click to expand...


I'll get to it soon as I stop having fun on this electric bronco :) Thanks for the advice
 
Awesome man! I feel the same exact way about decent power mid drive ebikes for offroad.

They're a suprisingly excellent convergence of bicycling and motosport right off the bat, with much potential for more. I like to say it's like the best of biking, with gravity on your terms. Enjoy it, keep us posted, and think about shooting some vid of the 'antics' ! :wink: :D
 
Video should be gathered tomorrow.

Just need to play with the gearing a little to find the sweet spot between torque and speed and refine my throttle response through the Cycle Analyst it is a little all or nothing right now....any advice on this is appreciated as the CA settings are a little past my current knowledge....not that Dave hasn't been helping me often...only so much one man can be asked to do.
 
I run the ca as monitor only, but would like to try the various potential benefits someday. Sorry I can't help with specifics of that.

Mine is maybe even 'touchier' with 6kw and just one gear for ~ 30+mph on the 90deg or so of throttle twist. I guess yours would be more complicated to get the right 'feel' across many gears, but I just got used to 'speed throttle' (it's all in the wrist :lol:). There's also the 3 speed controller switch that gives full throttle twist range for settable fractions of top speed helpful in tighter areas with tighter control, but that isn't applicable to a small esc often paired with the tangent idt.

Also, having a half grip helps (me) alot. I don't know if you mentioned throttle type, but imo the partial twists are the best for technical control. I am yet to actually try it, but I made another that's only 25% throttle (trimmed from a 'full twist') and 75% lockon grip for even better control. Only the very inside of your hand is ever on the throttle.
 
Running the Domino twist throttle and 1ms ramp seems nicer and more like my dirt bike but that may be changed as I get used to it.

Just exploded my chain whilst trying to set up the AGain to a suitable level :) Fun times
 
Please read this, it may give you some additional insight
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=74343

There are however some new motors out there, which I havent confirmed yet but one is a headline motor running at 8kw. I must add it into my list.

Cyclone, Brushless, 7500w motor - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=79019
QS MOTOR 500W-16kW(Rated) BLDC In Wheel Hub Motor Index - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972
 
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