Anyone know about/tried TOSEVEN Mid Drive?

[Slowchris11]

There are people out there that bought this motor system for a lot of money and where not informed that it is in development, far away from the promised functionality. Yes, this is something I dislike.
If you bought a car from a "normal" brand, you would sue them for refund plus compensation.
They are selling this product, for 400 US$ right now on PSWpower, no mention it is a beta test unit.

Maybe you got it for free or 400 bucks are no money for you...

 

[Elinx]

....
They are selling this product, for 400 US$ right now on PSWpower, no mention it is a beta test unit.

Maybe you got it for free or 400 bucks are no money for you...

If you read the complete thread, you know this is at expense of PSWPower and not Toseven.
They have withdrawn the selling by PSWPower
Toseven does try to solve the problems, because PSWPower doesn't.

I don't have a Toseven motor and $400 is indeed a lot of money for a bad working motor.
That is why I wait for more positive reviews and a more reliable seller.

 

[raylo32]

This goes to my earlier unanswered question... If ToSeven no longer offers these through PSW Power, where CAN they be had?

If you read the complete thread, you know this is at expense of PSWPower and not Toseven.
They have withdrawn the selling by PSWPower
Toseven does try to solve the problems, because PSWPower doesn't.

I don't have a Toseven motor and $400 is indeed a lot of money for a bad working motor.
That is why I wait for more positive reviews and a more reliable seller.

 

[Elinx]

.. If ToSeven no longer offers these through PSW Power, where CAN they be had?

If not supplied locally ... not. Maybe by Toseven directly.

 

[Slowchris11]

So PSWpower stole the kit's from Toseven?
Or did Toseven deliver a non functioning product do a dealer? Do you expect a dealer to solve the problems a manufacturer can not? Chinese dealer in most cases do not even know what they sell. They don't fix anything. Box in, box out, profit made. That is a dealer.
Toseven sold an unfinished product. Probaply because they don't know how to do it right. Which is somehow surprising, as in Chinese tradition, they only tryed to make an improved copy of a working product. Maybe no one noticed.
Someone who really studied and practiced engineering would not need much time to correct the mechanical flaws in all these bike motor constructions.
Software problems? How come there are people that, just for fun, write new and better firmware for these motors? Usually someone who manufactures something should be able to do this right or ask someone to do it, BEFORE selling it to end customers.
By the way, no e-bike manufacturer will buy such a half baked motor. So where are the customers?
No QEM's, no end user?

 

[raylo32]

LOL... if they can't be had anywhere, why are we even talking about them? I am out.

If not supplied locally ... not. Maybe by Toseven directly.

 

[Elinx]

So PSWpower stole the kit's from Toseven?
....

I think not. I really don't know the connections and how the agreements are going between Chinese merchants and producer.
I think Toseven has made some mistakes there, which could not be undone anymore. We never will know.

I'm still satisfied with my 4 years Tsdz2 and wil buy a new one for $250 at PSWPower if it fails tomorrow.
But I don't know what I will do if I can buy a DM02 some time after tomorrow and I have seen some good independent reviews of it.
To be honest. I want to pay $400 for a more reliable product than the Tsdz2, but I'm not willing to pay $800 for it, only to get some local guarantees, service and maybe restricted motor (as Enerprof does already for Tsdz2 with a different controller).

 

[Elinx]

.... if they can't be had anywhere, why are we even talking about them?.....

It all started when PSWPower started to sell them out of the blue on the Tongsheng pages.

If the DMxxx has the same reliability as Bafang it is an interesting option.
But indeed, only if Toseven find the right sellers, with the right price.
A Photon is too expensive for my use.

 

[raylo32]

Photon really doesn't ride much if any better than TSDZ2. Except you have the option to ride more and go faster just on throttle if you want. Not that it would do it for long at very high power. But for pedalec, either system will have you spun out at top speed you can turn the cranks on the 750 watts setting.

But the big problem with Photon is lack of user service and repair ability. I am dealing with a problem with my brand new Photon (see other thread) and after 6 weeks there is no resolution in sight. I read about this potential issue going in but figured what are the chances I'd get a bad one? Well, I got a bad one. LOL. If it was a TSDZ2 I'd just get a new display or controller and pop them in and done. And now I have to play the dealer shuffle via e-mail and UPS... that is if and when they step up and get this repair going. Sheesh.

It all started when PSWPower started to sell them out of the blue on the Tongsheng pages.

If the DMxxx has the same reliability as Bafang it is an interesting option.
But indeed, only if Toseven find the right sellers, with the right price.
A Photon is too expensive for my use.

 

[Joakim]

I think not. I really don't know the connections and how the agreements are going between Chinese merchants and producer.
I think Toseven has made some mistakes there, which could not be undone anymore. We never will know.

I'm still satisfied with my 4 years Tsdz2 and wil buy a new one for $250 at PSWPower if it fails tomorrow.
But I don't know what I will do if I can buy a DM02 some time after tomorrow and I have seen some good independent reviews of it.
To be honest. I want to pay $400 for a more reliable product than the Tsdz2, but I'm not willing to pay $800 for it, only to get some local guarantees, service and maybe restricted motor (as Enerprof does already for Tsdz2 with a different controller).

I would also like to pay $400 for a more reliable tsdz2

I love the way my tsdz2 runs now after tweaking with OSF and changing some parts. The only big downsides for me now are:
- ground clearance
- axle might break

I have kind of learned to live with ground clearance being bad. But axle weakness limits what I am comfortable doing on the bike, and this weakness should be corrected on dm02 according to olekz on discord.

For this and general improved reliability I would happily pay $400. Getting the photon to sweden is more like $1200, a big gamble when I cant fix it if it breaks.

Tsdz2 is so cheap I can have a spare to use while the first one is broken..

Hopefully we get some positive reviews and somewhere to buy the dm02 in the EU soon. I would also love a smaller display and running it without speed sensor

 

[raylo32]

If you have a standard 68mm axle on your TSDZ2 I don't believe you'll have a problem with it breaking... unless you are catching air and landing with your weight on the pedals. As for reviews on the ToSeven DM02... if you can't buy them anywhere, how do they get installed and reviewed? I am still very confused about that.

I would also like to pay $400 for a more reliable tsdz2

I love the way my tsdz2 runs now after tweaking with OSF and changing some parts. The only big downsides for me now are:
- ground clearance
- axle might break

I have kind of learned to live with ground clearance being bad. But axle weakness limits what I am comfortable doing on the bike, and this weakness should be corrected on dm02 according to olekz on discord.

For this and general improved reliability I would happily pay $400. Getting the photon to sweden is more like $1200, a big gamble when I cant fix it if it breaks.

Tsdz2 is so cheap I can have a spare to use while the first one is broken..

Hopefully we get some positive reviews and somewhere to buy the dm02 in the EU soon. I would also love a smaller display and running it without speed sensor

 

[Slowchris11]

@Joakim for yout Tsongshen:
You can fix the brocken axle problem with a 3€ ball bearing and a little Locktite. Just push it in and use Locktite on the outside to keep it there. One of the easy fixes.

 

[Slowchris11]

PSWpower did nothing wrong as "Alex" wrote in the British forum:

"Not exactly true. They did source them from us but it wasn't intentional. It happened due to a miscommunication in the company.
Anyway yes we are looking to partner up with companies for offering warranty and servicing.
So if anyone is from a retailer feel free to contact me
Kind regards
Alex"

Explain that without sounding ridiculous. So they gave merchandise to a dealer who did what? They sold them.
Maybe PSW sold them too cheap, seems to be the only way for such a problem.

At least is PSWpower in the market for a while and has a good reputation, international warehouse connections and supplies anything you need for your Bafang or Tsongshen. So they know the game, even as you can not compare them to a customer caring US company.
Customer care is not the strong side of our friends from Eastern Empire.
PSW should be a good address to sell such kit's and get into the market, but this may collide with Toseven's unrealistic high price policy, not wanting to compete with other brands. Which is just as unrelistic as customer unfriendly... if you don't have a premium product, you can not charge premium prices. I see the value, if software bugs are fixed, on parr with a Bafang.
Please, no one should forget, once the software works, these motors can be used. Only then we will see other, mechanical, thermal or whatever releyability problems of the new, untested motor. Toseven is really not BOSCH, Shimano, Yamaha or Sachs!

If you want to know how a 2023 construction of an e-bike motor looks like, maybe this is the way to go: PINION MGU E1.12
Interested in a 9-12 gear integrated motor, use Google translate Pinion MGU E1.12: Die revolutionäre Motor-Getriebe-Einheit im Test

 

[Elinx]

....
Explain that without sounding ridiculous. So they gave merchandise to a dealer who did what? They sold them.
....
At least is PSWpower in the market for a while and has a good reputation, .....
.... Toseven is really not ...... Sachs!
....PINION MGU E1.12
.....

I can't explain. Only Toseven can.
As said, I can imagine that Toseven made some mistakes and maybe they were dissapointed with PSWPower behaviour.

I'm too still satisfied with PSWPower, so no offense from me to them.
But it is to Toseven how they want to introduce their products on the market.
I can imagine too, if these products will be too expensive, difficult to buy or unreliable, this isn't a key for succes.
But I refuse to speculate what happens in the future, without more information from independent sources.

Sachs? You know that the Tsdz2 is the same as SFM DU250? (SFM= "Sachs Fahrzeug und Motorentechnik")

The Pinion is a really interesting development, but I think this will be an expensive motor not made for DIY ebike.

 

[Slowchris11]

You are absolutely right.
Sure these new developments will not be for DIYS.
I just wanted to point out how a professional, state of the art development looks like today. Compare that to a Toseven, which is a "new" development. Excuse me I'm not impressed at all.
Maybe all the skilled Chinese developers are bussy building a copy of a 1960th US product they urgently need to send soldiers to the moon.

Yes SACHS has comitted quite some sin's, even as these where of much better grade than the usual DIYS stuff, as they lasted very well. There is a lot of stuff they buy, made to their specs and only print their name on.
Today they do quite different e-bike stuff they developed in house.

The problem with these modern high end e-bike motors is, you can not copy them and make a profit. Anything is just made to last for the projected load, if you make it cheaper, with lower grade material or higher tollerances, it will not last a day. So no one can build a Bosch motor cheaper than Bosch.

PS I buy from PSWpower. No problems so far.

 

[Matze_Senpai]

i will be waiting for toseven release and check the prices and avialability, but for now i wanna share some negative aspects from my opinion where i would say they missed (or failed?) :

-they still use square taper axle (outdated in 2023)
-no bluetooth connectivity (should be standard in 2023)
-displays look old fashioned and outdated
-changing parameters feels like a 1990 computer BIOS
-their controllers dont seem to be evolved(30a on dm01 like bbshd , 18a Controller like tsdz2)
-outer shell of both motors look cheap and old
-they didnt look into a little weight saving on dm01, its still super heavy like the bbshd

those are the downsides for me that ive observed until now. dont get me wrong im still considering the dm01 for my fatbike, i just wish they wouldve cared to make these motors a little bit more modern.

 

[Elinx]

I'm glad that the are still BB developments too like from Bafang, Tongsheng, CYC and Toseven and the former Lingbei.
OK, they are not state of the art and have their own imperfections, but (mostly) reasonable priced and usable for DIY.

That is why i stay positive about Toseven, until the contrary indicates otherwise as with Lingbei was the case.
Also I hope that PSWPower will sell the finished, working and good reviewed product of Toseven too.
I don't want to be dependent of a small local webshop only.
There are some that calculates €500 for a Tsdz2 only and €1000 for a kit.
That is double the price of PSWPower, only to get some EU guarantee.
It is easier to buy two

 

[raylo32]

This is the thing... with some of these DIY mfgs trying to be more "premium" with prices that reflect that, the products and support really need to be better. For instance, if I buy a TSDZ2 and move it off-warranty to OSF then fry a controller, I just go buy a new one for $35 and it doesn't bother me a bit. But if I buy a CYC Photon for $950 and then have a similar problem I am not happy... because it broke in the first place on such a "premium" motor, and then more unhappy because I can't go get a new controller and just fix it. I need to deal with the entire dealer and warranty process, which, to say the least, is not very mature. See also the Photon thread. IOW, premium is great if really buys you premium reliability and service. But what if it doesn't??

I'm glad that the are still BB developments too like from Bafang, Tongsheng, CYC and Toseven and the former Lingbei.
OK, they are not state of the art and have their own imperfections, but (mostly) reasonable priced and usable for DIY.

 

[Slowchris11]

In China, such a bike is a commuter vehicle, for us only a hobby or a religion for a handfull of fanatics. I don't think our market is of interest for a Chinese company with a competitive product.
Maybe, if they don't have enough capital and can not sell it on the domestic market because of quality problems, getting rid of a bad batch in export seems a straw to hold on. Exporting B and C quality to keep a good reputation domestically is not new. China did not invent this...
We in DIYS only get the leftover from the Chinese market, generating some exceptional profits for someone not too lazy to deal with the complicated long noses. Like PSWpower or Yose. If we get too complicated, they may just vanish over night.

A simple, good looking mountain bike with disk brakes can be bought for 50$ in China. At Wall Mart you get an e-Bike for 400$. Taxed and with service. That might give you an idea how much profit you can make on a small Toseven motor for more than 400$. Even as this is not enough for them, as it seems to me.

 

[pxl666]

well . is single ppl can do amazing manufacture in garage using simple tools and company isn't capable of deliver a product that is not state of the art and merely a development of other product...that reflects bad on the company . if they try to go on public forum and excuse themselves instead of fixing bad batch...sweet jesus... this looks incredibly fishy

 

[Joakim]

If you have a standard 68mm axle on your TSDZ2 I don't believe you'll have a problem with it breaking... unless you are catching air and landing with your weight on the pedals. As for reviews on the ToSeven DM02... if you can't buy them anywhere, how do they get installed and reviewed? I am still very confused about that.

For sure I want to do jumps and stuff, the axle needs to be unbreakable for me to be able to use the motor for the full spectrum of riding. So right now I am avoiding hard landings and stuff like that

 

[juanjo]

CYC is rubbish, I have already broken two engines in less than a year, and a controller, previously I had the much cheaper GNG and they have lasted me for years.

 

[Joakim]

@Joakim for yout Tsongshen:
You can fix the brocken axle problem with a 3€ ball bearing and a little Locktite. Just push it in and use Locktite on the outside to keep it there. One of the easy fixes.

I dont see how that can give any guarantees on axle not breaking? Would be great if it did. Have you done it yourself and used the bike for hard landings and stuff?

 

[Slowchris11]

There are no guarantees in your life if you use Chinese products. You are old enough to know

So, no, but it is a common fix to prevent the typical premature wear of the motor not made for heavy use.
You suspend the axle at a point near the left pedal and reduce the lever that bends the whole thing down.
The low quality steel does not get better of course, but by bending it less and reducing stress to the bearings connected, it will last much longer.
At just a few Euro's I don't see why you should not do such a logical improvement

If you want to look for a local supplier:
Rillenkugellager 6902 / 61902 2RS 15x28x7 mm (€1.39 a piece @ Dünnringlager 6902-2RS | Jetzt erhältlich!, 1,39 €)

 

[raylo32]

Yikes... No way I'd be trying that with any TSDZ2... extra bearings or not... nor on any other retrofit e-bike. Maybe on a factory emtb, but those are $$$.

For sure I want to do jumps and stuff, the axle needs to be unbreakable for me to be able to use the motor for the full spectrum of riding. So right now I am avoiding hard landings and stuff like that