Baserunner z9 long throttle delay from stop.(Solved)

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Jul 8, 2023
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Pennsylvania
So I previously posted on here with issues now mostly worked out due to using a real phaserunner suite on a laptop rather than the android app. Now the bike is running well for the most part except when I'm at a dead stop sitting on the bike and try to throttle away I get nothing for a few seconds of WOT. If I'm moving even just 2mph the throttle is basically instant. If I take the wheel off the ground also it's instant. However with a load applied at full stop the start time is ridiculously long to get moving and quite frankly dangerous. If anyone were to know of any settings to change that would help that would be great. Thank you in advance.
Parts list.
Grin Cycle analyst wp with switch
Grin Baserunner z9
Shengyi sx2 motor from grin
 
There's a couple threads on this already actually. People say it has to do with the sensored start and sensorless fallback option and the delay built into that.
 
Ahh okay I will be changing that and checking thank you. It must be the way I type things when searching lol I can never find what I'm looking for.
 
I'm at a dead stop sitting on the bike and try to throttle away I get nothing for a few seconds of WOT. If I'm moving even just 2mph the throttle is basically instant. If I take the wheel off the ground also it's instant. However with a load applied at full stop the start time is ridiculously long to get moving and quite frankly dangerous. If anyone were to know of any settings to change that would help that would be great.

When watching the diag screen of the CA (one left button push from main), does the throttle voltage take a long time to rise when acceleration is taking too long, or does it rise instantly like in the other cases?

If it rises instantly, then it's not the CA causing the problem.

If it rises slowly, then the problem is whichever limiting process in the CA has it's flag letter capitalized on the lower left of this screen.


In the former case, it means there is a limiting process going on elsewhere in the system. Some possibilities include:

--the battery is sagging in voltage so much that the power available to the motor under that condition set is too low to do the job (under lesser loads the voltage sag is less so it has enough power to do those jobs)

--the controller is ramping up current based on throttle input, and in this situation the current is needed right now, while in other situations the current is enough even at start of input to do the work required

--the controller is simply limiting current (battery or phase) completely, so that there is never enough to do the startup job, but under lesser load conditions there is.

--the motor simply isn't capable of the torque required for the conditions given, with the available phase current from the controller


You can monitor with the CA to see what the current is during the startup that takes too long, vs that in other situations. If you see the current "brickwall", so it just rises to some point and holds there, then something is limiting this. If the CA's A or W flags are not capitalized, the CA isn't doing it.

You can monitor the voltage with the CA to see if voltage drop (sag) during the startup that takes too long is severe, which essentially limits the wattage because W = V x A; even if A is sufficient a loss of V from a poorly-qualified battery or high-resistance connection between battery and controller will prevent sufficient W from being available.

Every motor has a certain amount of torque it can create given a certain amount of phase current. If the ebikes.ca motor simulator lists your motor then you can directly simulate your conditions and system and see what that torque is, and determine how long it would take to accelerate a given setup in your riding conditions.
 
Yeah it's not the cycle analyst at least I don't think. There are no flags being shown on the diagnostic screen and the voltage of the throttle does rise right away with no delay. I did notice however that there is zero amps when trying to throttle from a stop. There are no limits being hit or capitalized and the throttle ramps right up but the amps stay at 0. Im thinking it's something with the controller or motor but I just tried changing it to sensorless vs sensor vs sensor start sensorless run and they all do it. However the sensorless seems like it could be worked out because it has predictable timed starting from a stop although it's rough. How it is right now though it's not consistent but always there when stopped. If I stop and open the throttle sometimes it will take a few seconds and other times more than 7 or 8 then it just randomly takes off. Just to clarify the accelerations isn't taking too long, there is no acceleration. It just sits there like it's thinking then decides okay I'm ready let's go and takes off after me holding the throttle for over 5 seconds. When run in the suite though all the halls seem to be fine so idk.
 
Yeah it's not the cycle analyst at least I don't think. There are no flags being shown on the diagnostic screen and the voltage of the throttle does rise right away with no delay. I did notice however that there is zero amps when trying to throttle from a stop. There are no limits being hit or capitalized and the throttle ramps right up but the amps stay at 0.

That means that the controller is not drawing any current, so it isn't trying to do anything or drive the motor.

So...there is something in the controller that is not attempting to drive the motor instantly, it is probably (very slowly) ramping up motor output power regardless of control inputs. This means you would see the same problem even if you completely disconnect the CA and wire a throttle directly to it.

So for better-matching help attraction to this thread, I recommend you edit the first post's title to match the actual problem, so that people that don't know the CA but might know your controller would stop by (when they won't do so now because they think you have a CA problem and aren't even reading your thread). ;)



I don't know what options your setup program has for current or power ramping, but I'd start there.

If that doesn't change anything, it could be one of the feedback loops (P, I, D, etc) is set to a very long time.

Before changing anything, be sure to write down all your settings, or make screenshots, etc., (in case some of them are interdependent, and changing one changes others without you knowing about it), so you can put them back if the changes you make don't fix it, or if they make it worse, or cause some other problem.
 
Yeah it is not the CA. Bypass mode did nothing.

I noticed last night when in the phaserunner suite that if I hold the wheel even just slightly and apply throttle the motor gives a negative rpm before kicking in and spinning correctly. I disconnected the sx2 motor and connected my other motor and set the correct parameters in the suite for the motor and even in the CA. Same thing.

I've explained all of this and sent these pics to grin support but they just keep telling me to load default sx1 profile, run autotune and go out to test. I was also told to lower current regulator bandwidth which was already at 0 and to increase ppl damping and ppl feedback?( I think)

This helped but I still can't throttle from a stop. Motor still runs rough and cuts out occasionally but not as frequently. I'm going to further reduce gains to w and amps and lower ramp rate and see if that helps.
I was told by support to put my speed pole to 0 (it's 6) and run autotune. What is that going to fix.

I was told there aren't magical settings to put in and get perfect operation. I was given tips for sensorless start parameters when I'm in hall start sensorless run. It's a brand new motor with under 100miles and the halls all toggle fine.

I just want to throttle from a stop when I twist the throttle and the motor and controller to run how they were advertised, to be plug and play. Not pulsate, cut out and run rough

The one running "normal" is if I don't put any resistance on the wheel.

I've explained to them that this is my only source of transportation and I need a functional bike to get to work and my doctor's. Still waiting to hear back.
 

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I feel your pain I bought a GMAC RTR key and they could never get it working right, motor cogging, shuttering, when you put and resistance on the wheel.. Did you ever get it sorted out?
 
(SOLUTION)

I did with my case. I had to turn off the speed limiting in cycle analyst as well as do a new auto tune. I was having a bug when I put the correct vehicle parameters in(wheel size and speed magnet) the auto tune would spin full speed rather than half speed like it's intended. I never realized until much later on. So in the controller it doesn't need any vehicle info, it's only used if using 3rd party controller. The cycle analyst takes care of that. So one day I did auto tune but put the speed pulse from 1 to 0 and this gave me a proper half speed auto tune. When it was tuning at full speed the offset and timing was off so that's why it would run but would hiccup and sputter.

Even with the base settings for the sx2 motor loaded and I had that problem. They had the speed pole already loaded at 6 in vehicle parameters. In my head that's the correct number and that's how it came tuned, but through trial and error and lots of research I figured it out.

So it's worth a shot if you are having problems to run auto tune and make sure to put speed pole to 0 and make sure wheel spins at half speed.
 
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If you see in my post above I mentioned that support actually told me to put speed pole to 0 and run auto tune and I was like "what's that gonna fix" lol
The bike is what...
 
If you see in my post above I mentioned that support actually told me to put speed pole to 0 and run auto tune and I was like "what's that gonna fix" lol
The bike is what...

You have the Aventon right?

How is the Baserunner working for you now?

Are you saying the CA resolved the issue not using the preset motor parameters in the PR software?

I ask all of this because I'm doing nothing similar to you I'm taking an existing ebike and basically just using the frame and doing a build, I have a 52 volt battery that I'm going to use Brand New MXUS motor from a ride1up limited which is not in the PR software suite

As I mentioned I bought a RTR GMAC kit and they had to send out new hardware twice, screen share with me through Zoom then watch the bike go through its shuttering and stuttering on at least eight different occasions and they couldn't figure it out. So I'm a bit leery on getting too far into Grin but if you got it sorted out I might have to give it another shot!
 
Yeah aventon level. It's working flawlessly honestly.
Grin Tech has amazing stuff and amazing people working there but like any place, things can happen. Wether its a defective product or what have you. If they were on a screen share call and walked you through the procedure and they couldn't figure it out then I'm stumped. At that point I'd request a return number if you can't get it working.

And yeah in short my problem was from putting the wheel size and wheel speed pulse in the controller software when auto tuning. For some reason this was messing it up, but the cycle analyst has inputs for speed pulse and wheel size so I still have speed readout. It took me long to figure out because it wasn't so bad that it wasn't rideable, but was bad enough to not forget about and piss me off. Take off from stop was terrible and even when already under power and moving I'd get brief hiccups where the power would cutout. My theory is the timing was losing sync due to the faulty auto tune.

If they walked through the setup though and can't get it running, if bet you have a defective piece of hardware or something similar. When you say they sent new hardware, what exactly did they send out? Could be an issue with the controller but I'm not sure. Did you ever get it to successfully auto tune?

Grin is a great company with even better hardware. The hardware is good quality too the only thing is when it comes to the more diy stuff like us, they aren't much help which is understandable as they would be swamped helping everyone with issues. However since you have the RTR kit and that's the issue it needs to be fixed. Just stay on top of them but they will make it right no doubt.
 
Yeah aventon level. It's working flawlessly honestly.
Grin Tech has amazing stuff and amazing people working there but like any place, things can happen. Wether its a defective product or what have you. If they were on a screen share call and walked you through the procedure and they couldn't figure it out then I'm stumped. At that point I'd request a return number if you can't get it working.

And yeah in short my problem was from putting the wheel size and wheel speed pulse in the controller software when auto tuning. For some reason this was messing it up, but the cycle analyst has inputs for speed pulse and wheel size so I still have speed readout. It took me long to figure out because it wasn't so bad that it wasn't rideable, but was bad enough to not forget about and piss me off. Take off from stop was terrible and even when already under power and moving I'd get brief hiccups where the power would cutout. My theory is the timing was losing sync due to the faulty auto tune.

If they walked through the setup though and can't get it running, if bet you have a defective piece of hardware or something similar. When you say they sent new hardware, what exactly did they send out? Could be an issue with the controller but I'm not sure. Did you ever get it to successfully auto tune?

Grin is a great company with even better hardware. The hardware is good quality too the only thing is when it comes to the more diy stuff like us, they aren't much help which is understandable as they would be swamped helping everyone with issues. However since you have the RTR kit and that's the issue it needs to be fixed. Just stay on top of them but they will make it right no doubt.
I returned the RTR kit, don't get me wrong I'm not down on grin they actually stepped up and did the right thing, I sent the stuff back at this point I'm looking at doing another build just wanted to find someone who's actually used their stuff and got it to work. I'm a bit confused with the base runner z9 is the max current 30 amp I've heard people say 25, I see 55 is the phase amp I'm trying to understand what the max current amp is to make a comparison to other controllers.
 
It's max values are 55a phase and 55a battery for the smaller z9 baserunner. The l10 is 80a phase current and 80a battery. I think they put those mid range values as a more realistic approach due to thermal throttling but I'm not sure. If you look it up on the site is says max 30a battery but in the manual it specifies 55a max with a * and then it mentions that after a few minutes peak current will reduce from the controller thermal throttling to stay in safe zone. How hard you can run it depends on cooling and how mine is set up it stays cool even peaking at 1500-2000w.

Ive always had phase amps(low speed torque) at 55a and battery(mid range acceleration)I've had up to about 45a max. I've installed a temp sensor in my hub motor for thermal roll back but it does heat up fast lol. I had the controller inside the down tube when I first got it but it got so hot without airflow being that it's so small pushing that much power so I had to move it.

The way I have it installed is in-between the frame and scrape guard. The guard has holes in it for airflow and it never even gets warm. As of right now I have it maxed out at 2000w though normally I have it in medium mode for about 1500w. If it was a direct drive (gearless) I'd try the full 55a battery as I'm running two packs in parallel so they can handle it. However being I'm using a 500w geared hub I don't want to ruin the nylon gears.

I mean I am pushing it a lot lol but they can handle high torque as long as the initial takeoff is gentle. So slow take offs and slow throttle ramp up for the gears and it's been alright for over 1k miles. I've also ran the smaller shengyi sx2 like this for over 1k miles. If you look up 2000w aventon level on Reddit you'll find me 🙂
 
Also with the smaller 9 pin connector most motors that have that connector won't handle that much current. Most are 250w to 500w motors. However you could always use a motor adapter for something larger like a 1000w bafang g60 but then it's better to get the l10 for higher phase amps.

If I had to say the absolute biggest and most major reason why I love the baserunner/phaserunner line of controllers is how configurable they are and the field weakening capabilities as well. My motor would normally max out at 28 to 29mph on a full charge on flat ground. Now I'm doing 33 to 34 mph even at mid charge with about 10 amps of FW. It makes the motor run less efficient but increases potential max rpm and power and but playing with phase current timing to reduce magnet field strength, simulating a higher kv(speed) motor.

That and the demux chip in the z9. The z9 because it has 9 pins versus 10 like in the l10 it can share speed and temp on one wire and will split them automatically. This is how I Installed a temp sensor on my aventon level motor to protect it by putting it in parallel with the speed hall. Any other controller or display and I'd be having to run a cable out the axle which isn't fun. Again if you search aventon level temp sensor install you'll find it.

P.s. the sx2 motor is great and runs fine but the stock level motor was slightly larger so I wanted to see how it would handle the higher power levels I'm running being the sx2 is a 350w nominal and the level is 500w. The end result was that the larger level motor seems to handle more torque and power but it's not by much if any at all. Nothing you can really notice. I think this comes from the efficiency difference. The sx2 has 72 pole pairs and is very efficient with 87% peaks while the level is only 42pp and not as efficient so they very well might be close to equal. Obviously the larger one has more mass to collect heat but at these power levels it gets up so fast you can't tell a difference. The level motor however is loud. It sounds angry lol. You can hear it in the 2000w video. It has straight cut gears so that's why, meanwhile the sx2 is almost quiet due to helical gears. I like the whine though 😈
 
It's max values are 55a phase and 55a battery for the smaller z9 baserunner. The l10 is 80a phase current and 80a battery. I think they put those mid range values as a more realistic approach due to thermal throttling but I'm not sure. If you look it up on the site is says max 30a battery but in the manual it specifies 55a max with a * and then it mentions that after a few minutes peak current will reduce from the controller thermal throttling to stay in safe zone. How hard you can run it depends on cooling and how mine is set up it stays cool even peaking at 1500-2000w.

Ive always had phase amps(low speed torque) at 55a and battery(mid range acceleration)I've had up to about 45a max. I've installed a temp sensor in my hub motor for thermal roll back but it does heat up fast lol. I had the controller inside the down tube when I first got it but it got so hot without airflow being that it's so small pushing that much power so I had to move it.

The way I have it installed is in-between the frame and scrape guard. The guard has holes in it for airflow and it never even gets warm. As of right now I have it maxed out at 2000w though normally I have it in medium mode for about 1500w. If it was a direct drive (gearless) I'd try the full 55a battery as I'm running two packs in parallel so they can handle it. However being I'm using a 500w geared hub I don't want to ruin the nylon gears.

I mean I am pushing it a lot lol but they can handle high torque as long as the initial takeoff is gentle. So slow take offs and slow throttle ramp up for the gears and it's been alright for over 1k miles. I've also ran the smaller shengyi sx2 like this for over 1k miles. If you look up 2000w aventon level on Reddit you'll find me 🙂
You don't understand how helpful you've been, I've been vacillating on whether or not to get the z9 base runner wondering if it was going to put out enough power, the current controller is 22 amps so if my net gain is only 8 amps I was having a hard time justifying going this route even if I'm upgrading from 48 to 52 volts. Mxus gdr 19 c which is supposed to be 95 newton meters of torque and a really strong accelerating motor, and I'm toy with the idea of getting up e Rider torque sensor, even though the GMAC had the 24 pole Pas and it was extremely responsive. Can you share what temperature sensor you got and how you have it routed, is it running from the motor in parallel with the motor wire up to the controller or to the cycle analyst
 
The easiest way to see would be to look on Reddit but I actually full disassembled the hub motor to get to the circuit board inside. The board has 6 connections. Hall 1, hall 2, hall 3, power, ground and lastly the speed hall.
So normal hall 1 2 and 3 are just for tracking motor position. (Another benefit of the baserunner is it can be tuned sensor less so if you blow a hall sensor you can still run the motors)
Power is for power
Ground is for ground
Lastly the speed hall is for tracking the magnet in the faceplate. The actual connection on the board for the speed hall is 3 points. Power, ground and the signal connection to the sensor.
What I did was get a NTC 10k B3435 thermistor to match the cycle analyst preset then installed it.
One end goes to the sensor point on the speed hall and the other end goes to the main ground connection in the board. So essentially you are tying the temp sensor into the speed hall. I basically just looked at how the sx2 was setup, did some research and then copied it. Give me a sec I'll attach a pic...
 
Going from 22 to 30 is still a big bump in wattage. Even more so if going from 48 to 52v.
48 x 22 =1056w
52 x 30= 1560w
Big difference. Higher voltage will also give you slightly higher speed so with a little field weakening you should be cruising.
 
No you need to zoom in on the small cluster on the board and you'll see the sensor goes between ground and sensor connection on speed hall. It's the small white wire. Where they come into the board is underneath but where you solder is right in top.
 
Those larger wires go to the windings in the motor to run it. Smaller ones underneath go to the board but you don't need to mess with the wiring just simply solder and add on the temp sensor in line with the speed hall.
The temp data gets to the CA via the BR. The BR has a demux chip to split the two signals apart and send them separately, then the CA just displays them so the BR is doing all the work.
 
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