BB drive gearing

Joined
Sep 19, 2007
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323
Location
Victoria , Australia
I'm just wondering if anyone has any ideas on how to optimise the BB gearing on a bike.
I'm currently using a United/Oatley type motor. It has a 16t freewheel, to a 42t chainwheel.
The main chainwheel is a 40t, driving a 11-32 p speed rear cluster.
the reason I am making this post, is that from about the middle of the rear cluster and up, it feels like the moor is loaded up too much for the gear.
I'm feeling that the motor could probably be geared down a bit, so that the motor is actually spinning faster for the same pedal cadence.
Actual motor to crank ratio is 2.625:1. If I could fit a 14t freewheel, then the ratio would be 3:1.
Has anyone had any experience in optimising the motor to crank ratios?
Thanks,
Rob
 
I've not tried a bottom bracket drive myself yet, but I would guess you'd get best efficiency by gearing the motor so that it's no load speed corresponds to a pedal cadence that is a little higher than the fastest you can manage.

So if your motor's no load speed is 320 rpm, and your fastest cadence is 110 rpm, a 14t freewheel with a 42 chainwheel would give you a ratio of close to 3:1, which should be just about ideal, I think ...
 
A pedal cadence of 110 is too high.

There have been many bicycle studies that have shown that for most ordinary cyclists (other than professionals) the ideal cadence is about 70-90 rpm and no more. Seems that the higher cadences work for people who are in excellent shape, but for those that are not it actually lowers the efficiency.

So figure not what your no load speed is, but what your peak efficiency motor speed is and gear your bike so that:

:arrow: Peak efficiency speed = 90 rpm (equivalent pedal speed through gearing)

...and this way when you FALL OFF the pace the motor helps you out because your motor actually gets stronger as the rpms drop to the second type of peak which is your peak power. You then will get into an equilibrium and bounce between peak power from the motor verses peak efficiency of the motor. The harder you pedal the more efficient the bike becomes. As you get more and more tired the motor picks up the slack. :)

However, a pedal cadence of 110 does make some sense as an approximation because it's well beyond the normal human pedal speed and if you compare it to the no load speed which you never want to be in they are both "way up there" at about the same extremes. The most accurate way would be to know your peak effieciency rpm (this is something that is often published) and base your gearing on that...
 
safe said:
A pedal cadence of 110 is too high.

There have been many bicycle studies that have shown that for most ordinary cyclists (other than professionals) the ideal cadence is about 70-90 rpm and no more. Seems that the higher cadences work for people who are in excellent shape, but for those that are not it actually lowers the efficiency.


News to me. Do you have a reference for that, safe?
 
Miles said:
News to me. Do you have a reference for that, safe?

I did my research on that months ago and remember the articles ideas, but don't have the link. You could look it up I'm sure you will find similiar conclusions. Ordinary bicyclists don't usually pedal faster than about 90 rpm "at best". Lance Armstrong was a "freak of nature" with his 100 rpm cadence and it won him a lot of races... but for us regular folks figure 70 rpms is our "comfort zone" and 80-90 rpms is really fast.

The best thing would be to know the peak efficiency rpm and set that to about 90 pedal rpms... then when you get tired the motor can "catch" you falling off the pace.

You could still use the 110 cadence as a no load comparision figure, but it's a less accurate way of doing things. (peak efficiency rpms is better to focus on)
 
safe said:
Miles said:
News to me. Do you have a reference for that, safe?

I did my research on that months ago and remember the articles ideas, but don't have the link. You could look it up I'm sure you will find similiar conclusions. Ordinary bicyclists don't usually pedal faster than about 90 rpm "at best". Lance Armstrong was a "freak of nature" with his 100 rpm cadence and it won him a lot of races... but for us regular folks figure 70 rpms is our "comfort zone" and 80-90 rpms is really fast.

If you're saying that it needs a certain amount of adaptation to be comfortable using higher cadences, I'd agree. I don't think you need to be a professional athlete to benefit from it, though....
 
http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showexcerpt.cfm?excerpt_id=3131

In general, during laboratory tests performed by noncyclists at constant power outputs (usually = 200 W), pedaling at low rates (~ 50 to 70 rpm) resulted in lower oxygen uptake (V·O2) than pedaling at higher rates (> 90 rpm). In any case, such a generalization is of little practical value. First, one questions the benefit of optimizing pedaling cadence in subjects whose power output rarely surpasses 200 W, those who cycle for fitness or recreation. Second, elite cyclists are the ones interested in optimizing cadence and making it more economical/efficient, and they are able to generate much higher power outputs during long periods. The average power output of Bjarne Riijs during the 1997 Amstel Gold Race, a World Cup classic lasting over seven hours, was close to 300 W (data from http://www.srm.de). During the most important stages of professional road cycling races, riders are often required to generate power outputs of over 400 W (Lucia, Hoyos, and Chicharro 2001a), not to mention the one-hour record in a velodrome (Bassett et al. 1999).

Bassett and colleagues (1999) estimated that the mean power outputs required to break the one-hour world records in a velodrome during the last years (53.0 to 56.4 km) ranged between 427 and 460 W. The average power output of Miguel Indurain during his 1994 one-hour record averaged 510 W (Padilla et al. 2000). Probably most pro riders are so economically below 200 W, that pedaling cadence hardly changes anything. Below 200 W, Lance Armstrong’s human engine is probably similar to that of the last rider in the overall classification of the Tour de France in recent years, and pedaling cadence does not have a significant effect on either one. The picture is likely to be different above 400 W, but there are scarce data in the literature related to the oxygen cost of generating power outputs over 400 W for 20 or more minutes (Lucia, Hoyos, and Chicharro 2000), and no data exist on how pedaling cadence could alter this variable. This is the type of information needed in cycling science.

We should therefore be cautious when applying the findings of previous research concerning cadence optimization to highly trained cyclists. The most economical of cadences tends to increase with absolute power output, that is, with watts (Boning, Gonen, and Maassen 1984; Coast and Welch 1985; Hagberg et al. 1981; Seabury, Adams, and Ramey, 1977). For instance, Coast and Welch (1985) showed that the cadence eliciting the lowest V·O2 at 100 and 330 W was 50 and 80 rpm, respectively. Thus, absolute power output is a key factor of cadence optimization and precludes any simple answer to the problem. On the other hand, trained cyclists are more effective than recreational riders at directing pedal forces perpendicular to the crank arm (Faria 1992). Such an ability carries a biomechanical advantage and probably allows trained riders to pedal at high cadences with no major loss of efficiency.

Instead of speaking of an inverse relationship between cadence and economy/efficiency, maybe it would be more correct to speak of a U relationship during constant-load exercise. There may be an optimum pedaling cadence below and above which oxygen cost increases significantly.

Yet, can we assign a value to this theoretical optimum cadence at the bottom of the U? Probably not, given the great variability among cadence studies involving trained cyclists yielding the lowest V·O2, from ~ 60 to ~ 90 rpm (Chavarren and Calbet 1999; Coast and Welch 1985; Hagberg et al. 1981).

It is generally accepted that the theoretical optimal cadence in terms of oxygen cost for most humans is generally lower than that preferred by trained cyclists (> 90 rpm). This generalization requires some specification. First, the gap between the most economical or efficient and preferred cadence is usually narrower in trained cyclists. For instance, Hagberg and colleagues (1981) found both to be close to 90 rpm in trained cyclists. Second, few data in the scientific literature concern the preferred cadence of trained cyclists during actual cycling, although it is consistently assumed to be higher than 90 rpm. Indeed, the latter is only really true for one-hour records in the velodrome. Besides, fixed gears are used in velodrome events. Fixed gears are designed so the rider is constantly forced to move the pedals and might elicit different physiological responses than normal, free gears.

Only one report addressed the preferred pedaling cadence of professional cyclists during three-week races (Lucia, Hoyos, and Chicharro 2001b). Among other findings, the mean preferred cadence of the subjects was shown to range from 70 to 90 rpm, and high variability was shown between subjects and the type of terrain (flat versus uphill). High interindividual variability has also been reported for the preferred cadence of trained cyclists (72 to 102 rpm) during laboratory testing (Hagberg et al. 1981).

Finally, irrespective of the cadence adopted, the oxygen cost of pedaling is largely determined by the percentage distribution of efficient type I fibers in the main muscles involved in cycling—the knee extensor muscles, particularly the vastus lateralis—at least in trained cyclists (Coyle et al. 1991, 1992). We could speculate that, in subjects with a particularly high percentage distribution of type I fibers in the knee extensor muscles, the choice of theoretically inefficient/uneconomical cadences (too low or too high) would have a lower impact on the metabolic cost of cycling than would that choice in cyclists with a smaller proportion of this fiber type.
 
http://www.iowaahperd.org/journal/j96s_cycling.html

Hagberg, Mullin, Giese & Spitznagel (1981) have noted that the most efficient pedaling frequency was 91 rpm in a group of trained road cyclists. Extensive training had ingrained this as the preferred pedal frequency. In the current study there was very little difference in pedaling efficiency across the four rpm values, with a range of only 18.3% to 18.9%. This was in contrast to the findings of Gaesser and Brooks (1975) who noted a decline in efficiency with increases in pedal frequency in "well-conditioned" men. Peak efficiency in the current study was noted at the 76-rpm level. Although well-conditioned, none of the subjects had trained for road racing and thus may more accurately represented the average fitness enthusiast.

From the current results, it appears that maximum efficiency during cycling prior to increasing cardiac stress may be realized between 70 and 80 rpm. Given the option, most exercisers subjectively chose a pedal rate of about 70 rpm as most comfortable. This may be because of maximum efficiency at this level or because this is the point perceived as most comfortable prior to an increase in cardiac stress. Further investigations using a perceived exertion scale might lend support to this speculation.
 
Safe, the whole point of suggesting 110 rpm (and notice I said "if ... your fastest cadence is 110 rpm"), was that this is well above the optimum or comfortable cadence. The point is to make sure that most of the time your comfortable pedalling cadence matches the most efficient rpm of the motor, which is usually around half no load speed.
 
:arrow: Let me restate also that setting the no load speed equal to 110 pedal rpms might turn out "okay"... but it's a less accurate way of figuring your gearing. The goal is to match your peak efficiency motor speed to your peak efficiency pedal speed... that was my core point on all of this... that the no load speed is a less precise metric to use.

Find your published peak efficiency speed and make it equal to 90 rpms which would be a human "peak pedal rate". That way as the human side drops off the motor side picks up the slack. This will tend to "train" the rider to stay at a rate of about 76 rpm which is the ideal rpm for a cyclist that is ordinary.
 
Malcolm said:
Safe, the whole point of suggesting 110 rpm (and notice I said "if ... your fastest cadence is 110 rpm"), was that this is well above the optimum or comfortable cadence. The point is to make sure that most of the time your comfortable pedalling cadence matches the most efficient rpm of the motor, which is usually around half no load speed.

Yeah, I've been trying to answer that and along the way it seems to have been missed. There's a gap between the no load speed and the peak efficiency speed. Setting the gearing based on the no load is less precise. It might achieve an acceptable result, but I'm just saying that the peak efficiency number is normally published and a better metric to use. No one ever pedals to 110 rpm on a sustained basis... so it's sort of an imaginary number that you're using.... the real number is 76 rpms for peak efficiency and about 90 rpms for a peak pedal rate... use the real stuff...
 
A Different Question

The larger issue is one of "peak efficiency alignment".

Where should the peak pedal efficiency be aligned with the motor?

You could:

1. Set the peak pedal efficiency equal to the peak motor power.

(then you are gearing to get maximum overall power output)

2. Set the peak pedal efficiency equal to the peak motor efficiency.

(then when you get tired the motor picks up the slack)

3. Set the peak pedal efficiency to a point BELOW the peak motor power.

(that would add extra low end torque so that you could literally "force" your way into the higher rpms where the motors peak power would kick in... the motor then "pulls you up" into full power but forcing you to initiate the "surge")

:?: What type of powerband do you want?


I've actually been playing around with the idea of option #3 which forces the rider to initiate action. The scenario would work like this... you enter into a turn using the brakes and decelerating. You set the gearing on the exit of your turn to a high enough level that you are essentially slightly bogged down on exit. You pedal like crazy for a few seconds and in this sprint surge you push the rpms high enough that the motor really kicks in and then (on my "Road Racer" type machine) I sit down and use the motor from then on because the speeds are already fast enough that I'm better off behind my fairing than pedaling. I go through a couple more gears and then enter another turn and do it all over again.

So for this "sprint" style racing that I'm thinking about you would shift the torque added by the pedals down really low... it's the opposite of what most people would do I suspect. (option #3 makes you work HARDER rather than EASIER)
 
safe said:
No one ever pedals to 110 rpm on a sustained basis...

Apparently not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_(cycling)
Cyclists typically have a preferred cadence at which they feel most comfortable, and on bicycles with many gears it is possible to stick to a favourite cadence at a wide range of speeds. Recreational and utility cyclists typically cycle around 60–80 rpm; racing cyclists around 80–120 rpm and sprinters up to 170 rpm for short bursts. Cycling great Lance Armstrong is known for his high cadence of 120 rpm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong
Armstrong has a high lactate threshold and can maintain a higher cadence (often 120 rpm) in a lower gear than his competitors, most noticeably in the time trials.
 
Armstrong nearly died of cancer and is truly a "freak of nature". Most ordinary cyclists (as has been studied and proven) hit their peak efficiency at 76 rpm.

76 rpm is the "reality" for ordinary people... that should be the "magic number" that we use...

120 rpm is for a sprint... (or a freak of nature)

76 rpm is for riding for an hour or more...
 
safe said:
Armstrong nearly died of cancer and is truly a "freak of nature". Most ordinary cyclists (as has been studied and proven) hit their peak efficiency at 76 rpm.

76 rpm is the "reality" for ordinary people... that should be the "magic number" that we use...

120 rpm is for a sprint... (or a freak of nature)

76 rpm is for riding for an hour or more...

Then you agree your statement below was 100% wrong -- good.

safe said:
No one ever pedals to 110 rpm on a sustained basis...
 
Safe, accept the fact you are wrong on this one, go visit the http://www.bentrideronline.com forums and have a browse.
Personally my cadence is 105 cold 120 warm cruise and 180 for a prolonged sprint, I have short cranks but they only affect the sprint cadence and then only by about 10 rpm. I admit that I spin faster then most but there are others that spin the same, a 100+ cruise cadence is fairly common.

Now back to Robs question if you are running 24v the motor is rated at from memory 320 rpm so just work out the ratio to get to your comfortable cadence ie. 4 to1 would give 80 rpm as the load lightens it will rise a bit but is probaly a good starting point, I would prehaps try to shoot for a touch lower than normal cadence going of my previous tests with the same motor.
A quick calculation.......
The 14 tooth to a 52 will still be a bit high at 86 and a bit but it's got to be better than the gearing you are trying to use now.
 
Thanks for the references, safe.

I use a cadence of circa 100 rpm on 150mm length cranks. Crank length, of course, is another variable in the equation....

Safe, pedalling seems to be, for you, just a way to avoid the need to license your "road racer", in other states. Or, do you have plans for a genuine hybrid?
 
:arrow: We do agree that studies show that EFFICIENCY does not increase with higher pedal cadence right?

Increasing your cadence above a certain point is actually going to LOWER your efficiency...

People do lot's of crazy things and high pedal cadence is one thing that people often get obsessed about, but the reality is that for the average human the "best efficiency" of your body happens at 76 rpms. (it's just the way it is)

Lance Armstrong has been studied so much and his weird bodies abilities seem to defy everything we know about how things work. Unless you actually have had a cancer like he once had and was transformed by it the extra high cadence is actually not a smart thing to be focused on. (he was accused of doping many times because his numbers "didn't make sense" compared to even other pros)

I'm sticking to my guns on this one... stay with 76 rpms... that's the place you want to gear your bike for...
 
safe said:
:arrow: We do agree that studies show that EFFICIENCY does not increase with higher pedal cadence right?

Increasing your cadence above a certain point is actually going to LOWER your efficiency...

People do lot's of crazy things and high pedal cadence is one thing that people often get obsessed about, but the reality is that for the average human the "best efficiency" of your body happens at 76 rpms. (it's just the way it is)

I'm sticking to my guns on this one... stay with 76 rpms... that's the place you want to gear your bike for...

No! It depends on the person. It depends on the power level. It depends on the crank length. Lance Armstrong is not particularly relevant to this - although it's true that higher outputs benefit the most from higher cadences.
 
Miles said:
Safe, pedalling seems to be, for you, just a way to avoid the need to license your "road racer", in other states. Or, do you have plans for a genuine hybrid?

Not dealing with pedals was easier. I knew from the very beginning that gears were going to be the way to go and being able to avoid the extra complexity of a bottom bracket made things easier and still does on this next #002 project. By project #003 I'll be ready to tied everything together and add the pedals.

After a lot of development time I've arrived at the "magic geometry" in my opinion and an answer to the problem of battery location. If you use a 52" wheelbase and locate your cranks towards the rear of the frame then there's plenty of clearance for a big battery in front of the pedals. That's my ultimate design and I'll get there eventually.

Each step builds towards the next and I refine things as I go... for example... the fairings I build for #002 will fit on #003. (at least that's the plan)
 
Malcolm said:
and 180 for a prolonged sprint

Wow, I'd no idea people could pedal that fast. Your shoes must be smokin' Geebee :shock:

This is just silly.

People do not pedal efficiently above 80 rpm in most cases. Unless you are a trained bike racer you need to plan on being "ordinary". If you are a trained bike racer then you should give advice that is correct for people who are not. It's simply incorrect to advise an ordinary bicycle rider to gear his bike for a cadence that is very high. The proven peak efficiency cadence for the average human is 76 rpm. I can see giving advice for as high as 80 rpm and maybe even cut some slack to suggest 85 rpm, but when you start to suggest 90 rpm or above to ordinary people you are in effect trying to sabotage their bike and their riding.

:arrow: Why give bad advice like that?

Think about it... 120 rpm is TWO REVOLUTIONS PER SECOND!!!
 
I should imagine that efficiency drops off at higher cadences, for those not used to them, because of muscle coordination - so, it's just a question of practise....

Certainly, for outputs below 100 Watts the cadence isn't that important.
 
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