Cowardlyducks - E-BikeE builds

[Cowardlyduck]

Nice blue color. 8)

Thanks!

So it looks like EM3ev have taken the DD hubby I was planning to use off the site.

I really want to use a DD Hubby as I like the lower noise levels and really want Regen capability.

Does anyone have any alternative suggestions for a small DD Hub I could use.

Cheers

 

[Allex]

Pauls DD is a clone of the popular 9Continent motor.
Search for it or look at here for axample, 9C clone as well(I Think).
http://www.uumotor.com/shop/electric-bike-kit/electric-bike-kit-48v-1000w-front-wheel?zenid=7pq9m2gpfnvo84m8d9k5se5su0

 

[Allex]

Just got email from Paul. They will be getting crystalytes on the homepage soon.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Pauls DD is a clone of the popular 9Continent motor.
Search for it or look at here for axample, 9C clone as well(I Think).
http://www.uumotor.com/shop/electric-bike-kit/electric-bike-kit-48v-1000w-front-wheel?zenid=7pq9m2gpfnvo84m8d9k5se5su0

Just got email from Paul. They will be getting crystalytes on the homepage soon.

Thanks Allex. Much appreciated.
After trying to research which DD Hub motor I could use most of the day, (including the 9C you linked), I had thought I settled on either a Golden Motor, or 2807 9C.

Unfortunately, I can't find anywhere to get one of these laced into a 20" rear wheel for a decent price shipped to Australia.

I'm now considering just getting the cheap $95 HBS36R Rear motor from the link below.
http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotorIndex.html

The only problem then would be getting it laced to a 20" rim...I would been keen to try it myself though!

What Crystalyte option is Paul planning on stocking? If it's the HS35xx I'm not too interested as they are a bit too heavy for this kind of build IMO. Also if it's the Crystalyte G I'm not a fan of the spoke, and axle design.

I would still be interested in any other smaller DD Hub options if there are any I'm missing.

One other alternative, that would completely defeat the stealthiness of the build, is the Magic Pie 3 with the 20" solid rim.

I like the idea of no more spokes and the option of upping the power significantly later on if I want, but not sure if the look would totally ruin the bike.

Cheers

 

[Allex]

Dunno about the models. But one thing is sure, do not buy magic pie. The sound from it is awful(like sitting at the dentist) and pretty loud.

 

[Hyena]

do not buy magic pie. The sound from it is awful(like sitting at the dentist)

A combination of sucking and screaming ?

Crystalyte have a new motor they've just released. It looks like a rehash of the old 40x series with different side covers to me but may be different.

 

[cwah]

I wonder how the magic pie would sound with sine wave controller?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

do not buy magic pie. The sound from it is awful(like sitting at the dentist)

A combination of sucking and screaming ?

Crystalyte have a new motor they've just released. It looks like a rehash of the old 40x series with different side covers to me but may be different.

Ok cool, Magic Pie is out then as I definitely want silence.
This new Crystalyte sounds interesting...any more details? Link?

Cheers

 

[TheBeastie]

There were a bunch of Magic Pie motored bikes at the EV show in Swinburne Uni last year, I had a go on a few and I thought they were pretty quiet.. Is it just me?

 

[Allex]

Well not MP3, it has e sharp, metallic sound
[youtube]dLGY2o3ZHZU[/youtube]

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for the reference. It's not only the noise, but the massive size of the MP3 that puts me off. It also looks ugly IMO.
If I didn't already have a little 6Fet Infineon, I would get a sine wave controller for this build to make it completely silent. But as it is, with lower power, it shouldn't be too loud with a normal DD Hubby.

Apart from this potential new Crystalyte, the Golden motor is still looking like my best option...and cheapest. I might just buy one and a rim and try and lace it up myself.

I'm also playing around with different battery configs to see what I could manage to both fit in the frame and still give me good speed. I've got about 600mm length wise to play with up to the rear stay mounts which I can place parallel strings of 18650's side by side.

I can fit 2 rows of 16S at ~585mm long but not sure if 16S is easy enough to work with...I've only worked with setups that are a multiple of 6 so far, so 12S or 18S. 16S just seems awkward!
I know 18650's are 18mm wide, but I'm basing my measurements off 18.2mm per cell to add a bit of buffer for padding and cells not being perfect. Is that reasonable, or should I add more to my measurements?

What does everyone think?

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Apologies for the lack of updates in this thread.

Progress has been slow, but progressing none-the-less. I think I may have made a foolish mistake however.

I seem to be stuck lacing my Golden Motor to a 20" rim with a single cross spoke pattern. My spokes are only 91mm long, and the extreme angle where they meet the spoke nipple seems to be making it almost impossible to thread them on.
So far I've attempted filing the eyelets at an angle, slightly bending the spokes (they are 14g), and tightening up all adjacent spokes, with the last one being the most successful, but ultimately only it only helped a little. I've managed to strip the first 2-3mm of thread on a bunch of spokes and and have very sore fingers from bending the spokes. These black Sapim Strong spokes were not cheap either.

Does anyone have any tips on how to lace such an extreme angled pattern?

I did do a bunch of research before settling on this spoke pattern, and came to the conclusion that while it is difficult...it should not be impossible. Now I do feel like it might be impossible.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Ok, so I've pretty much given up on lacing this wheel with a single cross spoke pattern now. It just isn't possible, and I risk seriously damaging spokes, nipples and my rim if I attempt to continue.

All is not lost however. I should be able to still use these spokes to do a radial pattern if I can just find a thread tap to extend the threads and cut the spokes shorter I should be good.

What is the best way to cut spokes?
I'm tossing up between a hack saw and some bolt cutters, both of which would leave a less than pretty end. I would then just have to file smooth the ends.

Cheers

 

[Tench]

Woa!! Spoke threads are not cut with a die, they are rolled into the spoke, you cannot extend them by cutting!

What I suggest you do is use the simulator to try and determine the correct hole spacing to do a radial paired hole pattern with the spoke length you have, if they are not long enough to do 1 X then this would be a solution with the spokes you have. Then drill 9 new holes in each flanged to create paired holes.

 

[voicecoils]

Ok, so I've pretty much given up on lacing this wheel with a single cross spoke pattern now. It just isn't possible, and I risk seriously damaging spokes, nipples and my rim if I attempt to continue.

All is not lost however. I should be able to still use these spokes to do a radial pattern if I can just find a thread tap to extend the threads and cut the spokes shorter I should be good.

What is the best way to cut spokes?
I'm tossing up between a hack saw and some bolt cutters, both of which would leave a less than pretty end. I would then just have to file smooth the ends.

Cheers

Do you have a photo of it partially laced 1 cross so we can see the spoke angles? Maybe there's options you haven't considered.

There's no easy way to cut and re-roll threads without a dedicated spoke machine. The threads are cold forged, not cut. That's why the spoke diameter is thicker at the thread than along the length. If you used a tap and die set to cut threads instead, the spoke nipple would not have enough material to grip on to.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks guy's. Yup, just realised that part about rolling the threads when I started searching for the size die I would need. Duh!

I might just see if a LBS will cut and re-roll the spokes for me.

The angle is 62.2 degrees according to the spoke calculator. http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html

I basically followed a standard single cross lacing pattern. I actually referenced one of the wheels built by Stealth for my Fighter to get started.

Cheers

 

[briangv99]

hey CD, I've got a Hozan spoke tool that can roll threads on your spokes, it is harder work than the spoke machines at the bike shops, but it does the job given patience and time. Quickest option is to drop the spokes off at TLC bikes in Phillip and they roll and cut your spokes to length.

If you stick with single cross you'll need to file out all 36 spokes holes in the rim with a small round file then most likely lace all the spokes on the inside off the motor flanges

 

[Hyena]

How much shorter do you need the spokes to be with radial lacing ? I'm guessing enough that you can lop off the whole threaded section and re-roll a new thread on 'fresh' spoke ?
Unless your LBS has a spoke cutter (and experienced with it) I say stop buggering around and send them to glow worm

 

[Cowardlyduck]

How much shorter do you need the spokes to be with radial lacing ? I'm guessing enough that you can lop off the whole threaded section and re-roll a new thread on 'fresh' spoke ?
Unless your LBS has a spoke cutter (and experienced with it) I say stop buggering around and send them to glow worm

Thanks for the input Jay.
The new spoke length will be 75mm...from 91mm, so yeah the whole threaded section can be lopped off.

Brian has lent me his Horzan spoke threading machine, so I might give it a go myself...however...I just spoke to the owner of a LBS.
He mentioned he thought radial lacing was a really bad idea and would likely end in wheel failure. I had read that this could be the case, but had also read several accounts on ES of others with small wheels doing it successfully. So now I'm not sure what to do any more.

I was planning on using the existing spoke thread to extend down far enough and then cut, but after attempting this on one spoke, I now can't thread the nipple on as far as before. I probably need to adjust the tool to get this right.
Is rethreading a blank spoke better than extending existing threads, then cutting?

Should I continue to persevere with a single cross pattern, which would likely mean filing out every eyelet at an angle, or should I switch to radial spoke pattern and cut/rethread all my spokes?

What is the real risk of a wheel failure with a radial wheel using only 75mm spokes? I would think low, but I've never done anything like this before. If I file out every eyelet and still can't make it work single cross, will the eyelets still function with radial at that stage?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm relatively clueless on all this. I probably need to do more research.

Cheers

 

[Hyena]

Brian has lent me his Horzan spoke threading machine, so I might give it a go myself...

Have you got some old spokes you can practise on first ?
If you've spent the money on these sapims you dont want to botch the first few while learning how to use it properly.

he thought radial lacing was a really bad idea and would likely end in wheel failure. I had read that this could be the case, but had also read several accounts on ES of others with small wheels doing it successfully. So now I'm not sure what to do any more.

For a commuter not being bashed around offroad and at low power I think it'll be fine.

Is rethreading a blank spoke better than extending existing threads, then cutting?

I'll let Abraham or someone else more experienced take this one but I imagine trying roll a new thread exactly even with existing thread would be pretty tough.

 

[briangv99]

I agree Hyena, radial lacing on a lowish power commuter bike is fine, grin only sell their 20" rim hubs as radial lace.

I wouldn't pursue single cross on your eyeleted rim, would be fine on an un-eyeleted rim though with a drill to adjust the angle slightly.

The Hozan is painfully slow to use but will get the job down once you tighten down the rollers and run up and down the spokes half a dozen times or so. For 36 spokes I'd just take it them to the LBS (I've had good luck with TLC in Philip)

 

[Samd]

Loving the different nature of that frame.

I *think* the trustfire cells are b-grade from the factory and can be a bit patchy?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Have you got some old spokes you can practise on first ?

I've got one spare which I used to try extending the threads on.

For a commuter not being bashed around offroad and at low power I think it'll be fine.

I agree Hyena, radial lacing on a lowish power commuter bike is fine, grin only sell their 20" rim hubs as radial lace.
I wouldn't pursue single cross on your eyeleted rim, would be fine on an un-eyeleted rim though with a drill to adjust the angle slightly.

Thanks guy's. This is the same conclusion I had come to...LBS guy just got me a bit worried with his dramatic interpretation of radial lacing equalling epic wheel collapse. Mind you this same guy tried to tell me the reason his shop only stock Trek is because they like to focus on only knowing one brand they trust well...don't think I can't see the exclusive rights deal behind that decision. :lol:

The Hozan is painfully slow to use but will get the job down once you tighten down the rollers and run up and down the spokes half a dozen times or so. For 36 spokes I'd just take it them to the LBS (I've had good luck with TLC in Philip)

I might still do this...seems like it might be the easier option.

Loving the different nature of that frame.

Thanks That's why I grabbed it when I had the chance. Apart from the Golden Motor, if I can get the 18650 cells mounted inside the frame, I should be able to get away with a completely invisible build.

I *think* the trustfire cells are b-grade from the factory and can be a bit patchy?

Yup, I should have annotated that shot...for demonstration purposes only. Those cells are shocking fakes, and only used for flashlights.

Cheers

 

[Hyena]

LBS guy just got me a bit worried with his dramatic interpretation of radial lacing equalling epic wheel collapse.

Send him this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elMwIeBZi7k

That motor is radially laced, to a motorcycle rim, and running 9kw
Granted they came loose after a few weeks of offroading but it was a cheap and nasty lace job to start with and even so it's not just going to suddenly collapse.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Update on this build.

After trying to get my spokes cut and re-threaded at 3 different bike shops and getting 3 different stories about how/why they can no longer do it, and some outrageous quotes, I decided to tackle this myself with the Horzan tool Brian was so kind to lend me. That and it gave me an excuse to go buy some bolt cutters to 'cut' the spokes.

So far 3 spokes cut and re-threaded successfully...34 still to go...if I still go with full radial.

I've been considering attempting a half radial build like this.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spoke_patterns Towards the bottom of the link.
It's unclear to me from the link above if doing half radial wheel build without any dishing would still be bad. Anyone care to comment?

Cheers