Cyclone 1200w vs ebay Hub Motors

[el_walto]

emissions-free also sells really good lifep04 packs. Much better discharge rate than ping. Depends what you are going for though.

And 40km/h is not slow for an ebike. I try to keep my bike at or under this speed most of the time for safty and legal reasons.

 

[Diamondback]

i know you have now settled for the hub motors because of the noise of the cyclones.

in my noobishness, i was loading the cyclone too heavily on the climb up the hill also.
this contributed to the noise it makes.

thought i would share this short clip of my first ebike that was cyclone powered so you can hear the noise it makes.
by comparison, my current Geared hub ezee motor is almost silent. not as quiet as the DD hubs, but compared to
the cyclone, it's almost silent.

[youtube]QJ-nqUN_BXk[/youtube]

the ezee im running now can (with pedal assist) do 40km/h and it's great at climbing the hills.
it's rated at 550W at 48V, but because of the 60V (FOC) 48v ping, im getting about 1000W.

Jason.

 

[Wizzbit]

I have cyclone 960, GM 901, 902 and Magic Pie 3
I recommend the Magic Pie 3 hands down. $400, climbs good, very efficient, doesn't shut off after 2 min of non use (like cyclone) and doesn't care about water and snow.
I have a ping 36v20ah and it goes 50km road with hills, 60km road no hills, 15km+ steep climbing trail.
GM batteries are cheaper and have a case, but the small batteries have huge, heavy cases so ping is better for small batteries.

60kmh is great, is this without pedaling? I ask because there is 2 things stopping me from going with the mp3,
1 is that I was told it is a torque-y motor and wont go much above 25mph with a 48v lifepo4,
2 is that I emailed bms and they said its not disk brake compatible, which is a bummer.


Ive been speaking to a couple members who have been very helpful in my narrowing down of options,
its come to:

1. Papamotor whole kit which comes with lifepo4 48v 15ah (you can ask them for more ah but the motor wont safely take more than 48v),

Price: £660 approx

Pro's:

- Site says top speed 34mph with over 80kg guy
- All in one kit with ping batt, one postage cost.

Con's:

- Can not upgrade above 48v if wanted in future.
- Screw type hub (old skool)

2. Magic pie kit, and ping battery separate lifepo4 48v 15ah (how about a 60v 10 ah?)

Price: £650 Approx

Pro's:

- Good price.
- Can use 60v batt (I think)

Cons:

- Torque-y motor which mean more V. for mph.
- Not disk brake compatible.
- Internal controller.

3. Hs3540 from Clyte, lifepo4 48v 15ah, controller and other parts from Lyen.

Price: approx £870.

Pro's:

- Probably best quality parts.
- Most easily upgradable, versatile lyen controller
- Probably the fastest.

Cons:

- 3 separate shipments from different people.
- Most expensive
- Possibly harder to install because of the different origin of parts? (may be wrong about this)

All the prices are considering ping battery's, if I were to build my own from cells, knock about £100 off from each total price.

i know you have now settled for the hub motors because of the noise of the cyclones.

in my noobishness, i was loading the cyclone too heavily on the climb up the hill also.
this contributed to the noise it makes.

thought i would share this short clip of my first ebike that was cyclone powered so you can hear the noise it makes.
by comparison, my current Geared hub ezee motor is almost silent. not as quiet as the DD hubs, but compared to
the cyclone, it's almost silent.

the ezee im running now can (with pedal assist) do 40km/h and it's great at climbing the hills.
it's rated at 550W at 48V, but because of the 60V (FOC) 48v ping, im getting about 1000W.

Jason.

All I can say is Im glad I signed up here coz I was right on the verge of ordering that kit before, I wouldn't have been happy with that noise, not where I live lol.

 

[jasonf150]

I can't chime in on much here, but I've been running the hs3540 with a 36v nimh and it literally makes ZERO noise. I got mine in a kit from ebikes.ca. It's definitely disc compatible as I run my stock disc parts with it.

 

[chilledoutuk]

I got my Nine continent kit from the Italian guy at a really good price including delivery.

http://www.wheelkits.it//index.php

I got a 6x10 with a 27amp controller and it averages about 15-16mph on the flats on 36v

It cost me 248 +26 =272 euros delivered about £220

he also does kits with a 45 amp 48/72v controller for 298 plus delivery which is 26 euros.

The delivery was very quick UPS if I recall correctly.

My 9c 6x10 kit has been great I've had it since December and have done lots of miles on it. It hauls my ass up hills unassisted no problem doesn't even get warm.

Personally I looked at hubs from cystalyte europe myself and every time I keep thinking two things

A. I don't like the way there axle is cut in the side for the wires
B. For that price I could get a complete kit including an nice infineon controller.

There are some UK options for batteries also.

 

[Wizzbit]

I can't chime in on much here, but I've been running the hs3540 with a 36v nimh and it literally makes ZERO noise. I got mine in a kit from ebikes.ca. It's definitely disc compatible as I run my stock disc parts with it.

Good to hear.

I got my Nine continent kit from the Italian guy at a really good price including delivery.

http://www.wheelkits.it//index.php

I got a 6x10 with a 27amp controller and it averages about 15-16mph on the flats on 36v

It cost me 248 +26 =272 euros delivered about £220

he also does kits with a 45 amp 48/72v controller for 298 plus delivery which is 26 euros.

The delivery was very quick UPS if I recall correctly.

My 9c 6x10 kit has been great I've had it since December and have done lots of miles on it. It hauls my ass up hills unassisted no problem doesn't even get warm.

Personally I looked at hubs from cystalyte europe myself and every time I keep thinking two things

A. I don't like the way there axle is cut in the side for the wires
B. For that price I could get a complete kit including an nice infineon controller.

There are some UK options for batteries also.

Sounds good, so those kits have everything except battery?
I wonder if hooked up to 48v 15ah lifepo4 will be able to get 30mph+ or would this require more V.
What are the U.k batt options? Ive been looking at eclipse for cells to build my own.
Cheers.

 

[chilledoutuk]

Those 9c kits have everything you need except the battery and torque arms.

The fastest one he sells which is the 9x7 would do about 26.25mph on the flat with a 48v battery pack.

Alternatively you could go with 72v on a 6x10 which should give you about 30mph

With regards to the uk battery options other than the headway cells.


One would be 5ah Nimh Sub C 12v packs these cost 37.88 pounds and can handle discharge currents upto 50a
a 36v pack of these weighs about 2.2kg

http://www.component-shop.co.uk/html/large_packs.html

Pros - A Safe chemistry that is not as likely to burst into flames when used with appropriate charger
- Very Robust cells that can take a lot of abuse.
cons - not as energy dense as lipo (heavier)
- self discharges quicker than lithium tech batterys



Another option would be a 10s or two 5s Lithium polymer battery packs from a quality brand such as volton/ennerland maybe gens ace

A 5.5ah Volton 5s battery pack costs £59.50 each and you would need two of them for about 36v use they can handle discharge currents upto 100amps.
a 37v 10s pack of these would weigh about 1.3kg

http://www.electricwingman.com/volton-20c-5500mah-5s-18,5v-li-po-battery.aspx

Pros - Very High power and energy to weight ratio compared to other chemistry's
- Best quality lipo brand after kokam which means cells will stay in balance and last many more cycles than hobby king packs.

Cons - Not as safe as other chemistry's can catch fire if not charged properly a good charger is very important.
- More sensitive to physical damage due to soft cell packaging a hard case is recommended.

The last option i would mention requires more skill and that is building a pack from 18650 cells from laptop battery packs or tool packs.
If you scout around you can find some branded laptop packs with some really nice cells in them for example i found some sanyo 2400mah cells in 9 cell packs that were being sold for £15 delivered each. That works out £1.66 each.

I built a 9.2ah 4p10s pack that can handle 20amp continuous discharge current for £66.4

 

[Wizzbit]

72v seems a lot to get 30mph, I was expecting 35+ from 72v...
Why not 72v on a 9x7?
If I bought 4 Volton 5s that would be about 72v though, and £240 is not bad at all compared to ping...
Hmm so are they just plug n play or do they need special setting up/building?
Also is this just 5.5ah? wont that be low distance/torque?

 

[Wizzbit]

On ebike simulator I put in ninecont 2805, 72v 5ah battery, 40a controller and squeezed 38mph...
Im not sure if 2805 is the same hub used in the italian 9x7 kits, but if it is Im sold, I wont get bored of those speeds.
Now one thing is it compatible with disk brake?

 

[Wizzbit]

Good news the guy emailed me back they are disk compatible, just need to decide on battery so I can order the right controller with the kit, I think 4 of the 5.5ah Volton 5s should do (72v), just gonna do bit more research on lipo's then I think I'm ready,
Cheers folks.

 

[tony67]

2 quick points. There is disk compatible and standard 6 hole disk compatible. Be sure it is the latter, the former is some weird eastern standard that is a SOB to make work by all accounts. The specs are well documented on here.

5.5 ah is minuscule. Consider the bottom 20% and the top 5% unusable that will leave you approx 300w/h which on 72 v won't go that far. I'd advise a 15s2p setup 6 bricks for 54v 11ah bout 450w/h but at a lower voltage meaning less aero losses due to reaching higher efficiency at slower speed. Should still be capable of 45-50 kph on the 9x7.

 

[Wizzbit]

2 quick points. There is disk compatible and standard 6 hole disk compatible. Be sure it is the latter, the former is some weird eastern standard that is a SOB to make work by all accounts. The specs are well documented on here.

5.5 ah is minuscule. Consider the bottom 20% and the top 5% unusable that will leave you approx 300w/h which on 72 v won't go that far. I'd advise a 15s2p setup 6 bricks for 54v 11ah bout 450w/h but at a lower voltage meaning less aero losses due to reaching higher efficiency at slower speed. Should still be capable of 45-50 kph on the 9x7.

Hi tony, will defo ask for the standard 6 hole disk attachment, (edit) are the 15s2p a123 lifepo4?

 

[dogman dan]

2807/9x7 generally just barely gets into the 40 mph club when run at 72v 40 amps. That's 3000w, and it will definitely melt the motor if you run too long. A short ride, usually less than 10 miles is more or less safe. A 72v 10 ah battery will typically run out of power before the motor melts.

Run 72v 20 amps, and you won't see much more than 35 mph, but can go a lot further. But you will still need to carry a huge battery to go far at that speed. Anything above 25 mph and range just melts away like butter on a fry pan.

I forgot to ask you what range you needed in the PM. A 48v 15 ah ping, riding wide open throttle at 27 mph, should get you just about 20 miles max. Slow to 20 mph, and the same battery goes almost 30 miles.

9c 2807 and a 48v 15 ah ping makes a very nice bike for the street, if you carry the battery in the frame triangle. That's the setup I have on my commuter, that I've ridden about 8000 miles. (second battery though, the first one went 7000 miles)

 

[Wizzbit]

I guess Id like to go 20miles @ 20mph, or 15mph, is that reasonable from lipo?
I dont mind a little less if it gets me into the 30mph club.
Would 72v 10ah do that?
I would actually be doing low speeds most of the time, but want to know that I can open it up an feel the speed if needed.
The thing is ping are pricey compared to lipo...I see lipo as more V per £...
They seem like the cheapest, lightest route to the 30mph club.
But if a 60v 10 ah ping would do the business, I could roll with that.
I look at 30mph as decent speed to put a smile on my face, 40mph+ I see as a bit crazy, I dont need that sort of speed,
but 30+ will confirm to my brain that it was money well spent.

 

[Wizzbit]

Been looking on hobbyking found these:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__23546__ZIPPY_Flightmax_8400mAh_3S2P_30C_LiFePo4_Pack_AUS_Warehouse_.html

8400mah

 

[tony67]

Hi tony, will defo ask for the standard 6 hole disk attachment, (edit) are the 15s2p a123 lifepo4?

The 15s2p I refer to is the arrangement of the lipo you are considering getting. 15 cells in series(15s) means 3 bricks of 5 cells each connected in series giving (15x3.7v=55.5v) the 2p means another of the 15 cell sets wired in paralell (pos+ to pos+, neg- to neg-)

This would take 6 of the voltron packs your looking at.

If you decide to go lipo be sure and factor in a decent charger and power supply and learn how to handle this chemistry safely because it does not tolerate abuse/misuse.

tony

 

[Wizzbit]

Once again Ive proved Im a newb lol.

6 of these:
http://www.electricwingman.com/volton-20c-5500mah-5s-18,5v-li-po-battery.aspx

1 of these (built in power supply):
http://www.modelsport.co.uk/core-rc-uac50-charger-12v-110-240v-6a/rc-car-products/365880

Looking at just over £400, similar price to 40v 15ah or 60v 10ah ping...

With the 15s2p setup would that be 55v 11ah?

6 of these would be cheaper:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__14638__Turnigy_5000mAh_5S_25C_Lipo_Pack_AUS_Warehouse_.html

Can they be assembled as 15s2p?

I understand not too charge above 4.20v and don't let them run below 2.70v.

 

[chilledoutuk]

those packs are in the australian warehouse if your in the uk you can only order from the international warehouse or the european one in germany.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=13380

shipping form there is like 20 euros to the uk upto 5kg.

 

[Wizzbit]

Thanks Chilled,

6 of these badboys would get 66v 10ah:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10376__Turnigy_5000mAh_6S_30C_Lipo_Pack_DE_Warehouse_.html

That comes to approx £300 before shipping, add charger and shipping will be around £370

8 of these would get 72v 10ah
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__13953__ZIPPY_Flightmax_5000mAh_5S1P_25C_DE_Warehouse_.html

Similar price approx £370 with post and charger.

Then ping

48V 15AH V2.5 LiFePO4
(5ah charger)

£430

60V 10AH V2.5 LiFePO4
(4.5A Charger +$22.00)

£400

So actually lipo is only a little cheaper than ping, at least when stacked up with charger.
Decisions decisions...

 

[chilledoutuk]

Honestly I would go with the ping it will be more reliable and a lot easier to look after in the long run.

The way ping has his batterys setup with the bms you just get back from a ride plug in and leave it.

You would spend a lot of time messing about with charging the individual packs if you went with a lipo and the learning curve is supper steep and you don't have any room for error with this being your only battery pack.

My recommendation for someone new coming into ebikes is to buy something that they can rely on from the get go and then later on when you have a backup play around with more complicated battery solutions.

With my 36v combines 11ah i get about 25 miles range on my 9c 6x10.

Another caveat with a ping pack would be that you wouldn't have to worry about LVC as the pack would have that built into itself.

Dogman has said before that the 15ah 48v ping is about the best size as its got good range but still fits on the bike reasonably easily.

 

[Wizzbit]

Honestly I would go with the ping it will be more reliable and a lot easier to look after in the long run.

The way ping has his batterys setup with the bms you just get back from a ride plug in and leave it.

You would spend a lot of time messing about with charging the individual packs if you went with a lipo and the learning curve is supper steep and you don't have any room for error with this being your only battery pack.

My recommendation for someone new coming into ebikes is to buy something that they can rely on from the get go and then later on when you have a backup play around with more complicated battery solutions.

With my 36v combines 11ah i get about 25 miles range on my 9c 6x10.

Another caveat with a ping pack would be that you wouldn't have to worry about LVC as the pack would have that built into itself.

Dogman has said before that the 15ah 48v ping is about the best size as its got good range but still fits on the bike reasonably easily.

Yeah I think your right, dogman recommended ping aswell, I got caught in the "lure of lipo", thinking I would get super speeds for cheap, but I no jack about electrics and battery's.
Yeah 48v 15ah seems pretty balanced.

 

[dogman dan]

Lots of folks are running lipo. 12s packs are common, but at 44v, you get about 25mph from a 9x7 9c motor. 18s would get you 35 mph, but for 18s you'd have to upgrade the controller to a 72v one.

27mph with a 48v 15 ah ping is still going to make you smile, and you'll have a lot of range if you ride 20 mph much. You won't. You'll be cruising 27 mph everywhere within a day or two.

Lipo is NOT cheaper. If you bought the same voltage and ah of lipo, AND a decent charger, AND battery management equipment, AND the wiring and connectors, you will find you just spent about the same as your 48v 15 ah ping. But it's going to last half as long as lifepo4. My first ping died early, at 700 cycles. Lipo is good for about 500.

If you only needed to run 5 miles, then RC lipo could be cheaper, because you could buy a much smaller pack. But if you need range, then you need the 15 ah in any case.

If your bike is intended for cheap practical transportation, go with the ping, which has a very low cost per mile compared to RC lipo. Charging is safe and easy. Plug in, go to bed.

 

[csm]

I have cyclone 960, GM 901, 902 and Magic Pie 3
I recommend the Magic Pie 3 hands down. $400,

What do you know about the differences between the Magic Pie 3 and the Magic Pie 2? This question is also for anyone who has or has had both, or used both. Are the wiring harnesses and/or controllers interchangeable? Is there a section on Endless Sphere that is specifically for Golden Motor or Magic Pie (company or products)?

 

[Wizzbit]

Hey peeps I finally decided on the mac kit 8T with 52v 11.5ah a123 battery, thanks to everyone that helped me out on the forum and pm 8)

 

[tony67]

Best of luck with the build. Keep us posted on your progress and if you need any tips this place is invaluable.