Denver commuter e-bike
- Thread starter Toshi
- Start date
Toshi
10 kW
lazarus2405 said:Be warned, padawan. This is the first step in the path to the dark side...
I do have taller gearing on order, of course, 48x16t as compared to the stock 38x21t (with the 7-speed hub, of course)... Once I'm able to pedal at 25 mph then I will. Well, might.
This actually is a good segue to the topic of pedals. D-man, the ones currently on the bike are indeed comfortable. They look to be Wellgo LU-214 City Pedals, as best as I can tell. Wellgo.co.tw lists them at 110.9 * 94.6 mm, fwiw.
Product page on REI: http://www.rei.com/product/752213?vcat=REI_SSHP_CYCLING_TOC
Google cache of Wellgo's website (LU-214 at bottom): http://tinyurl.com/4jo2e9
Especially when my taller gearing gets in I think I'll switch to the clipless pedals from my road bike. Better efficiency on the upstroke, stiffer shoes, easier to "spin circles" at high cadences. On the other hand, if I can generate enough leg-power with flat pedals then they are very convenient... My only real complaint with them is that my foot's not always in the same position (as opposed to clipless) so sometimes I'm too far back and hit my heel on the pannier.
kbarrett
10 kW
Toshi said:
There is nothing more amusing than watching some lycra roadwarrior's expression as you pass him going up a steep hill with a fairly slow cadence small sprocket ... and cheerily wave at him.
One woman followed me for a good 2 miles ... pushed until she was close enough to see the wires and the lit display on the Cycle Analyst, and after about five minutes trailing me started shouting "I knew it, dammit, I just knew it!".
Link
1 MW
kbarrett said:
That's getting quoted, ROFL!
Toshi
10 kW
Toshi said:
I had a chance to try out this technique today over 12.33 hilly* miles. Via my spreadsheet I used 24.55 Wh/mile. I didn't check the CA before disconnecting the battery to bring it up to charge, but the figures have been within 6% or so, so it's in the ballpark.
On uphills I maintained 18-20 mph, sometimes taking all of my effort in addition to all the motor could put out at its 18 mph power peak. On flat sections with a semi-tuck :x (difficult with wide riser bars!) I was jetting along at anywhere from 23-27 mph. These figures that I've been seeing are roughly on par with those that Bob McKree reported, perhaps a little more efficient. This is not surprising since I'm pedaling basically every start up to ~10 mph so as to avoid the inefficient part of the power curve. (Also, the 1.75" high pressure tires and non-sky high bars relative to the seat help.)
Sweet. I'm entirely satisfied with these speeds. If I were to go faster I wouldn't want a bike as the platform since sitting up in the air seems wrong. What I'd want:
- Enclosed steel dropouts for a Crystalyte 5304, OR a ETEK driving a chain or belt
- Built in and fully enclosed battery storage very centrally on the bike with an on-board charger
- Motorcycle grade suspension -- no Ohlins, just off the shelf Honda trials bike stuff...
- Proper motorcycle style lighting
- Much better aerodynamics! Recumbent? Velomobile? Something different.
- Could be registered as a moped
Basically I'm describing a Jackal done properly. No SLA bulk, better aero, much less ugly, less emphasis on off-road use. The Jackal again, for reference:
(* almost all my routes are hilly as the house I'm renting is basically atop one of them and the hardware store, lately my favorite haunt, is atop another)
Toshi said:
Hi Toshi. Been following your thread eagerly. Thanks for sharing. I'm in Northwest Montana and about to attempt my first ebike build for a daily commute that involves an 8-9% incline for 5 miles (flat otherwise... see photo here http://justev.info/route.jpg ). I've been looking at a very similar setup with a 408 and 48v/10ah/35a/lifepo4. I was hoping you could elaborate a little on what kind of hills you're riding. Are they 8-9%+? I don't mind pedaling and am decent shape, but in the interests of getting to work on time would like a LOT of assistance on the steep part on those lazy days and can't afford to get into the 530x series right now. Thanks for more "hill" information!
Toshi
10 kW
Good luck with your build! These things really are quite fun, once you get them working. I had to dig around a bit to try to figure out how to calculate hill grade using freely available tools.pwbset said:
(The answer is to use http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/ for a short segment you know is steep and of a consistent grade with the Elevation feature turned on, and then crunch the numbers by hand: it tells you the elevations and the distance so it's just arithmetic.)
The steepest grade that I encounter is 11%: 120 ft over just shy of 0.2 mile, with a 0.4 mile descent with another 11% section over just a half mile before then. The 407 struggles with this grade, and it took all my pedaling effort plus its inefficient conversion of 1600W of battery power to heat (with some making it to the ground) to maintain 10 mph. I avoid ascending the longer 11% descent I just mentioned by taking the long way up: a 0.75 mile 4% grade. The 407 absolutely shines here, maintaining 18-20 mph with only minimal pedal effort.
Another hill on this same house-hardware store-house route that I just mapped out is a 6.7% grade. I can maintain 18 mph on it with moderate pedaling -- I'm entirely happy with the 407's performance on this more typical hill.
Toshi
10 kW
Toshi said:
It looks like some fellow Pac NW types have already designed the vehicle I'm looking for (should I want to step up to the next level some day):
From my alternative personal transportation thread on ridemonkey.com:
Toshi on ridemonkey.com said:BugE. http://www.bugev.net/
[youtube]MKoi9aQO6Co[/youtube]
[youtube]Aq8F_FY7sqw[/youtube]
sold as a kit: $3400 for the chassis, suspension, fairing and bodywork, canopy, motor and wheel sprockets, wheels/brakes/tires. $325 for the electrical bits (not electric: wiring harness, brake light, switches, etc.). $1300 for the electric kit: 48V DC drive motor, controller, charger, throttle, power meter, DC-DC converter.
note that a battery is not included, and price your own labor accordingly.
if you're not crafty then HarveyEV sells the BugE complete for $9300 with SLAs, no doubt with a hefty markup.
specs for the kit version:
Advanced DC 140-01-4005 motor (24-48V, 3.8 hp). Alltrax 24-48V 300A controller. 48V battery of your choice, based on your range requirements and an estimated energy use of 50 Wh/mile.
range from 40-120 miles depending on the battery. 45 mph at 48V. run it at 60V (with different components to match and a higher price) and you can get 65 mph.
most everything is built in the pac nw! 50 Wh/mile for this vehicle compares to the 24 Wh/mile i use when running my e-bike flat out and ~13 Wh/mile when using it only for assist on hills.
i actually really like the look of this one. has the attributes that i'd look for in a platform in between a bike and a car (just as the video says): weather and wind protection, 3-wheel stability, aerodynamics, light weight, layout optimized for electric drive rather than the hobbled design of bicycles. has room for 2 bags of groceries.
of course, i don't think it makes any financial sense whatsoever at the assembled prices ($9,300 for SLA! no way). build one yourself, however... <wheels turning in head>
lazarus2405
10 kW
This can all be done on a quality freeride/downhill bike..except the aerodynamics. Failing that, a velo trike would work superbly; a 5303 in a velo would scream, but thn again it needs a very good suspension. Failing that...
What you're describing is an electric motorcycle. Take a 'rolling frame' sportsbike (that is, intact frame, suspension, fairings, everything but the powerplant/drivetrain), add at least an etek, preferably something more powerful as budget permits and about 150lbs of lithium where the engine resided. Faster, safer, more aerodynamic, better handling, and room for two!
Or at least, that's what I hope to do in a few years... after a wedding and after my gal finishes grad school. *sighs wistfully*
Toshi
10 kW
Ah, but I don't consider the motorcycle platform to be ideal, either. I'd much rather be seated in an BugE or Aptera type vehicle than perched on a motorcycle, and Aptera has served to reaffirm the importance of aerodynamics (which even fully faired sportbikes don't truly possess -- they're bricks, relatively speaking)...
Toshi
10 kW
I'm continuing to greatly enjoy this thing. Although my cheap $12 headlight/flasher decided to self-destruct from a bump while at speed, I nevertheless logged 20.71 pleasant miles today. The ultimate destination was a eZee dealer across town 
. Yes, I went there to taunt them.
8)
Stats from today's ride:
20.71 miles at 17.4 mph average (not bad given the stoplights and tooling around trying to find the place!). I'm now at the 90 mile mark overall on my fifth day of having it up and running.
49.0V ending voltage on the pack, with a minimum in the 41 V range seen under heavy load
6.992 Ah
316.24 Wh total
15.3 Wh/mi via the CA!
I am quite pleased with 15.3 Wh/mi given that there were quite a few extended flat sections where I didn't pedal at all and let the motor whir away. I did note that there was a 40.x A peak even though I have the current limit set within the CA at 35A (again, I have a 36-48V 35A controller) so I dialed the CA's current limit to 30A to be on the safe side.
Yesterday I crafted myself a U-lock holder out of four zipties... I'll have to retrieve the dSLR from the girl's place some time soon and give the bike a proper photo shoot.
. Yes, I went there to taunt them.8)
Stats from today's ride:
20.71 miles at 17.4 mph average (not bad given the stoplights and tooling around trying to find the place!). I'm now at the 90 mile mark overall on my fifth day of having it up and running.
49.0V ending voltage on the pack, with a minimum in the 41 V range seen under heavy load
6.992 Ah
316.24 Wh total
15.3 Wh/mi via the CA!
I am quite pleased with 15.3 Wh/mi given that there were quite a few extended flat sections where I didn't pedal at all and let the motor whir away. I did note that there was a 40.x A peak even though I have the current limit set within the CA at 35A (again, I have a 36-48V 35A controller) so I dialed the CA's current limit to 30A to be on the safe side.
Yesterday I crafted myself a U-lock holder out of four zipties...
I'll have to retrieve the dSLR from the girl's place some time soon and give the bike a proper photo shoot.
lazarus2405
10 kW
Was that peak seen on the real-time display, or on the CA's peak amps measurement? The former would mean you were being mean to it, most likely up a hill.
If it was just the max recorded amps by the CA, don't worry about it at all. It can detect very large, very very short spikes, particularly while accelerating (the motor drew that current before the controller's current limit had time to respond by backing off the PWM. A couple of miliseconds of difference.). The CA's current limit will take over a quarter of a second to respond with the throttle override signal. I've seen the CA pick up momentary spikes of 80a on a controller with an actual current limit of 55a. (This also means that you cannot use that peak current measurement to calibrate the CA's shunt to a known current limit, or to measure a controller's current limit.)
Toshi
10 kW
It was on the CA's max amps memory. It's not harmful during that quarter second it takes to kick in?
lazarus2405
10 kW
To everything but the battery, there's no harm at all. For the battery cells itself, no harm at all. The BMS, though, might not like it. Depending on how sensitive it is, it might trip its current limiter. If that happens, I don't know how annoying it is, but Ping packs don't inspire confidence, from the BMS issues I've heard. The flip side, though, is if it was that sensitive you would already have tripped it.
Any idea what caused the power spike? Did you ever give it any throttle (even a little) while stopped? Starting the motor from stall would do it; it's when the motor tries to draw the most current, and thus when it has the most torque (and wheelie ability, and hill climbing ability at awful awful efficiency.
)
Toshi
10 kW
I've given it throttle at stall, but never full throttle! So the controller will be safe with occasional 40A spikes even though it is nominally 36-48V 35A?
My pack is actually not a Ping duct-tape pack, but instead was sourced from ebikes.ca.
My pack is actually not a Ping duct-tape pack, but instead was sourced from ebikes.ca.
Drunkskunk
100 GW
Toshi said:
The short answer is Yes.
Its a Crystalyte controller, you can push it way above the rated limit.
The CA can't react instantly to limit the current, so you'll get those spike. I can't remember if Justin put the info here, or if it's on his website, but you can program the response time in the CA's setup to be faster, but there's a tradeoff with some other things if you speed it up.
lazarus2405
10 kW
Oh, I must have forgotten you got your LiFePO4 from them. So no worries!
Don't worry at all about current spikes, then, unless they get especially high. You'll be fine turning the CA's current limit off, in fact, unless you want to use it to force you to keep the power consumption low.
Even on an x5, at 84v, I liked to give it a 7a or 10a limit and putt around at full throttle, enjoying the scenery and stretching my range...
Don't worry at all about current spikes, then, unless they get especially high. You'll be fine turning the CA's current limit off, in fact, unless you want to use it to force you to keep the power consumption low.
Even on an x5, at 84v, I liked to give it a 7a or 10a limit and putt around at full throttle, enjoying the scenery and stretching my range...
Toshi
10 kW
Sweet. I reset the amp limit to 35A (from 30A), and lowered the LVC to 37V from 40V after reading recumbent's issues with intermittent cutouts with a similar 48V setup. I haven't had any problems, but I haven't been over 7 Ah yet either, even with 20+ mile rides.
I breezed through the 100 mile mark today... 8) I'm trying to sell my car at the moment, and if it sells this bike has been effective enough for my purposes that I might not replace the car at all, instead doing a car sharing program (Zipcar). This isn't something I would have necessarily been able to consider with just my road bike given the hills of Seattle.
Speaking of hills I was tipped off to a site that's superior to Gmaps pedometer for calculating elevation change: http://www.mapmyrun.com/create (click the box next to Display Elevation). Here's a commuting route I did for two weeks on the road bike. Note that the mile markers end after 21 miles -- I wimped out and took the bus for the last two miles up the hill. I did ride the complete route on other days, however. Anyway, here's the elevation profile for a route similar to the "back" portion of this route (the map below was via Gmaps pedometer for the record):
Still to come for my commuter bike:
- center stand to replace the kickstand
- gearing revision so that I can spin along at 25 mph (from 38-21t currently to 48-16t with a correspondingly larger chainring guard)
- photoshoot with good lighting and my dSLR instead of these marginal cellphone shots
I breezed through the 100 mile mark today... 8) I'm trying to sell my car at the moment, and if it sells this bike has been effective enough for my purposes that I might not replace the car at all, instead doing a car sharing program (Zipcar). This isn't something I would have necessarily been able to consider with just my road bike given the hills of Seattle.
Speaking of hills I was tipped off to a site that's superior to Gmaps pedometer for calculating elevation change: http://www.mapmyrun.com/create (click the box next to Display Elevation). Here's a commuting route I did for two weeks on the road bike. Note that the mile markers end after 21 miles -- I wimped out and took the bus for the last two miles up the hill. I did ride the complete route on other days, however. Anyway, here's the elevation profile for a route similar to the "back" portion of this route (the map below was via Gmaps pedometer for the record):
Still to come for my commuter bike:
- center stand to replace the kickstand
- gearing revision so that I can spin along at 25 mph (from 38-21t currently to 48-16t with a correspondingly larger chainring guard)
- photoshoot with good lighting and my dSLR instead of these marginal cellphone shots
Toshi
10 kW
Sweet, I'm famous! 8)Sturdly said:You sure did, moving right along (near25mph by my car speedo pacing) on 11th N.E. by Whole Foods around 10 minutes of 3:00.Toshi said:I breezed through the 100 mile mark today... 8)
Link
1 MW
LOL, you have a stalker !
!
Toshi
10 kW
yesterday and today have been absolutely beautiful here in seattle. it's also "bike to work day", so the burke-gilman multi-use trail was packed with all manner of lollygaggers. nevertheless, i cruised down it on the e-bike to take advantage of the sun and whip out the trusty 20D, which has seen all too little use over this stressful residency match season.
without further ado:
without further ado:
that's the Space Needle and Queen Anne hill in the background across Lake Union
"Custom" U-lock mount made from four strategically placed zipties
Torque arm: 10mm crescent wrench, two hose clamps, and a ziptie
Center stand, like a motorcycle
Waterproofing and anti-theft/uglifying job on the motor controller
Toshi
10 kW
A few catch-up thoughts:
1) note the centerstand in the above photos. It rocks. See the last page of this thread for info on where to buy it. I still need to make sure that the footing is good and the ground isn't sloped off to the right else the bike will want to tip that way, but it's worlds better than the kickstand and is cool for its moto-ness
2) I sold the OEM generator hub/front wheel/light/handlebar setup that came with the Novara Transfer (and were replaced by either electric or my parts -- I much prefer my trusty Answer Protaper handlebars). A few days on Craigslist brought in $100, bringing the net cost for the bike to $409. That's not shabby at all given its fenders, rack, and Shimano Nexus 7-speed internal hub!
3) I'm still waiting on taller gearing. For now I'm zipping along on the flats and hills at WOT without pedaling since I can't spin at a 120+ rpm cadence, and pedaling to maintain 18-20 mph up hills. As a result I've been using 20-22 Wh/mi for the last few days. Global average is 17 Wh/mi at this point.
4) I passed the 150 mile point today. 8)
5) I sold my car on Wednesday, and am replacing it with only a Zipcar membership as this e-bike is working very well for my around-town purposes: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4289
6) Note the -30 angle of the stem, and the relationship of the handlebar and seat height. Aerodynamics are crucial no matter what your source of propulsion is, and this is why I am so aghast at seeing e-bikes here on endless-sphere with sky high front ends...
1) note the centerstand in the above photos. It rocks. See the last page of this thread for info on where to buy it. I still need to make sure that the footing is good and the ground isn't sloped off to the right else the bike will want to tip that way, but it's worlds better than the kickstand and is cool for its moto-ness
2) I sold the OEM generator hub/front wheel/light/handlebar setup that came with the Novara Transfer (and were replaced by either electric or my parts -- I much prefer my trusty Answer Protaper handlebars). A few days on Craigslist brought in $100, bringing the net cost for the bike to $409. That's not shabby at all given its fenders, rack, and Shimano Nexus 7-speed internal hub!
3) I'm still waiting on taller gearing. For now I'm zipping along on the flats and hills at WOT without pedaling since I can't spin at a 120+ rpm cadence, and pedaling to maintain 18-20 mph up hills. As a result I've been using 20-22 Wh/mi for the last few days. Global average is 17 Wh/mi at this point.
4) I passed the 150 mile point today. 8)
5) I sold my car on Wednesday, and am replacing it with only a Zipcar membership as this e-bike is working very well for my around-town purposes: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4289
6) Note the -30 angle of the stem, and the relationship of the handlebar and seat height. Aerodynamics are crucial no matter what your source of propulsion is, and this is why I am so aghast at seeing e-bikes here on endless-sphere with sky high front ends...
Mark_A_W
100 kW
Toshi said:
This is why I have bar ends with a throttle, although in practice sitting up or down only makes ~50watts difference.
I also use about 8 Wh/km (~13Wh/mi) so I must be going slower than you, or pedalling more! I have some pretty reasonable hills.
Your open ended spanner torque arm makes me very uncomfortable...
Toshi
10 kW
The spanner is held in place by the axle nut... I'm still being quite cautious while accelerating from low speeds, when the torque is at its greatest.Mark_A_W said:
How fast are you going? I'm averaging about 18.5 mph up hill and dale, pedaling lately only when the motor can't push me alone at more than 20 mph on its own (so on hills of roughly 5% grade or greater). I still haven't fixed the gearing so can't pedal along comfortably at the motor's WOT cruising speed on flat ground of 24-26 mph.
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