Design the perfect ebike challenge - commuter bike

[simon2668]

post up your ideas on what the perfect ebike would look like, be like, and cost for the task of commuting to and from work.

The specifics:

Commute distance - 15km each way
Can recharge at work on mains power
Average gradient 2% with some steep but short hills
Desired commute time approximately 30 minutes

Post up your sketches and ideas to discuss with everyone!

You define other ideas and assumptions.

 

[diff_lock]

30km avg speed is pretty high for a city / commuter traffic, especially with lots of snow fall.

 

[MadRhino]

Many here, have built their perfect commuter bike. Yet they are very different, because each has his own idea of "perfect".

For me, the perfect commuter ebike has to be an ULM (Ultra Lightweight Motorcycle).
Comfortable and reliable to ride 50 Mph, with aggressive acceleration, short braking distance, dirt bike handling.

 

[SlowCo]

post up your ideas on what the perfect ebike would look like, be like, and cost for the task of commuting to and from work.

In stead you could try and search this forum yourself to see what others have built and narrow down the best design that would work for you. I'm sure that when you have specific questions about certain choices after your search there will be many people on here that are willing to help clarify.

 

[fredfire]

My perfect commuter, is the bbs02 on my Devinci Magma, a DH mtb with disk brakes and dual suspension.
Battery is in my backpack and I added 12awg speaker cable.

I can lock it anywhere because the bike looks like shit and the bbs02 is well enough hidden.
I can bring the battery/charger inside to charge.

bbs02 is powerful enough to get at 50km/h, so it's more than enough for city.

 

[Raged]

If you are already familiar with road riding, a Cyclocross or 29er (depending on whether you prefer flat bar vs drop bar) with a BBS02 750W will do that commute quite easily with a small battery and allow you to cruise at 50km/h.

 

[amberwolf]

post up your ideas on what the perfect ebike would look like, be like, and cost for the task of commuting to and from work.

My perfect commuter ebikes are in my signature. (other than wishing I had larger capacity batteries, and more lights)



Unfortunately your listed limitations don't have anything to do with my commute to and from my work. (though both of mine could easily do your commute, plus).

If you want others to design *your* bike for you, you might need to be clearer in your original post about that.

Plus, none of us can say what would be perfect for *you*, only for ourselves.



If you are wanting suggestions on how to improve or build your bike in your existing design thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=72611
then perhaps you should be asking there?

Commute distance - 15km each way
Can recharge at work on mains power
Average gradient 2% with some steep but short hills
Desired commute time approximately 30 minutes

Any battery can recharge from mains power--almost any of them are designed specifically to do that.

FWIW, if it's 15km each way, and 30 minute commute, that's only 30km/h, right? About 18mph? Average, anyway. Pretty much any "1000w" kit could do that. (but there's nothing legal in Australia that will do it without a lot of help from you, and probably not legal to do it at those speeds, anyway, IIRC, if you care about legality).

 

[80for20]

I would ask, do you have a lot of lights/stop signs? That's what kills my commute time.

 

[Sunder]

If you want a perfect eBike, set aside a large stash of cash, and include in it:

1. A DH bike and a road bike.

2. A mid drive, a geared hub and a direct drive hub

3. Plenty of budget for batteries, ranging from only just able to do 15km, to needing only one charge per week.

4. A small compact 260g FOC controller, and a monster 2.5kg Sabvoton Sine Wave controller.

5. Different tyres of different widths and pressures

6. A couple different crank sets to see if you enjoy cycling.

$10-15k should do it.

Seriously, I had a fairly good idea of what I wanted when I started - I knew I wanted a pedal assist, not an electric motorcycle - and I still have a lot of test/no longer used equipment. I started off with 10Ah of batteries, and thought it was too small, and went 16Ah. Then as I got fitter, I hated the 5kg of battery throwing off the balance of my bike and went 5Ah.

"Perfect" changes not only from person to person, but from time to time. Unsurprisingly, people who describe themselves as perfectionists are less happy than those who do not. Build a bike you enjoy, live with it, and as money frees itself up, upgrade anything that you think could be better.

 

[dogman dan]

Most 48v hubmotors will get you the speed you need to average a 30 min commute. You may or may not actually reach a 30 min time depending on your route, lights, stops, etc. The safe route will not be on a street full of cars going 70 kph, so I can't advise doing that to save time. The back streets will require you to ride no more than about 40 kph, so it might be more like a 35 or 40 min commute. Average may be more like 28 kph. I wouldn't go get killed to save 10 min. Would you?

For many, the perfect commuter is some type of cargo bike. Because it can carry your groceries home. How silly would it be to ride past the store on the way home, then get in a car and drive back for some beer and a pizza.

So though I did my commuting on a full suspension bike, it still had to have some large panniers on it, and I carried a messenger bag too for when I needed to carry a loaf of bread with less squashing it.

I no longer commute, but since I still do lots of shopping by bike, my current bike is a cargo bike able to carry a pizza. For big loads of groceries I tow the trailer.

I would put comfort number one on bike choices for a commuter, 9 miles one way is long enough for that to matter. If it's 9 miles both ways, then you could ride any uncomfortable bike easy. One popular comfortable choice is a cruiser bike of some kind. A 7 speed steel beach cruiser can be very nice, or with more funds bikes like an Electra Cruiser works well for many. Weight of the bike won't matter with a motor, so don't go looking at carbon and skinny tires.

 

[simon2668]

Thanks guys for the posts! This is not a 'design me a bike for free' post... Instead like you I want to ride my bike to commute and not drive a car... Yes I am building a commuting bike right now of my design and choosing... I do not plan to build something else for a while yet... Have to save up again!

I'm more interested in what do others look for in a bike and what does it take to get people to leave the car at home to take the bike as preference...

If there is a concensus in the responses I will sketch something up and post it here in this thread for comment... Just for the heck of it... Might end up been a funny design to fit it all in....

As for the commute time. It can be any time you like... I just put a number in but really it's whatever suits the route etc.

For this situation my ideal bike would be a hybrid with mid drive and small lipos. One set is left at work and one in the bike and you can swap them at each end of the trip thus keeping the battery small... There are some drawbacks to this I guess like - if you forget your pack and want to go for a ride on a sick day you have to go to work first haha...

Thanks people. Keep em coming!

 

[LewTwo]

Please to define 'perfect'.

 

[amberwolf]

I'm more interested in what do others look for in a bike and what does it take to get people to leave the car at home to take the bike as preference...

If you are interested, there are threads about that sort of thing already, whcih you can research for more information.
One possible search
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=perfect+*bike&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
that just searches by topic title and displays jsut the topics. Other possible search terms would be "best *bike", "ideal *bike"or other similar phrases.

If there is a concensus in the responses

Even without it being electric-motor-assisted (or powered), there won't even be a consensus in how many wheels it shoudl have, much less their size or placement, much less anything else about it, other than (possibly) that it would be meant to transport at least one human on a regular basis to and from some destination. :lol:

 

[Ykick]

Another “idea person” completely ignoring history. You see, for several decades, factories have been steadily churning out really wonderful motorcycles/scooters.

But why haven’t more people left the car at home and taken up riding some of these modern, reliable motorcycles/scooters? Because they run on gasoline? Hahaha…

Fact is, only a small percentage of the population will ever feel capable of riding in traffic for transportation purposes. Never mind harsh weather, limited cargo/passenger capability and expensive upkeep.

We’ve seen it time and time again and again how someone discovers the joy of riding and immediately believe vast numbers of people will surely take it up once they’re exposed to it.

Yes, a few do but many more won’t. And out of the few that do, a good portion of those will give it up after a crash or couple close calls with Oscar Grope.

History my friend, history…

 

[Sunder]

Seen it time and time again and again how someone discovers the joy of riding and immediately believe vast numbers of people will surely take it up once they’re exposed to it.

Maybe so, but I think with each iteration we're probably getting closer. I used to get to work near one of the most congested roads in Sydney, with an average speed of 32km/h, but which also had a dedicated bike lane. Not only have I seen far more people use it in the last few years, I've convinced one person also to ride instead of drive.

The wheels of change turn slowly... but they crush anyone who can't get out of the way. Soon it will be 45 mins in the car, and $4 in tolls a day, or else 35 mins on a bike and free from tolls and petrol. Some might even give up their car entirely. Masses? Not this iteration. But how long until major western cities are like Japan and Bejing? Electric bikes by the thousand everywhere

 

[Chalo]

Leaving the car at home, or at the junkyard, is an expression of personal character and has nothing to do with the bike. That's why most people, who lack character, will choose a car over any kind of bike every time. It appeals to their fundamental weakness.

A bicycle is a product of a process of refinement much longer and more comprehensive than what all of us together could do with e-bikes in two lifetimes. I believe an e-bike should confirm as closely to the pattern of a traditional bicycle as practicable: steel diamond frame, wheels approximately 700mm in outside diameter with tires 40-60mm wide, rigid fork set to yield about 50mm of trail, swept upright handlebars, luggage capacity, and weight distributed evenly front and rear.

Motorcycles started with this formula, and only departed from it once they were traveling at speeds that have since proved inefficient, noisy, and hazardous. E-bikes should not travel at such speeds, so they shouldn't take their design features from motorcycles.

 

[Raged]

A bicycle is a product of a process of refinement much longer and more comprehensive than what all of us together could do with e-bikes in two lifetimes. I believe an e-bike should confirm as closely to the pattern of a traditional bicycle as practicable: steel diamond frame, wheels approximately 700mm in outside diameter with tires 40-60mm wide, rigid fork set to yield about 50mm of trail, swept upright handlebars, luggage capacity, and weight distributed evenly front and rear.

Thx Chalo, You've just described my 29er Cyclocross BBS02 stealth build =). *HIGH FIVE*

 

[dogman dan]

Chalo has a valid point there. Above all a good commuter has to handle well, and not pound your ass to dough on a rough road. Departing too much from traditional bike geometry does not always improve the bike. Suspension may or may not be a plus for street commuting. That may depend on the road and your lumbar discs. If you have a crappy enough road and a destroyed back, the downsides of suspension may be well worth it to you. But if you do choose a bike with shocks, setting them silly soft for street would be dumb as hell.

But I do like the long bikes, since the weight penalty of them is canceled out by a motor. They don't ride so twitchy when loaded with some cargo, and most of them have a nice stiff frame from side to side. They don't pound your ass and lumbar disks as much when ridden in an upright position because the seat is not right over the rear wheel. The effect on your back is very different riding upright, vs riding in a racing tuck. If you don't pedal hard, then all your weight is on your ass. Pedaling hard, your ass just floats above the seat.

So for me, my current long bike is just about the best street ride I've had yet. It could go motorcycle fast, but I have no intention of riding streets that fast. 30 mph maybe, but not 40. The main thing about it is it rides nice, even very loaded down.

What I'm trying to say is the perfect bike for one guy might be misery for me. I can no longer pedal hard for long, and my back got trashed 30 years ago. For this reason, you won't be finding anything close to consensus about what makes a great commuter.

But it is worth noting, there has been a gradual gravitation toward cargo bikes, among those who truly leave the car at home a lot. It may be a long bike, a trike, or just a nice trailer for the bike. But to replace the car, you really do need to be able to haul some stuff.

The ideal commuter? You might say the Yuba Spicy Curry comes damn close, with it's huge cargo deck and mid drive. Or you might say it's just too far from a traditional bike for you.

http://yubabikes.com/spicy-curry

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

This with a rear hub motor/controller/battery setup adequate to my terrain and ride profile. The rear 20" wheel allows good acceleration and hill climbing ability with a relatively modest hub motor setup, recumbent seating and suspension for comfort and plenty of load space for cargo with the CG of the load situated low and centrally fore to aft for minimal effect on handling.

I really enjoy total silence from my drive train so DD hub, perhaps one of the new 1500 watt motors that seem to be gaining popularity with Grin FOC sine controller and about 60-72V depending on the wind of the motor.

 

[Chalo]

So for me, my current long bike is just about the best street ride I've had yet. It could go motorcycle fast, but I have no intention of riding streets that fast. 30 mph maybe, but not 40. The main thing about it is it rides nice, even very loaded down.

What I'm trying to say is the perfect bike for one guy might be misery for me. I can no longer pedal hard for long, and my back got trashed 30 years ago. For this reason, you won't be finding anything close to consensus about what makes a great commuter.

But it is worth noting, there has been a gradual gravitation toward cargo bikes, among those who truly leave the car at home a lot. It may be a long bike, a trike, or just a nice trailer for the bike. But to replace the car, you really do need to be able to haul some stuff.

The ideal commuter? You might say the Yuba Spicy Curry comes damn close, with it's huge cargo deck and mid drive. Or you might say it's just too far from a traditional bike for you.

http://yubabikes.com/spicy-curry

Longtails are another thing altogether, which make bicycles even more able to replace the function of cars for short distance travel. Tandem bicycles give us some traditional design elements we can draw on to get the best out of them, along with a certain amount of special equipment like extra strong wheels.

I tend to favor trailers for load carrying, mostly because they let me use my existing inventory of bikes to do more jobs. But longtails have natural advantages in stability, ride quality, and tolerance of higher than humanly attainable speeds.

Rugged surfaces can require special equipment, too, especially with motors offering us the opportunity to travel such surfaces at smooth road speeds when we couldn't do so otherwise. But this isn't a novel phenomenon. Bicycles preceded good roads and were the basis for the political movement that got us widespread pavement to begin with. Fat tires 29 inches or more in diameter were common in the late 1800s and early 1900s, when smooth roads were few. My MTB has a sprung saddle on it that was designed a century ago for road conditions in British East Africa. It's heavy and noisy for a saddle, but it really helps make bad surfaces gentler on the body. Modern hydraulically damped suspension is even better at doing that.

 

[Snurt]

Cube AMS 100 with some mid drive unit. Would be my dream if it only was available with a steel or alu frame.

Btw, anyone know of a frame like the Cube AMS 100 thats in aluminium?

 

[cal3thousand]

The perfect bike means many different things to different people, evidenced by the samples above.

Some things are a matter of preference and direction of compromise. For example, some want more range, but that range is a compromise of speed traveled, bike form factor, battery weight, cost, and a list of other things. The rider has to tailor his bike to his particular set of needs, terrain, budget, and desires.

And while there are trade-offs everywhere, some things are universal to bikes and should generally not be compromised on. A balanced and well-behaved bike should be high on the list of things to not compromise upon if one seeks long-term contentment. One of the major things that I learned in building bikes for myself is that comfort and safe handling (steering, braking, balance) are paramount in a successful bike build.

 

[Sunder]

We've gone off topic from the OP for the last few posts, so I might reign in back in. I think we've already established that "perfection" means different things to different people.

My design target use case: Fully sealed road, a few short steep hills, 20km each way for 90% of travel. Range - a small pack capable of 10km, and a large pack capable of 50km. Designed to run high 30s without pedaling, and assistance up to high 40s with pedalling (So current limited, not RPM limited). Higher quality gear set, as I do want to pedal.

My ideal design: Smallest hub possible, capable of 800w constant, 1000w @ 20km/h for up to 1 minute to help with hills without burning out (This is a very tough requirement as small hubs tend not to have much thermal mass to absorb high power, low speed situations). 10 speed rear, large single road front ring (Possibly Ovaloid ring). FOC and/or Pure Sine controller. Current limited start to reduce wheel spin and stress on internal gears. Front suspension, with 40 to 50mm eBike tyres.

My actual design:
Q100H 260RPM (Oil cooling this weekend - ordered stronger springs for fitting later)
1000W trapezoidal controller (PhaseRunner finished last night, fitting this weekend)
12S 16AH Multistar battery pack (16S 5AH Zippy finished last weekend, fitting this weekend)
No suspension Hybrid
28/38/48 Triple Front - 54T Single Ossymetric to be ordered later
11-34 7 Speed DNP - 7 Speed Shimano 13-34 to be ordered later
42mm E.Contact EBike Tyres

My actual design obviously doesn't meet my ideal design, but when the modifications are finished, it should be very close.

 

[d8veh]

One important point about using lipos and charging them at work. There's lots of regulations that apply to what you can do at work and what equipment you can use, depending on which country you live in. Charging lipos wouldn't normally be allowed.

Another useful point: If you're going to ride in the rain, get yourself a cape. It will protect both you and your electrics from getting wet, and what's more you can use it as a bike cover if you have to leave your bike outside in the rain. I haven't found any other waterproof clothing that's comfortable to pedal with when it's raining.

Don't think about commuing in the rain without decent mudguards.

For tyres, Schwalbe Marathon Plus protect you against punctures and last forever. Their Energizer tyres, made specifically for electric bikes, are also good. There's probably other tyres with a proper puncture guard, but most don't come lose to the Schwalbe system. Since I fitted these tyres, I've done 3,500 miles without a puncture. Before that, punctures were a real nuicance - maybe one or two a month, using so-called puncture resistant tyres.

Full suspension bikes are more comfortable, but you give up a fair amount of efficiency. Hybrid bikes with thin 700c tyres and thin forks go much faster with lower power. If you like you pedal and are already a regular cyclist, you can therefore still get a fast commuter whilst complying with regulations.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, fenders. 8)

Though my old commuter had a MTB type front fender, one of the reasons for choosing my current cruiser was the full length fenders. Real nice even if you only ride just after the rain stopped.

I've definitely converted to liking a trailer too. But my ass still likes the ride of the longtail to tow it. I also have this set up to tow.

But in fact, my lower back still prefers the longtail for a really long ride. But the bent is fine for a run to the store.