Direct-Drive conversion of the new GNG/cycmotor X1-pro 3000w

[crossbreak]

[...] For those of who already have brakes it would be good do know what dimensions of caliper would work with your rotor/cog set up, to see if our existing brakes would work or not. [...]

It should work with any disc brake caliper that is shimano/magura/tektro compatible. Not sure if all calipers will fit in the end, this is something to be tried. I'll cut the adapter next week and test fit it with the shimano, magura and tektro brakes i have at hand and let you know the results. I will also make a drawing that shows the max dimensions so you can check dimensions of your caliper.

[...]
Am I reading right that your adapter for Disc Rotor and Rear Cog will fit on any Stock Wheel ?

the ones that i have at hand all fit, i have four different brands. i will test fit this as well. We will see how it works out, it's always better to test this in the real world as there might be clearance issues that are not covered in CAD models that are always limited in precision.

So in the event I need a replacement disk there won't be anything off the shelf? If I understand correctly.

yes, as i wrote in the first post, the custom 203mm disc is included. I can send you the DXF-file of the disc rotor so you can lazer replacements at your local lazer shop. It shall be cut from 2mm 1.4021 or 1.4571 steel. If you have problems finding a lazer shop that cuts this material, there are online shops who lazer you any disc rotor you like - even with your name on it. Just send them a DXF-file, for example this shop: https://shop.brake-stuff.de/en/custom-brake-discs/30/custom-brake-disc-personalized-brake-disc-6-hole-suitable-for-downhill-bikes

I dont want anyone to come short in replacement parts and dont plan to make profit from this, i just want to have better ebikes and make my own builds cheaper due to the larger number of interchangeable components. Hopefully other builders who do not use this particular motor will also use this (then) well tested left-hand drive disc/sprocket solution

Approximate price?
i said 100€ but it looks more like 150€ with all bolts and disc included. As said, the more we cut, the cheaper it gets. I pay €250 for my first prototype cuts. Without any bolts.

the adapter will add ~300g (around 0,7 lbs) of weigth to the rear wheel

for the better understanding, here is a drawing of a single piece milled adapter that will actually never be milled ( much too expensive ):

 

[Andrewol]

If I have 5-6mm clearance from my caliper to spokes of rearwheel, will your adapter fit to my setup?
Why do you want it without built-in freewheel (with X1 built-in freewheel) as was shown in post by ScooterMan101 » Dec 09 2018 8:03am? This chainwheel will be spinning all the time you ride.
Gear version or Chain version of X1 is more suitable for this drive convertion?

My friend has a CNC machine. I can ask him how much it may cost to cut adapter and chainwheel. It must be cheaper than in Germany.

 

[crossbreak]

5-6 mm are fine as the sprocket sits below the caliper.

I can ask him how much it may cost to cut adapter and chainwheel.

i dont cut the chainwheel. It is a normal 36T signle speed one, i use a shimano zee with 104mm BCD, i paid 15€ for it, I dont think you can make this cheaper by yourself

sure we could mill this adapter in china or somewhere else, lazering the stuff is still cheaper (and a lot quicker), i did already order milled parts from china and they are expensive if you dont order 50 or 100 parts and then i can almost mill it here in germany for slightly higher prices. If everything is developed and tested and if there is enough demand for these parts, then we can think about milling this part, but not right now. I left you a PM, i you want, you can try to mill it, i can send you the files.

Anyway, for those who want a tested and working solution, you can just use the LMX freewheel and sprocket adapter: https://lmxbikes.com/en/spare-parts/94-lmx-170mm-double-freewheel-rear-hub.html

Why do you want it without built-in freewheel (with X1 built-in freewheel)

simplicity and durability. I cant add a freewheel to the adapter when using lazerparts. As soon as we mill it, we can add this
Also keep in mind that this drive uses a much lower chain reduction, so maybe this freewheel is not needed. We use a normal bicycle chain that has less drag and runs with less noise at lower chain speed than those single reduction #219 drives

Gear version or Chain version of X1 is more suitable for this drive convertion?

i took the gear version for the already mentioned reasons

 

[Andrewol]

With Gear version you will need a motor chainring instead of gear pulley. What type will give 60-80km/h: 11T, 22T with 20S battery and 36T sprocket 29" wheels? Cycmotor advised 12500 motor rpm with 20S battery.
You mentioned gear ver. has a freewheel in right direction. In chain ver. motor should spin clockwise, if lefthand mounted we need motor to spin counter-clockwise (gear ver.).
What about belt drive 8M22, is it possible for 180NM?
No matter which frame to use for this conversion?

 

[crossbreak]

the 8M22 will most probably not fit since it will intefere with the frame &/or tire, at least if you dont have a ~170mm rear axle like the LMX. Also it wont be possitble to get the desired reduction ratio with a desirable front pulley tooth count of 20T+, the rear pulley is ~145mm max in diameter, so around 50T max for the M8 rear pulley. You will end up with a 50T/18T reduction or so. Not so nice.
With such a belt you will have a lot of drag, so you will loose power, efficiency and will most likely you will want the freewheel in the disc-rotor/rear-sprocket adapter, which makes the system less robust, more heavy etc. Additionally your belt pulleys have to be aligned perfectly , otherwise they will move around axially and will eventually jump off. I am not sure if your frame is stiff enough fo that, this motor pulls quite a bit, your frame&swing arm will flex somewhat

I would definitely stay away from using a belt in this application

please read the first posts carefully, you will find all your other questions answered there

 

[Andrewol]

I'm going to use Cube Hyde Pro frame for this project. Is it stiff enough?
We can use 8M15 belt, but will it survive with 180nm of torque? I guess belt drive is superior to chain drive in any way if it's done properly, considering also zero noise level from belt. Chain 18T-36T reduction to belt drive will be 65mm-130mm pulley effective diameter which converts to 8M belt type tooth count (3.14*D\8) 25T-50T. It's not a problem to get the desired reduction ratio with a desirable front pulley tooth count, most important to choose strong enough belt. Of course they can't play when installed like a chainrings as well.
I haven't found in the first post something about motor spin direction, only about freewheel direction. Cycmotor advised motor spin direction can be changed in an app.
With 18T front, 36T rear chainrings online calculator says I can ride at 45-61kmph with lowest to highest voltage range of 20S battery on 700c wheels. Can we use 18T-32T chainrings for higher speed or it will be difficult for the motor?

If you want chain drive only without freewheel on the rear, we can just use custom made rear disc brake rotor for chain drive like sprockets. There won't be any need for adaptor in this case, but only if brake caliper is mounted inside triangle.
Don't know why, but my PM to you still stays in Out box.

That's why the upcoming LR LHD single stage kit is on my list. The LR has more motor mass (I forgot about rotor width and diameter of the GNG and bigblock ...bigblock is 60mm wide I think) so the LR should deliver much more low end torque if geared accordingly.

What are you talking about, Land Rover LHD?

 

[DolphLundgren]

What are you talking about, Land Rover LHD?

Lightning Rods upcoming left side drive kit.

 

[crossbreak]

some pics of the rear sprocket adapter and the frame i want to use for this build
the last pic shows some very tight fit i made, added no clearance here abviously, i'll make this 2-3mm larger when i cut this again
there is also very little distance between protection disc and brake, something i will change as well

 

[ScooterMan101]

Very Nice , You guys with machine shops have all the Fun !

What would be the result of just using a sprocket/cog that has 2-4 less teeth ?

( For myself and others as well the whole reason for buying a high power system is for higher speeds )

 

[SlowCo]

Why a bicycle chain and not a kart chain? Nice work nonetheless!

 

[ScooterMan101]

Something about higher noise and other problems , but not much or any benefit .
There has been allot of talk about this on other mid-drive threads, ( I forgot which ones and where right now )
Also off the shelf sprockets / cogs are much easier to obtain and cheaper .
You can buy them in much greater tooth counts,
making a sprocket / cog is hard , I have asked someone with a machine shop in my area and he said it takes a special and expensive machine to do that .

Why a bicycle chain and not a karting chain? Nice work nontheless

 

[crossbreak]

@SlowCo: I have bad experience with the kart chains. Was always load and expensive in the end. The SRAM 830 costs me 5€ and i can use the same for the pedal drive, also for my BBSHD and my girlfriends BBS02 and all the other bikes i own. Form the specs a karting chain should not be needed. To me it looks like the bycicle chains are optimized more for silence, efficiency and cost.

@Scooterman: not sure, the reduction was just calced for 60kph, we will see how it performs. Hopefully i get hands on the motor tomorrow but i will need another 4 weeks to get the mounts, sprocket, tensioner and the rest of the bike done

Also off the shelf sprockets / cogs are much easier to obtain and cheaper .
You can buy them in much greater tooth counts, making a sprocket / cogs is hard , I have asked someone with a machine shop in my area and he said it takes a special and expensive machine to do that .

I laser the front sprocket as well and could have lazered a kart sprocket for the rear as well, and yes it would have added cost and effort. I grind the camfers of the lazered sprockets by hand.

On the other hand this 104mm BCD is just what i needed, I like to stick to standardized parts if possible

 

[ScooterMan101]

Only 60 kph ? I can do that with my 6t mac motor on 35-40 amps and 52 volt pack.
Although it does use up the battery pack fast when doing so.
I want to sell my motorcycle and have something that does not burn petrol .
( I have to anyway in order to pay for such a drive like the X1 Pro and your improvements )
so a
Smaller Rear Cog for me .
And
I am guessing I am not the only one .

 

[Tommm]

On the other hand this 104mm BCD is just what i needed, I like to stick to standardized parts if possible

You can get 104mm BCD 32t 219h.

http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/accessories/secondary-chain-drive/new-category/

Do you have experience in single speed vs multispeed chains? How much of a difference is it?

 

[crossbreak]

You can get 104mm BCD 32t 219h.
http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/accessories/secondary-chain-drive/new-category/

Do you have experience in single speed vs multispeed chains? How much of a difference is it?

no and no. This link you posted is definitly a normal bicycle sprocket. No #219

@ Scooterman: Better use a 13 or 14T front sprocket. your chain will say "thank you" one day i am sure

 

[crossbreak]

Very Nice , You guys with machine shops have all the Fun

making a sprocket / cog is hard , I have asked someone with a machine shop in my area and he said it takes a special and expensive machine to do that .

also the answer is no and no. I dont own a lazer machine or work at a machine shop. I just lazer my parts online, the same for my 3D printed parts. I do not own a 3D printer. I would not print enough so it is worth buying one i think. You also dont need an espensive CAD license to make such adapters. You can do it with freecad for example. The nice Bike model i donwloaded from the internet is also something that is not really needed. I need to try things in the end anyway (ok a 3D printer would really help here :? )

 

[Andrewol]

Hi Crossbreak.
Will you send me CAD drawing for this project?
Using 13 - 14T front sprocket result in even lower speed than with 18T you are currently using if rear sprocket remains the same. To raise the speed ScooterMan need to lower teeth count on rear cog or raise them on front cog or both variants combined, but it will increase a load on drivetrain.
Thanks.

 

[Tommm]

You can get 104mm BCD 32t 219h.
http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/accessories/secondary-chain-drive/new-category/

Do you have experience in single speed vs multispeed chains? How much of a difference is it?

no and no. This link you posted is definitly a normal bicycle sprocket. No #219

@ Scooterman: Better use a 13 or 14T front sprocket. your chain will say "thank you" one day i am sure

You sure? This one says 219 and 104bcd clearly in description.
http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/32t-chain-ring/

 

[silence]

You can get 104mm BCD 32t 219h.
http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/accessories/secondary-chain-drive/new-category/

Do you have experience in single speed vs multispeed chains? How much of a difference is it?

no and no. This link you posted is definitly a normal bicycle sprocket. No #219

@ Scooterman: Better use a 13 or 14T front sprocket. your chain will say "thank you" one day i am sure

You sure? This one says 219 and 104bcd clearly in description.
http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/32t-chain-ring/

There's a mistake.
32T 219 chainring is impossible with 104 BCD.
It's diameter will be smaller than 104mm.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46630

 

[Tommm]

There's a mistake.
32T 219 chainring is impossible with 104 BCD.
It's diameter will be smaller than 104mm.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46630

32t bike chainring is possible and even 30t. I have a 30t bcd 104.
So unless the 219 uses much deeper pitches(your link says it doesn't) it should be perfectly possible.

 

[crossbreak]

just believe me, it is a bycicle chainring which can be very easily calced as silence already said. You dont even need to calc a lot, a #219 will be roughly 12.7/7.774 times smaller, thus the same size as a ~20 teeth bycicle chainring...where can i buy a 104mm bycicle chainring with only 20 teeth ?

there is a simple solution, just drop every 2nd tooth :lol:

 

[ScooterMan101]

Nice, Does this mean that for those of us that live a long distance from you, we can just have or buy the CAD or what ever can be downloaded for the parts ?
So that a local place to us can Lazer and/or Print parts .
or
Do you want to make a little selling the parts ?

I dont own a lazer machine or work at a machine shop. I just lazer my parts online, the same for my 3D printed parts. I do not own a 3D printer. I would not print enough so it is worth buying one i think. You also dont need an espensive CAD license to make such adapters. You can do it with freecad for example. The nice Bike model i donwloaded from the internet is also something that is not really needed. I need to try things in the end anyway (ok a 3D printer would really help here :? )

 

[crossbreak]

maybe, not sure about this yet. at least i will post the brake disc soon, so people can lazer own replacments locally. I mean you can rebuilt this anyway if you want. But first i want to try to make it work, if you know what i mean

@andrewol: u need to tell me the Format, as i already told u in the PM

 

[crossbreak]

some pics of the disassembly. i used a 15mm opend end wrench to press off the gear

PLEASE BE AWARE THAT THIS MOTOR IS A PREPRODUCTION MODEL AND DOES NOT SHOW THE FINAL PRODUCT

 

[Tommm]

just believe me, it is a bycicle chainring which can be very easily calced as silence already said. You dont even need to calc a lot, a #219 will be roughly 12.7/7.774 times smaller, thus the same size as a ~20 teeth bycicle chainring...where can i buy a 104mm bycicle chainring with only 20 teeth ?

there is a simple solution, just drop every 2nd tooth :lol:

Good explanation. I forgot the tooth are much closer together on the 219. I thought by pitch you meant the depth of the cutout between them.