E-Bikekit.com 36v 10ah LiFePo4 Battery
- Thread starter Ypedal
- Start date
E-BikeKit.com
10 W
Deleted. Thank you to all at ES.
dnmun
1 PW
unfortunately, what jason is saying is too true. too much legal exposure, our guvment is destructive this way. look at all the poor shop owners who have hand made toys they now cannot sell because they cannot PROVE there is no lead anywhere in them. add them to the bankrupt pile.
no way jason could sit there when the lawyer for our guvment prosecuting him asks ,"can a 48V battery propel this bike faster than 20mph, yes or no?", and say no.
you can lose everything in a second, that may be why dave at electricrider would not sponsor the lifebatt packs too, or why jason needed to get rid of the 9X7 rear motors. it is impossible to say, "nope, they will not go over 20mph". that's what our country has come to.
the guys who are building the plug in hybrids are getting ruined by the same bureaucratic harassment from the california airshed committee since they need to meet so much new regulation they can't build the PHEV's anymore.
yet the lawyers figured out a way for AIG to bankrupt the country and help all the overseas US manufacturers hide their earnings from our taxman. whatta great country.
no way jason could sit there when the lawyer for our guvment prosecuting him asks ,"can a 48V battery propel this bike faster than 20mph, yes or no?", and say no.
you can lose everything in a second, that may be why dave at electricrider would not sponsor the lifebatt packs too, or why jason needed to get rid of the 9X7 rear motors. it is impossible to say, "nope, they will not go over 20mph". that's what our country has come to.
the guys who are building the plug in hybrids are getting ruined by the same bureaucratic harassment from the california airshed committee since they need to meet so much new regulation they can't build the PHEV's anymore.
yet the lawyers figured out a way for AIG to bankrupt the country and help all the overseas US manufacturers hide their earnings from our taxman. whatta great country.
The duct tape packs are made from soft foil pouches with spot welded and soldered tabs... multiple cells in paralell grouped up to make X ah.. BMS covered in shrink wrap and external to the pack... etc...
The EBK pack is made of single 10ah cells, not foil pouch but rather lazer welded rigid cans, this does add weight to a pack but is much stonger and resistant to impacts / bumps / and tumbles... smaller form factor BMS contained inside aluminum box safely tucked away...
A number more things differ here.. but for a few extra dollars the EBK pack is better quality and more complete plug and play kind of a pack..
The EBK pack is made of single 10ah cells, not foil pouch but rather lazer welded rigid cans, this does add weight to a pack but is much stonger and resistant to impacts / bumps / and tumbles... smaller form factor BMS contained inside aluminum box safely tucked away...
A number more things differ here.. but for a few extra dollars the EBK pack is better quality and more complete plug and play kind of a pack..
dnmun
1 PW
t, i think differences can be formulated:
physical: ping is pouch of mylar film with the electrodes in one layer laid side by side with separator and adjacent electrode in cathodic mash potatoes/gel of electrolyte and cathode granules. layer on layer to build up the total surface area and volume to create the total amount of charge storing capacity.
the prismatic cell is identical in function, but the layers of electrolyte/separator/electrode are wrapped around each other in an ovoid way like a strudel then encased in a solid container without the pouch, and sealed around the perimeter when the lid is put on.
the cylindrical cell is also identical and the electrode/separator/electrolyte mash is wound together one after another so that each layer is staggered slightly from the lower one and the tabs on the end of the electrodes are connecting in a spiral to a flat disk, in what is called a jelly roll machine because of the way it builds up the layers around themselves sequentially, and make the connections to the disk ends inside on both ends for the opposing electrodes' tabs which is the connection we see going to the outer terminal of the pack.
the major concern if i can simplify it, and let everybody pile on it, is that pouches are capable of being punctured or damaged easily, and pouches have tabs sticking out the top for the electrical connection which is subject to damage more easily than the solid metal cylinder caps or the solid case of the prismatic cell. and that they don't produce the high C rates of the cylindrical cells.
the charging rates, discharging rates, and internal resistance are a function of the electrolyte, the cathodic lifepo4 granules (their quality, pore size, granule size and other chemical properties relating to their conductivity and ability to intercalate the ions all carefully controlled secrets of manufacturing), and the structure of the nano scale surface of the anode (which is the value of the goodenough patent for anodes used by a123), crucial in providing maximum usable surface area for current generation when the lithium is precipitating out of the electrolyte solution on the anode.
the various manufacturing processes produce variations in all these functions, and the battery is characterized by its total charge storing capacity, and other thing like weight and size are measures of the compromises you make to have fixed amount of power available. the C rate characterizes how fast the current can be produced from the cell, and the ability to deliver large amounts of current rapidly allow you to have a smaller and lighter pack. but for shorter distances between charges.
one aspect of the cell design relates to whether the layers of electrode and separator and all the gel in between need to be physically and hydraulically contained in a sealed prismatic or metal cylinder type of cell, to prevent the layers from separating, or if the ping pouch doesn't hold the layers together as well and they may suffer or degrade more rapidly if separation takes place over time. and the physical container causes it to hold together tighter, longer.
this was also an issue in the development of the battery packs on the prius, and powermed talked about how they clamped them together to keep the cells from expanding during charge cycles.
but in this thread, gaston tested initially a prismatic pack from jason and then he tested what we presume is a golden motors pack which is similar in appearance to jason's but uses cylindrical cells and a different BMS and charger. ypedal didn't test a ping pack in this thread.
physical: ping is pouch of mylar film with the electrodes in one layer laid side by side with separator and adjacent electrode in cathodic mash potatoes/gel of electrolyte and cathode granules. layer on layer to build up the total surface area and volume to create the total amount of charge storing capacity.
the prismatic cell is identical in function, but the layers of electrolyte/separator/electrode are wrapped around each other in an ovoid way like a strudel then encased in a solid container without the pouch, and sealed around the perimeter when the lid is put on.
the cylindrical cell is also identical and the electrode/separator/electrolyte mash is wound together one after another so that each layer is staggered slightly from the lower one and the tabs on the end of the electrodes are connecting in a spiral to a flat disk, in what is called a jelly roll machine because of the way it builds up the layers around themselves sequentially, and make the connections to the disk ends inside on both ends for the opposing electrodes' tabs which is the connection we see going to the outer terminal of the pack.
the major concern if i can simplify it, and let everybody pile on it, is that pouches are capable of being punctured or damaged easily, and pouches have tabs sticking out the top for the electrical connection which is subject to damage more easily than the solid metal cylinder caps or the solid case of the prismatic cell. and that they don't produce the high C rates of the cylindrical cells.
the charging rates, discharging rates, and internal resistance are a function of the electrolyte, the cathodic lifepo4 granules (their quality, pore size, granule size and other chemical properties relating to their conductivity and ability to intercalate the ions all carefully controlled secrets of manufacturing), and the structure of the nano scale surface of the anode (which is the value of the goodenough patent for anodes used by a123), crucial in providing maximum usable surface area for current generation when the lithium is precipitating out of the electrolyte solution on the anode.
the various manufacturing processes produce variations in all these functions, and the battery is characterized by its total charge storing capacity, and other thing like weight and size are measures of the compromises you make to have fixed amount of power available. the C rate characterizes how fast the current can be produced from the cell, and the ability to deliver large amounts of current rapidly allow you to have a smaller and lighter pack. but for shorter distances between charges.
one aspect of the cell design relates to whether the layers of electrode and separator and all the gel in between need to be physically and hydraulically contained in a sealed prismatic or metal cylinder type of cell, to prevent the layers from separating, or if the ping pouch doesn't hold the layers together as well and they may suffer or degrade more rapidly if separation takes place over time. and the physical container causes it to hold together tighter, longer.
this was also an issue in the development of the battery packs on the prius, and powermed talked about how they clamped them together to keep the cells from expanding during charge cycles.
but in this thread, gaston tested initially a prismatic pack from jason and then he tested what we presume is a golden motors pack which is similar in appearance to jason's but uses cylindrical cells and a different BMS and charger. ypedal didn't test a ping pack in this thread.
dogman dan
1 PW
I'd say as a plug and play, ready to ride battery to go with a motor kit, this is the best offering seen so far. I didn't mind some fabrication to protect my ping, but I'm a handy kinda guy with things like that. Plenty of people aren't, and for them, the price difference is well worth it. People who want to have the cheapest possible battery have tons of sellers of cheapie duct tape packs to choose from. A lot of people are riding around with a duct tape pack in a bag, and they'll damage those packs one day with a crash or just a kickstand problem.
Quick snapshot the various cells possible.. ( from my dead cell collection )
1- Foil Pouch
2- Prismatic
3- 18650 cells
4- 26650 cells
See the single cell charger I'm using to charge up each P group to 100% one at a time.. Tomorrow morning I will top them all off again and do a capacity test. stay tuned !
1- Foil Pouch
2- Prismatic
3- 18650 cells
4- 26650 cells
See the single cell charger I'm using to charge up each P group to 100% one at a time.. Tomorrow morning I will top them all off again and do a capacity test. stay tuned !
Attachments
Results :
"The Other " aka : Not EBK, clone, imposter, fake? nah.. just not EBK.. at 8.8amps discharge = 7.19 Amp Hours
"The Other " aka : Not EBK, clone, imposter, fake? nah.. just not EBK.. at 8.8amps discharge = 7.19 Amp Hours
dogman dan
1 PW
Looks like one gives you a nice battery in a nice box. The other gives you a nice box.
Russell
1 MW
Remember folks you're dealing with a sample of ONE here. You can't condemn a vendor on ONE battery though it seems the "competitor" has a history of less than stellar batteries. Also keep in mind the battery from E-bikekit is $610 compared to $434 for the competitor (both delivered to my zip). You do get 100 bucks off the former if you buy it with a kit which narrows the difference and does I think make it worth it to go with the E-Bikekit battery.
For me though the package is simply too big I wonder if it would fit in one of the TOPEAK MTX bags, then you could slide the battery off the rear rack AND still have some storage space for other essentials
-R
For me though the package is simply too big
I wonder if it would fit in one of the TOPEAK MTX bags, then you could slide the battery off the rear rack AND still have some storage space for other essentials -R
dogman dan
1 PW
Not condemming the vendor, just the 18650 cells. But yeah, you are right, one sample is junk science. That's why the forum is so great, you do get more than one opinon on most things. No doubt on the results of this sample though.
dnmun
1 PW
not sure what you mean that the testing is inconclusive. i thought it was very generous of gaston to charge the cells individually if the BMS and charger could not. in spite of that, the ebikekit prismatic pack delivered 30% more energy from storage than the golden motors pack. there is no way to just say, sampling error, or these were bad ones, not like the normal ones. there isn't that much variation in the manufacturing process.
at least that nut didn't fall into the BMS and short out the battery, stuff happens. coulda done so in the hold of the cargo freighter flying over alaska.
batteries are lifetime investments, imho.
we have seen how spot welds are the problem with some of the tool battery pack failures, i guess doc can comment about the reliability of welds.
i wonder if these are the same prismatic cells justin is selling, difference in capacity for sure.
at least that nut didn't fall into the BMS and short out the battery, stuff happens. coulda done so in the hold of the cargo freighter flying over alaska.
batteries are lifetime investments, imho.
we have seen how spot welds are the problem with some of the tool battery pack failures, i guess doc can comment about the reliability of welds.
i wonder if these are the same prismatic cells justin is selling, difference in capacity for sure.
turoczi
1 W
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2008
- Messages
- 57
I think at this point everyone knows golden motors is about the worst kit, the worst battery you can buy. Not to mention the complete lack of customer service or complete lack of caring about anything but making a buck. Kudos to ebikekit batteries. IMHO golden motors is about the worst people you can buy anything from. They will not return calls, emails.
If you buy from GM you are basically screwed.
If you buy from GM you are basically screwed.
Joey
100 W
Hey Ypedal,
Earlier in this thread you said that you were going to find out if the e-bikekit 36V 10AH LiFePo4 pack could be safely paralleled. I assume you meant paralleling packs without adding diodes. What did you find out?
Joey
Earlier in this thread you said that you were going to find out if the e-bikekit 36V 10AH LiFePo4 pack could be safely paralleled. I assume you meant paralleling packs without adding diodes. What did you find out?
Joey
Yes, the packs Can be hooked up in parallel, if not using Diodes you would have to make SURE that you never hook up a full and an empty pack up, as long as both packs are fully charged it would be fine, Diodes would be a good idea regardless.
The packs can NOT be used in series for 72v..( BMS issues )
8)
The packs can NOT be used in series for 72v..( BMS issues )
8)
dnmun
1 PW
i was under the impression you could use 2 packs in series if you had a schottke diode in parallel with each pack, of higher voltage than the top of the pack.
if one BMS fails or shuts down then the schottke in parallel conducts current around the battery which shuts off.
wish i remembered where richard covered this.
also what diodes do people use for these? is there a specific diode or a cheap one?
if one BMS fails or shuts down then the schottke in parallel conducts current around the battery which shuts off.
wish i remembered where richard covered this.
also what diodes do people use for these? is there a specific diode or a cheap one?
About the diodes, that's something i have to read up on, i know what they do and all that but what size requried and how to wire them up correctly is still a mystery to me at this point in time.. Going to tackle that this week ! :wink:
I"ve been cycling the EBK pack regularly, on the trike, with my eZee bike, and today on the Downtube folding bike !
I used this bike for a season, sold it to a local kid, he has driven it for 2 more seasons and this is his 3rd year on it. Rear crystalyte 405, 20 amp controller, he accidentally ripped the wires out of the throttle and dropped it off here so i can fix it up.. did that today and took it for a test ride !
I"ve been cycling the EBK pack regularly, on the trike, with my eZee bike, and today on the Downtube folding bike !
I used this bike for a season, sold it to a local kid, he has driven it for 2 more seasons and this is his 3rd year on it. Rear crystalyte 405, 20 amp controller, he accidentally ripped the wires out of the throttle and dropped it off here so i can fix it up.. did that today and took it for a test ride !
Attachments
donob08
100 W
I'd like to say a BIG 'Thank You' to ypedal. This is a very informative thread and you have obviously put a lot of effort into it.
It's encouraging to see people like Jason and his E-Bikekit effort. He's doing the right kind of things. I hope he's a big success. I'm happy with my Pings for now. I'm retired and the stock market isn't helping me with spending money. Hopefully Jason can sell a bunch and his price will come down.
thanks, Don
It's encouraging to see people like Jason and his E-Bikekit effort. He's doing the right kind of things. I hope he's a big success. I'm happy with my Pings for now. I'm retired and the stock market isn't helping me with spending money. Hopefully Jason can sell a bunch and his price will come down.
thanks, Don
OneWayTraffic
100 W
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 175
Just as a matter of not so idle curiosity, how much weight do you think that pack could take on top of it? A bag strapped on? A kid sitting on it? More?
All depends on how the box is supported, the edges of the box are solid because of the rail for the mounting plate, double thickness of aluminum on the edges.. but in the centre ( the location of the sticker for example ) it will flex with any more than 10 to 15 lbs..
I'd guesstimate it at 20 lbs or less if the weight is distrubuted correctly on the edges of the box all along the lenght of the pack.
I'd guesstimate it at 20 lbs or less if the weight is distrubuted correctly on the edges of the box all along the lenght of the pack.
dogman dan
1 PW
I do something similar on long weekend rides. A rear carrier bag straps on top of the toolbox with my ping in it. I carry some extra water, tool kit, pump, lunch, extra clothes I took off as it got warm. Not much weight, like more batteries, but 5-10 pounds of stuff seems ok.
I had a feeling they were GM's. I noticed the GM battery was exactly tyhe same, but even with shipping, GM's battey was cheaper. I ordered the older GM battery, which was $353 with shipping. The one that slides on would have been $395. But they had neither in stock, and ended up sending me the newer 36v 12ah battery, which is one that also slides on, like the ones in the previous pics. The motor I got from ebike.com has exactly the same dimensions as the GM, and now I'm reading theat they did indeed get their motors from GM at one time. I finally finished my tadpole and installed the motor. First thing I noticed, was some of the spokes felt very loose. I installed the wheel. Lo and behold, it was so out of true, it seemed like nobody bothered to true it up. After a half hour, I had it perfectly trued up. I hooked everything up, and tested it. It worked fine, but seemed slower than some 400w hub motors I've seen. But it performed quite nicely when I took it for a spin. I only have drum brakes on the front wheel, and no rear brake. I was concerned that at higher speeds, I may need the third brake. I didn't stop quite as quickly as I'd like.
Rather than weld a caliper tab on the frame, I tried the GM ontroller that I had. It has regen braking, which I like for the braking rather than the battery recharge, and reverse, which is a nice plus with a trike. The motor ran even better. It's a bit faster, I guess due to the higher amp controller. And at high speeds, the regen braking really helps. The trike stopped on a dime at full speed.
The wheel being out of true really ticked me off, and now that it seems this is a GM motor, I feel like I've been had. I specifically went to a higher priced kit, thinking the quality was better than the cheapos, like WE's. And this motor looks identical to the GM motor, except for the paint.
Rather than weld a caliper tab on the frame, I tried the GM ontroller that I had. It has regen braking, which I like for the braking rather than the battery recharge, and reverse, which is a nice plus with a trike. The motor ran even better. It's a bit faster, I guess due to the higher amp controller. And at high speeds, the regen braking really helps. The trike stopped on a dime at full speed.
The wheel being out of true really ticked me off, and now that it seems this is a GM motor, I feel like I've been had. I specifically went to a higher priced kit, thinking the quality was better than the cheapos, like WE's. And this motor looks identical to the GM motor, except for the paint.
???
The E-Bikekit and the GM batts are NOT the same .... the boxes contain different contents !!!
a quick update on the EBK pack testing, over the last 3 or so weeks, it has been used heavily by a local customer, 2000 kms + ( 2 deep DOD cycles per day ! ) on an eZee equipped hybrid bike with 700C wheels.
the eZee LiMn battery bit the dust after 1 year of use and had to go back for warranty, i lent him the EBK pack while this was taking place.. should have it back on monday for a health check and update on capacity !
The E-Bikekit and the GM batts are NOT the same .... the boxes contain different contents !!!
a quick update on the EBK pack testing, over the last 3 or so weeks, it has been used heavily by a local customer, 2000 kms + ( 2 deep DOD cycles per day ! ) on an eZee equipped hybrid bike with 700C wheels.
the eZee LiMn battery bit the dust after 1 year of use and had to go back for warranty, i lent him the EBK pack while this was taking place.. should have it back on monday for a health check and update on capacity !
Similar threads
