Ebike shop fire, New York, June 2023, 4 dead

[spinningmagnets]

There have been fires before, almost all of them the result of cheap generic battery packs with cheap generic BMS's, and cheap generic chargers. I don't know what caused this one, at the "HQ Ebike Repair", on Madison St in Chinatown.

What makes this fire noteworthy is that four people died, and it is in New York, so this will definitely be in the national news.

 

[orcasprout]

Oh my gosh!
I was IN that shop 2 months ago as I was doing research for my own eBike repair business.
As I recall there was an entire wall (floor to ceiling) of delivery bike batteries being charged. Homemade plywood and 2x4 shelving with lots of extension cords and spike bars. There must have been at least 200-300 batteries all plugged in.
I walked in and was quickly told to leave.

 

[slaphappygamer]

Wow. This is getting ridiculous. When will people realize that just because our phones have lithium batteries and they never burn DOESNT MEAN that ebike batteries are the same. Ebike batteries are much more powerful than phone batteries. A totally different animal that MUST be respected. It is horrible that people have to die from the lack of care of others. Could stores/shops like this be reported? Maybe that would help?

Here is a link to the story.

4 dead after battery causes fire at New York City e-bike shop that spreads to apartments

Authorities say a fire that started in a New York City e-bike shop spread to upper-floor apartments, killing four people and injuring several others

abcnews.go.com

The fire was reported after midnight. No doubt that most of the hundreds of batteries were left unattended, for over night.

Wait wow, they were even cited and fined for previous visits of the fire department. Total lack of care.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Stupidity cannot police itself.

 

[Comrade]

Ebike batteries are much more powerful than phone batteries. A totally different animal that MUST be respected.

Phone batteries are also single cell. Which makes a big difference as far as long term stability of the design.

As I recall there was an entire wall (floor to ceiling) of delivery bike batteries being charged. Homemade plywood and 2x4 shelving with lots of extension cords and spike bars. There must have been at least 200-300 batteries all plugged in.

People bring their culture and attitudes with them. I've been to China, and just like many other countries with low and even middle income their safety standards are downright primitive by comparison. Shit happens. Life goes on.

 

[nicobie]

It's a damn shame that people have to die before it gets out that charging cheap ass lithium batteries is unsafe if you don't know what you are doing. I wish the FD had shut the business down. Now they will be shutting down shops that are safely run. One of the best things E.S. does is TRY to educate people of the dangers involved. However some people never listen, they think that they know better.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I have an old house made from wood framing, with wood floors, and my wife has decorated the windows with cloth curtains. The entire structure is an attractive pile of fuel for a bonfire.

But...there is a fireplace in the center, lined with bricks. I also noticed that older houses have the garage as a separate building, should the cars or lawnmower catch fire.

I am working towards having a backup battery made from Nissan Leaf cells. I plan to add a separate structure, and for the battery shed to be made from steel.

I currently charge my ebike in the garage (made from wood), but only when I am in the garage. Once the steel shed is in place, I will charge the batteries there.

A wall of ebike batteries on wooden shelves is a disaster, waiting to happen.

PS, I also have a barbecue...made of steel, and located in he back yard.

 

[harrisonpatm]

I have a DIY powerwall of reclaimed laptop cells. It's outside, separated from the house, in material with fireproof treatment added, constantly monitored.

My E-moto is outside, not in an attached garage but outside, and it's never charged overnight, or even unattended. I plug it in to charge and set a timer.

Lithium battery tech is great. Doesn't meant we should turn our backs on it.

 

[999zip999]

Fire I had a fire I bought a bunch of those used defective Makita tool batteries. They caught fire they are probably from Canada and dropped in the water or snow or something and they would spontaneously combust not even under charge. And I had a garage fire.
Dog man had a garage fire from buying a cheap ass battery.
Amber wolf had a fire in his garage.
There's probably a whole list of people here members of es who had fires in the garage.
There have been four fires within three blocks of my house with kids and people's and skateboards that have LiPO batteries.
Fire did you say fire yeah there's fires

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

I read all about the fires you all documented herein {and how one of these was donated} and learned enough to buy this one:

 

[999zip999]

I thought I read somewhere that Luna was having battery problems in the beginning were there any fire related problems they had ?

 

[nicobie]

I too need a powerwall for a backup power source for my house and would be interested in what you guys come up with. Using Leaf cells sounds interesting. Please post your progress. Any and all info will be appreciated.

 

[harrisonpatm]

I too need a powerwall for a backup power source for my house and would be interested in what you guys come up with. Using Leaf cells sounds interesting. Please post your progress. Any and all info will be appreciated.

Head over to secondlifestorage for more detail on that topic, they've been an absolute wealth of info for me. My powerwall is made up of entirely free, discarded laptop cells. Sounds sketchy right, considering the current thread topic? Not when the proper testing and sorting procedures are being following, 6 times over, every step of the way and continuously.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Phone batteries are also single cell. Which makes a big difference as far as long term stability of the design.

True.

With that noted, I am hoping now that Tesla is popularizing cells with a larger format (i.e. 4680) future ebike batteries will be safer. This even though they will still obviously be multi-cell (less cells in pack means less to go wrong).

 

[biphaeboh]

The Australian auto commentator John Cadogan made a video about the dangers of lithium battery fires. The smoke is toxic and the fires are very difficult to put out.

 

[nicobie]

Head over to secondlifestorage

Thanx!

 

[Hillhater]

True.

With that noted, I am hoping now that Tesla is popularizing cells with a larger format (i.e. 4680) future ebike batteries will be safer. This even though they will still obviously be multi-cell (less cells in pack means less to go wrong).

Maybe ,..fewer cells and connections will certainly reduce the risk of failure of connections, …
but a single cell phone battery of 5-10 Wh is a LOT less potential energy than a 100Wh 4680 cell,…let alone a 500-1000Wh ebike pack.
Also most cell phones are charged from a well proven , low power, certified and tested, chargers , unlike many ebikes !

 

[JackFlorey]

I too need a powerwall for a backup power source for my house and would be interested in what you guys come up with. Using Leaf cells sounds interesting. Please post your progress. Any and all info will be appreciated.

I would suggest that LFP batteries are getting so cheap that it's not worth the additional work/risk to use secondhand batteries unless you know exactly what you're doing. They are now well under $300/kwhr.

 

[neptronix]

Oh my gosh!
I was IN that shop 2 months ago as I was doing research for my own eBike repair business.
As I recall there was an entire wall (floor to ceiling) of delivery bike batteries being charged. Homemade plywood and 2x4 shelving with lots of extension cords and spike bars. There must have been at least 200-300 batteries all plugged in.
I walked in and was quickly told to leave.

This sort of thing should be totally illegal, even if the batteries were not to blame, the electrical system could have been overloaded from this and been the actual cause of the fire itself.

Do you think you got the boot because you looked like you were rooting around doing research on a competitor, or that they had something big to hide from the fire department..

 

[orcasprout]

I think I got the boot cuz I stuck out like a sore thumb. I was not the typical clientele.

I walked in and the place was crowded (wall of batteries and other piles of bikes and parts, not a "shop" for sure). Two guys (delivery workers?) looked briefly up at me then went back to their phones. I started talking to a third guy about who I was, he didn't understand me. At that moment, a forth guy walked in pushing a bike who stopped, looked at me, turned to the third guy and they exchanged a few brief phrases (that I didn't understand). I turned to guy #4 and started to explain myself and he waved me out the door.

This had the appearance of an operation at the economic margin.

I have batteries on a wheeled cart near the (attached) garage door but I'm moving all of 'em outside to some sort of container. Still thinking about what that should be.

 

[2old]

Amazon has a number of Lithium battery bags that are stated to be fire and explosion proof. Almost without question these are manufactured in China, and probably not tested in any manner. Does anyone know of a reputable supplier of these bags (if one exists). Right now I'm trusting ammo cans. I didn't start a separate thread, but that's a consideration.

 

[neptronix]

Lipo Bags & Covers

Hobbyking has some battery boxes/bags made for lipos. No idea on the testing. We'll have to maybe collectively sacrifice one in the name of the forum..

 

[lnanek]

The fiberglass bags are pretty useless in tests:

Need a metal box, basically:

 

[neptronix]

That ammo can got up to 1300F with about 1/7th of what's in our batteries.

That bat-safe was pretty impressive!

 

[tomjasz]

Amazon has a number of Lithium battery bags that are stated to be fire and explosion proof. Almost without question these are manufactured in China, and probably not tested in any manner. Does anyone know of a reputable supplier of these bags (if one exists). Right now I'm trusting ammo cans. I didn't start a separate thread, but that's a consideration.

there are some ceramic fiber cases specially designed for battery packs. i drilled wire ports and lined my ammo can with ceramic blankets. i’m comfortable.