ebikes - any standards at all?

[cellsafemode]

i think it's a given currently that the only ebikes using shared components are diy or questionable unbranded commuter bikes. and besides speed, these bikes generally aren't designed to take punishment.

what do you think the chances are that we get to some set of standards for internal mounting locations for components at least. or are we destined for a dystopian vendor lock-in, where nothing but the custom oem parts fit unless you start bolting on things externally?

feels like there is just no incentive for companies to standardize anything related to the e part of ebikes and indeed, the law seems to enforce treating all the components as 1 indivisible item.


side question: has anyone found a workable off road capable frame that can house diy components without looking like the electronic parts are an afterthought?

 

[neptronix]

Sorry, i got no sunshine for you!

More likely to go in the locked down direction than become freer over time.
The more people chose to buy factory prebuilt without questions instead of DIY-ing it, the worse it will get.

 

[amberwolf]

The way standards happen is if there is a central enforcing body that all manufacturers *have* to obey, when it isn't any more profitable to follow one version of someone's standard than another version of someone else's, in any of the stages from parts design to parts manufacturing all the way up thru stages to final bikes or systems. Or when there is already some form of standard that if they don't use it they'll lose money. ****

When it's cheaper for a company to use something that already exists, and they won't lose money because someone else is also using it (losing sales to them) then that's what happens.

Otherwise they'll just use the cheapest thing that barely does the job that they can buy easily quickly and cheaply, and sold most quickly for the most money, earning them the most short-term profit they can get.

When a company is designing a system that they have to support, they're quite likely to use things deliberately incompatible with anything else (including their own previous designs) to simplify support options and decrease costs (by ensuring end-users can't use someone elses stuff on there and potentially cause problems with it), and to maximize post-sale profits from selling repair and upgrade parts.


****For example, a controller manufacturer is highly likely to make 3-phase brushless motor controllers, not four, five, or ten phase, because most of the market of motors that need controllers is this type, and most of the software and hardware they can build controllers around is of this type.

Another example: large-EV charging plugs--if every vehicle manufacturer used a different plug, that manufacturer would have to build their *own* charging infrastructure everywhere they wanted to sell their vehicles. That did begin to happen, originally, and then standards developed because infrastructure is just far too expensive to build and maintain. If they all use the same plug, then *anyone* can build the infrastruture and maintain it (and reap profits from it), so while they make less money on the charging end, they can at least sell their vehicles everywhere, and that's much more profitable.

Another example: in the case of ebikes, virtually all of them use some form of charger that has a wall-side cable using an IEC and/or NEMA / etc standard for the country they're sold in, and most often those cables aren't fixed to the charger so they don't have to make different charger versions, they just make one and then make different cables.


Whenever standards are enacted by laws, then they stifle innovation and prevent usage of technology for most of the things it's capable of that people actually need to use it for. (a simple example is ebike limitations in general--there isn't actually a reason or need to limit power, etc for any of these things, or to define many of the mechanical specifics of bicycles that many legal systems do. These limitations prevent quite a few usages and designs from being legally used (powered or unpowered) for no good reason other than that some bureaucratic group didn't have the foresight to think of them, or leave room for other ideas than whatever they had in mind.

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding the frame question:

You'd need to define what you need, specifically, and what your limitations are, before any frames could be recommended.

For instance, if you are looking for soemthing that completely encloses and hides all e-stuff on the bike, or just looking for something that integrates their appearance into the design, or....??

There are many frames that are called "offroad" or are used in that way...most of them hide most of the e-stuff, but look like various shapes of boxes on wheels. Most of them are made of the cheapest metal they can get in the cheapest way they could make them, and if "offroad" means hard use, aren't likely to be suitable for that task for very long. (neither are most other types and shapes of frames).

I recommend that you sit down and define your entire usage scenario, including speed, acceleration, terrain, weight, weather, etc. Then list all of your "must haves" and "can't haves", in order of priority. Then you can start looking for parts or systems that meet as many of these things as possible (it's highly unlikely you'll get *everything* you want, unless you DIY things to correct this).

 

[cellsafemode]

it seems easier to start with an ebike and gut it and replace with diy parts since I'd want the controller and battery inside the bike frame vs set between the triangle of the frame or on the outside. since you only get those kind of frames on ebikes. unfortunately it seems unlikely I'd be able to find diy parts that can fit anything optimized to be light. luckily i like fat tire bikes... and light is 60lbs.

 

[amberwolf]

Ah. Then there's not much we can do to help.

 

[DaLanMan]

After reading through the epic saga of Amberwolf's trike...

Again, I am no expert in welding (or a lot of other things) but I have hired guys who knew what they were doing fairly often.

I would think that the best start would be buy a good solid bike frame (I have 2 I picked up from a junk guy that were stripped, I think I paid like $20 for the pair, (buddy that is a mt bike freak chose them from the 80 or so the guy had so I can't off the top remember models I can look it up if ya want) In any case, they are gonna be transformanated into something else through the magic of a cutting torch, an expert welder, a case of beer and probably upgrading the household wifi, into mystical levels of awesomeness.

I think it would be easier to cut out a frame unit, and replace it with a hollow square tube than it would be to try and make sure you got the frame design to the right angles etc. I imagine for some the opposite would be true, but I always assume on the dumb guy side of things, hard to go wrong if you assume other people are not mental giants.

 

[2old]

When you start "hiding" components you're faced with other considerations like controllers that overheat because they aren't cooled effectively or difficulties in elucidating problems because all the wires are internal. My Haibike, which is used very infrequently because a BBS02 DIY is more fun, had its on/off switch go kaput and it was necessary to trace the wire through the frame to the motor/controller area to diagnose (for me). Maybe start with a system with the motor/controller in the same wheel, although not for me.

 

[Chalo]

side question: has anyone found a workable off road capable frame that can house diy components without looking like the electronic parts are an afterthought?

Hiding the electrics of an electric bike makes no more sense than hiding the mechanical parts of a pushbike. In either case, the idea appeals to technically ignorant folks who don't do their own work and who (like car people) have a childish aversion to seeing the components their vehicle can't function without.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Hiding the electrics of an electric bike makes no more sense than hiding the mechanical parts of a pushbike. In either case, the idea appeals to technically ignorant folks who don't do their own work and who (like car people) have a childish aversion to seeing the components their vehicle can't function without.

I actually like leaning into the exposed electrical components of my builds. Picking out nice-looking wire sheathing, 3d printed protection for exposed parts, partially transparent battery cases. It's an electric vehicle and I want people to know it, dammit!

 

[999zip999]

Well let's start here how tall are you how much you weigh would you like a step through euro bike. if you have a bad back or trouble throwing your leg every time over the seat.

What type of terrain will you be riding what's your steepest hill how long is it ?
How much baggage will you be carrying it are you going to the grocery store do you want one of those frames that are stretched out with a 20-in tire in the rear. Or maybe 24 in the rear depends what you're talking about.
Are you going to use it for school where you have to lock it up outside and go to class meaning locking up in the same spot as a creature habit everyday to you're done with your class ?
Do you want it for off-road or just trails or all street riding where do you live this will tell us about what laws you need to obey meaning I live in Southern California at the south end of Orange county we get away with a lot down here if you're in New York City they might tighten down on you a bit. They don't like hot rodded bikes in Europe
Ect.
How much money do you have to spend oh how fast do you want to go ?
I see you live in California I have a few extra bikes in my garage maybe you might find one better fit your needs cheap.

 

[cellsafemode]

Hiding the electrics of an electric bike makes no more sense than hiding the mechanical parts of a pushbike. In either case, the idea appeals to technically ignorant folks who don't do their own work and who (like car people) have a childish aversion to seeing the components their vehicle can't function without.

hiding it is mostly to avoid it looking ugly. I'd rather not ride around on something that screams: 'this isn't supposed to exist this way and i have no fabrication ability'. the other reason I'd want everything hidden and internal is because it's just more secure and safer that way. simpler to make water and weather and impact resistant. I'd want it to take some off road jumps and drops and filling the triangle of the bike just feels like it would make the bike top heavy as well as attract all the karens wherever it's driven, questioning the legality, calling cops etc..

since i don't have the machinery or desire to form my own aluminium or cf bike frame, I'm aiming for premade options. i was wondering if there was any experience working with any particular frames and have been successful in replacing factory stuff with various diy off the shelf parts. without resorting to attaching things to the external surface.

my current guess is frames with hub motors but what looks like mid drive motor provisions, would be the best option... since that's where the controllers go, so there is lots of room for a replacement off the shelf part. the battery would probably be the biggest problem since every bike frame seems to have a custom battery enclosure. but maybe there is some commonality I'm not aware of that would make that easier to work around.

 

[cellsafemode]

Well let's start here how tall are you how much you weigh would you like a step through euro bike. if you have a bad back or trouble throwing your leg every time over the seat.

What type of terrain will you be riding what's your steepest hill how long is it ?
How much baggage will you be carrying it are you going to the grocery store do you want one of those frames that are stretched out with a 20-in tire in the rear. Or maybe 24 in the rear depends what you're talking about.
Are you going to use it for school where you have to lock it up outside and go to class meaning locking up in the same spot as a creature habit everyday to you're done with your class ?
Do you want it for off-road or just trails or all street riding where do you live this will tell us about what laws you need to obey meaning I live in Southern California at the south end of Orange county we get away with a lot down here if you're in New York City they might tighten down on you a bit. They don't like hot rodded bikes in Europe
Ect.
How much money do you have to spend oh how fast do you want to go ?
I see you live in California I have a few extra bikes in my garage maybe you might find one better fit your needs cheap.

i like the look of 26" fat 4" tires. 6ft, 170-180lbs and no physical issues. i have a cobra pro and xpeak on order. wife has an xpeak and a zebra on order. I'm leaning towards my xpeak being the modded bike because I'm not sure how well my vesc (tronic 250) will play with a mid drive torque sensing setup. but if my bikes turn out to not lend itself to modding ..i would be open to either sourcing new programmable parts that can or starting with a frame that is just more flexible with supporting these off the shelf parts.


ideally I'm only concerned with hitting 30mph but also able to climb hills like a mountain bike (or as good as a hub can get). the interest with changing the controller is less about reaching some high speed/power and more about having full control. if i want to put a low capacity but higher voltage battery in, then i want to be able to and not be artificially limited in ways i don't choose. if i put it a high capacity but lower voltage battery, i want it to work with that too without flinching. if i want to add sensors and features i want to be able to. even if that means having to supplement the controller with some teensy sbc or such. coding that stuff would be fun. being able to keep up with advancing electronics and software instead of stuck with the support and code it shipped from the factory with. that's really my main goal.

maybe if i get a motorcycle license I'll switch focus to speed and performance that's well into moped+ territory. i don't want to be so obvious that i definitely could only use something off road. but i think if i go that route, I'd just look at something in the suron form factor or I'm going to want to do a reverse trike type of vehicle.

 

[Chalo]

hiding it is mostly to avoid it looking ugly. I'd rather not ride around on something that screams: 'this isn't supposed to exist this way and i have no fabrication ability'.

So, which of the below says "I have no fabrication ability"?

 

[lnanek]

Doesn't that first pic have a super hot exhaust you would burn your leg on occasionally?

My crappy Honda 250cc gas scooter may look dorky, but at least it has a plastic shield around the exhaust bolted on with rubber insulating washers.

If I was stuck riding the former and had fabrication ability, I'd surely add some rider/passenger protection to the exhaust.

 

[neptronix]

Aesthetics are very subjective.

 

[Chalo]

My point is that visible components don't suggest incompetence. More often the opposite; most of us are not feckless consumer-motorists.

Personally I think the Honda Pacific Coast looks just fine. But I wouldn't own one, or want to work on one. Same goes for a Specialized Turbo Levo or Lemond e-bike.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Personally I think the Honda Pacific Coast looks just fine. But I wouldn't own one, or want to work on one

Apparently they're a pain to work on anyway

 

[cellsafemode]

So, which of the below says "I have no fabrication ability"?

the picture of a bike (not a motorcycle... which has an entirely different aesthetic) frame with stuff bolted on to it instead of looking like it was meant to have the parts I'm adding would suggest a lack of fabrication skills or that it would have taken more effort than it's worth so i didn't bother. I'm not aiming to build something like that.

I'm not really interested in building an ebike to just have an ebike. it's obvious those can be made easily by just about anyone these days. I'm interested in building something for myself that does what i want and has the flexibility to be programmed and upgraded over time while looking like it was designed to be what it is. i never stated i don't think bikes built other ways are bad or inferior or don't have their place. I'm just not interested in making one like that because i find them unappealing visually and I'm not forced to accept that for my own projects. nobody is saying that's an objective statement that says anything about what someone else is aiming for.

i have aesthetic requirements based on what my impression is of what I'm looking at as well as design considerations that I'm not confident externally mounted parts could meet. housing the parts within the frame meets my demands.

coming to the conclusion that making something 'clean' communicates a lack of technical proficiency is kind of weird, considering it requires more to do something within restrictions than not. but either way it's not like I'm going to go 'yea, you're right, i should be more concerned that everyone knows i built this myself instead of what i originally was going with'. so...

 

[99t4]

I'd want it to take some off road jumps and drops and filling the triangle of the bike just feels like it would make the bike top heavy...

Where would you want the extra weight concentrated and why?

 

[cellsafemode]

Where would you want the extra weight concentrated and why?

as low as possible or to counter added weight caused by say, a rear wheel motor. basically I'd want something balanced front to rear so it's still possible to easily control the nose of the bike.. and I'd want the center of gravity to be around my feet or wherever the pivot point is. leaning to the low side vs high though for stability.


technically I'm not keen on designing and building a frame using equipment i don't have to make that look nice. so I'm limited to what has been made. most bikes have batteries in the downtube and motor at the peddle or rear wheel. with little to no provisions to put things elsewhere without attaching things externally. so i don't really suspect my build will differ in that area. I'd consider it a positive point if there is nothing to tell you i did anything at all to it from the outside. i was only really interested if anyone had experience working with such frames and knew of some that were easy to support off the shelf swaps and mods or experience of which parts readily fit certain frames. avoid a bit of trial and error if possible.

 

[Papa]

hiding it is mostly to avoid it looking ugly. I'd rather not ride around on something that screams: 'this isn't supposed to exist this way and i have no fabrication ability'.

Gotcha... I hear 'exposed' parts in 'fornia is consider indecent exposure?

 

[JackFlorey]

what do you think the chances are that we get to some set of standards for internal mounting locations for components at least. or are we destined for a dystopian vendor lock-in, where nothing but the custom oem parts fit unless you start bolting on things externally?

This would have to happen externally at first via an open source standards body. You could standardize things like battery voltages, connectors, torque bar mounting locations, braze-ons for battery mounts etc. Grin has made a bit of a start on this by having standard-ish connectors for their products.

You could start an effort like this!

 

[99t4]

.. and I'd want the center of gravity to be around my feet or wherever the pivot point is. leaning to the low side vs high though for stability.

Might not be a good thing. Two-wheel bicycle (single-track vehicles) handling physics are different than automobiles, for example. We tend to think lower weight mass is always better on bicycles (and motorcycles) but in reality might be different.

Some prototype motorcycles were tested several years ago that were redesigned to place the weight mass lower; results were disappointing.

Suggest you experiment with securing dummy weights to the bike at different locations each time and go for some rides in your planned terrain. Compare the results.

Some reading material for you:

Bicycle and motorcycle dynamics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bicycle, Scooter and Motorcycle Dynamics

Reading through this article on two wheel vehicle dynamics I found some things that folks here might be interested in. Some of them are counter-intuitive at least to the first order. Before commenting in this thread please read the article which will be linked at the end of this post. Then...

endless-sphere.com

Question about center of gravity and stable handling @speeds

I used this picture as the end all be all for my ebike designs when deciding where to put my batteries. But I read something in a thread that piqued my interest they other day. Someone said that having the weight higher on the frame actually makes it more stable at speeds, while having the...

endless-sphere.com

 

[calab]

Here are some good idea's to work from

Unusual Ebike Pack Mounting Solutions

Most people who decide that they want to buy a kit and assemble it onto an existing bicycle frame? They have to figure out two major decisions. Will the kit I want…fit onto the frame I want? …

www.electricbike.com