Electric boost motor for Mazda RX8

JimV8

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Thinking of adding a motor to the front shaft of an RX8 to add torque to the anemic low end power of the rotary. The engine redlines at 9000 rpm so I need an electric motor to turn those revs too and goal will be to use the engine deceleration to regenerate a supercapacitor system Overall I expect the system to result in a significant reduction in fuel consumption while making a great engine even better. Anyway nothing will happen until next June at the earliest as I’m in hibernation with alot of time to contemplate projects.
 
Why the capacitors? I would send the regen to the battery.
I’m looking for rapid charge and discharge over many cycles. The purpose of the exercise is to enhance the power of the rotary engine rather than operating the car on battery only. The best comparison would be like accelerating down a steep hill and in regen the slowing thats felt by trying to coast up a steep hill.
 
This type of conversion is not going to be simple ,quick, or cheap.
usinf capacitors just jack up the complications (if at all possible ?) of a system that will challenge most diy car types.
the somplest would be to use an “Altermotor” type system as used by GM , Audi, etc,..but that would limit you to only 15-20 kW of boost,..and isuspect you want more ?
Maybe consider using a Lexus 450H, rear transaxle/ motor drive,..but they are also complex to reconfigure electrically …and of course it means replacing the entire Mazda rear axle.…Like i said,… it isnt going to be simple.
 
Some thoughts:

Keep in mind that supercaps can only use a tiny portion of their avalable energy capacity, because it is distributed across the entire 0v to max volt range of the cap, while a battery can use it's entire available energy capacity because it is distributed across *just* the working portion of the voltage range of the battery.

So...adding the same volume/mass of battery to the traction pack will get you more in both regen capability and traction capability than the caps will, if you are not using cells incapable of the necessary charge rates, especially if you are using the cells in a way that never charges them to full with the normal charging process, leaving some "room" for the regen charge.

For instance, if you use a "100v" system, the typical voltage range a motor controller requires is about 88v to 118v.

A "100V" battery's usable range is within that, so "all" of the available energy the have is available to the controller and motor. They start with energy at the 88v level, when "empty". (really they have some energy below this, but it is very little vs the rest of the capacity, and is less stressful on them to not use it)

The supercaps (presuming 130V+ capable so they won't be damaged by voltage spikes) usable range is 0v to the system max voltage (118v in this case). They still have to have a lot of energy placed into them to get them up to the system range, but the system cannot use any of that energy, below the 88v level. It can only access the energy between 88v and 118v, in this example.

Motor:

Unless you need engine enhancement / braking near the full RPM, you don't need a motor that can do that RPM, if it has a clutch between the motor and engine drivetrain.

Or you can use a gear reduction between the motor and the drivetrain so that it reduced the engine RPM fed to the motor in braking and increases the motor RPM fed to the engine during traction. The gear reduction can be as simple as the belt or chain that transfers the power to the engine drivetrain, by not having equal sprocket sizes, using smaller on the engine side and larger on the motor side, by whatever ratio you need the RPM to be changed.

For brushless motors, a high-RPM inrunner motor must be designed with IPM (not SPM) or else must have the magnets secured very well (like some of the FX series of motors that were wound with kevlar around them).

An outrunner motor's magnets will be held against the casing by the forces involved, so don't need special mountings/etc. But the outrunner's casing spins, so has to be mounted by the non-spinning portion of the core that sticks out for this purpose, and everything near the motor must be secured so it cannot touch the motor in operation.

Brushed motors are not usually suitable for high RPMs unless they were specifically designed for that, as the commutator can actually explode from the forces (sometimes called grenading).



You'll probalby want a brushless motor, and run it with an FOC controller, because those will give you variable regen control, whereas many other controllers only have on/off control of a preset level, which is very hard on all of the mechanincal components between the motor and the wheel if you need much regen braking force.



BTW, there are existing systems (Buick?) that use a motor in the alternator belt system to do what you want to do. If you can get a complete system from the scrapyard it might make your project simpler.


The big catch is space--the Mazdas I've seen under the hood (RX7) have very little space in there, and don't have anywhere you could put any of this stuff. If yours is like that, you'd have to put this stuff into the "passenger' area and run it down thru the floorboards to the driveshaft instead of the engine. That would also be easier on the engine/transmission, as it wouldn't have to handle the braking forces, or the drive forces if the transmission clutch doesn't allow backfeeding of wheel forces up into the engine.
 
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Thinking of adding a motor to the front shaft of an RX8 to add torque to the anemic low end power of the rotary....
I have heaps of respect for the Wankel. I stuffed a 12A into a 1973 Pinto (damn foolish idea), then a few years later we stuffed another 12A into a MGB roadster (quite the opposite... a genuine hoot). As you obviously realize, they are known to be excessively thirsty, and are 'smoggy doggies'. But when you de-smog and tweak'em... they are easily capable of serious HP/LB.

However, in my personal opinion, butchering a 3000 pound car by adding even more weight, seems counter productive to me. I would strongly suggest that you either leave-well-enough-alone and enjoy your classic as is..... or gut the Mazda's shell and build an EV from scratch. JMHO
 
Yes, i’m beginning lean that way. Fwiw the conversation here took me to a 2020 thread in this forum discussing this exact same topic which delved into the GM E assist. That BTW looks like a practical way to get an off the shelf system to do what I was thinking.
 
Jim,..
Funny... Your comment had me reminiscing. Way back when, one of my kinkiest plans was to stuff a 13b into a Maxton Rollerskate (a DIY kit car). Now, 25 years later... a perfect EV platform...



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I’m liking the EAssist more all the time. The RX8 Alternator is fitted high on the engine and first glance says the slightly larger Alt-motor will physically fit. That weighs 16 lbs more than the alternator so not an issue there and Ebay has one at $375 The Lithium pack weighs 65lbs and is very compact and not bad price at about 800-1200 and the cells are servicable. What I really like is the 79 Lb/ft of torque available which is a significant increase of grunt for the rotary.
I learned from my LS swap into the Porsche 968 roller that a major mod like that is a problem when it comes to getting registered and insured. I think a mild hybrid that doesnt alter the existing platform should be a lot easier in that regard.
 
Keep in mind that supercaps can only use a tiny portion of their avalable energy capacity, because it is distributed across the entire 0v to max volt range of the cap, while a battery can use it's entire available energy capacity because it is distributed across *just* the working portion of the voltage range of the battery.
Let's do the math on that. Take a motor controller that will handle a 48V battery, which means a range of 40-60 volts for a narrow voltage range controller. A 100% charged 60V 100 farad capacitor contains 50 watt-hours. At 40 volts it contains 22 watt-hours. So you get more than half the available energy even with that narrow voltage range.
 
Given that seeing 100k miles out of a rotary is rare, why not electrify the car?

Supercaps are eye bleedingly expensive and heavy versus batteries, usually containing less energy than a lead acid battery; so visualize hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds of supercaps to have adequate energy.

Consider instead, a lithium pack @ about 10-20x the energy density per lb, and a fraction of the cost, and a fraction of the space.
 
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