EM150SP & QS Mid Drive Motor Issue

[christianalexzappa]

Noob here, trying to troubleshoot some odd behavior with my bike which has progressively worsened.

The Bike (Fonz NKD, made in Australia by a small scoter/naked bike brand) runs a EM150SP & QS Mid Drive Motor 3000w paired to a 72v 85ah Battery.

They are looking into it, but they are based in Sydney and I'm not so their only able to go off evidence provided by me and their service partner.

In modes 2 & 3 (mid and high), a 86kmph-89kmph and then again in the mid to high 90s I get some momentary power loss, sometimes aggressive dipping amps on the DKD display low and other times just little blips (like the brakes haves been tapped, BTW not the brakes).

Weirdly, full throttle seems to be fine, and it's doesn't seem to be "load" dependent, I've had a local mechanic take it for a ride (a much trimmer guy than me). It can also happen going downhill (but doesn't discriminate on incline).

I purchased a debugging usb cable, attached are some screenshots, no fault codes presents. But wondering if there is anything glaringly obvious.

 

[christianalexzappa]

Noob here, trying to troubleshoot some odd behavior with my bike which has progressively worsened.

The Bike (Fonz NKD, made in Australia by a small scoter/naked bike brand) runs a EM150SP & QS Mid Drive Motor 3000w paired to a 72v 85ah Battery.

They are looking into it, but they are based in Sydney and I'm not so their only able to go off evidence provided by me and their service partner.

In modes 2 & 3 (mid and high), a 86kmph-89kmph and then again in the mid to high 90s I get some momentary power loss, sometimes aggressive dipping amps on the DKD display low and other times just little blips (like the brakes haves been tapped, BTW not the brakes).

Weirdly, full throttle seems to be fine, and it's doesn't seem to be "load" dependent, I've had a local mechanic take it for a ride (a much trimmer guy than me). It can also happen going downhill (but doesn't discriminate on incline).

I purchased a debugging usb cable, attached are some screenshots, no fault codes presents. But wondering if there is anything glaringly obvious with how things have been programmed?

 

[Paulflieg]

HDC, why? What is your engine speed? Max?

 

[christianalexzappa]

HDC, why? What is your engine speed? Max?

How do you mean? As in why is it enabled?

 

[Paulflieg]

It limits engine RPM, is that what you want? Yes? , then it's good.

 

[christianalexzappa]

It limits engine RPM, is that what you want? Yes? , then it's good.

I was told it's the peak RPM of the motor and if you disable it it could cause issues?

 

[j bjork]

The flux weakening for mid and high is very high set, I think they should be 3000, maybe up to 4000.
Other than that I think the busbar and sport current are rather conservative, maybe the battery is a bit weak so they dont want to load it to hard.
The rpm limit is a little low as previosly mentioned, maybe to be on the safe side. I think up to 8000 is ok on the motor, but can be risky for the controller if it looses sync.
There is a long thread where you can read about the controller, start from the beginning as it is a newer fw in the later part of the tread that is different from yours.

 

[j bjork]

Here is the votol thread:

Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Hallo Leute, ich finde eine Arbeitskonfiguration für den Surron-Motor auf dem Votol-Controller, kein Messgerät 100, 150 oder jemals 200. Nur um nach Parametern des Motors zu suchen, danke. Hi, Welche SW-Version? Welcher Controller? Welche Batterie (Spannung)

endless-sphere.com

I think the flux weakening compensation is a little low, I think you can run 80-100.
But the settings I see as really wrong in your settings is the mid and high flux weakening.

 

[glennb]

Fault’s occurring at high RPM?

Maybe hall signal getting messed up.

See if it still occurs with HDC to 5000.

 

[christianalexzappa]

Here is the votol thread:

Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Hallo Leute, ich finde eine Arbeitskonfiguration für den Surron-Motor auf dem Votol-Controller, kein Messgerät 100, 150 oder jemals 200. Nur um nach Parametern des Motors zu suchen, danke. Hi, Welche SW-Version? Welcher Controller? Welche Batterie (Spannung)

endless-sphere.com

I think the flux weakening compensation is a little low, I think you can run 80-100.
But the settings I see as really wrong in your settings is the mid and high flux weakening.

Thanks for the comment J Bjork, I ended up getting the defaults from SIAEcoSys, they told me to run the following for the motor/controller combo (see screenshot below). You say to run the RPM limit higher, the Max for the motor is 6400 peak, won't overclocking cause potential issue?


I actually found Rate of Rise and Rate of Decline on Page 1 were very different to what SIAEcoSys recommend, setting it to the recommended values have pretty much fixed the issue, i get slight millisecond taps every now and then, so not sure if this has fixed it or just masked the issue.

 

[christianalexzappa]

Fault’s occurring at high RPM?

Maybe hall signal getting messed up.

See if it still occurs with HDC to 5000.

Thanks for the comment, I'll try dropping back to 5000, what will this do (other than the obvious of limiting Max RPM).

I actually found Rate of Rise and Rate of Decline on Page 1 were very different to what SIAEcoSys recommended when I reached out to them, setting it to the recommended values have pretty much fixed the issue, i get slight millisecond taps every now and then, so not sure if this has fixed it or just masked the issue.

 

[glennb]

The faster the switching rate (rpm), the shorter the off time in-between pulses and the harder it is for a signal receiver to distinguish them. The pulses effectively blur into each other.

Longer cable runs exacerbate the blurring. Signal cables should be short as possible, and preferably twisted and shielded.

Phase lines running parallel in close proximity to signal wires is far from ideal. If need be, you can separate the phase and hall lines exiting the motor and put distance between them.

Reducing the rpm will increase the off time between pulses, making it easier for the receiver. In your case it’d just be to test. If the controller performs correctly at reduced RPM, you might consider separating the hall/phase lines, then bumping the RPMback afterward.

As to rise and decline … the full operating range should be available to you. I doubt those settings are the root cause.

 

[christianalexzappa]

The faster the switching rate (rpm), the shorter the off time in-between pulses and the harder it is for a signal receiver to distinguish them. The pulses effectively blur into each other.

Longer cable runs exacerbate the blurring. Signal cables should be short as possible, and preferably twisted and shielded.

Phase lines running parallel in close proximity to signal wires is far from ideal. If need be, you can separate the phase and hall lines exiting the motor and put distance between them.

Reducing the rpm will increase the off time between pulses, making it easier for the receiver. In your case it’d just be to test. If the controller performs correctly at reduced RPM, you might consider separating the hall/phase lines, then bumping the RPMback afterward.

As to rise and decline … the full operating range should be available to you. I doubt those settings are the root cause.

Thanks Glennb

Any reason why adjusting the Rate of Rise and Decline has minimised things? Putting those values back the issue returns, setting them to what SIA suggested drastically minimises the issue.

 

[j bjork]

Do they really recommend these field weakening settings?

 

[glennb]

Thanks Glennb

Any reason why adjusting the Rate of Rise and Decline has minimised things? Putting those values back the issue returns, setting them to what SIA suggested drastically minimises the issue.

I’ve had no issue with utilising the full throttle settings range. It could be related to interference from phase wires, or bug, or hardware limitation. Either way, it’s an unforeseen and unintended interaction. You’d need to do more testing to diagnose it. Start with a clean slate. Leave every port empty and turn off field weakening and soft start, then tinker with throttle settings. The field weakening in particular is taxing memory and processing power resources.

I presume you’ve replicated this issue in the stand with wheel in the air. Bypass the bms as well if you can. Try a different throttle, etc.

I wouldn’t be satisfied with “minimised”, but if you are then you can obviously leave it be and put it down to “just one of those things”.

 

[christianalexzappa]

Do they really recommend these field weakening settings?

Yeap the config file they supplied which is what is in the screenshot I posted yesterday

 

[christianalexzappa]

I’ve had no issue with utilising the full throttle settings range. It could be related to interference from phase wires, or bug, or hardware limitation. Either way, it’s an unforeseen and unintended interaction. You’d need to do more testing to diagnose it. Start with a clean slate. Leave every port empty and turn off field weakening and soft start, then tinker with throttle settings. The field weakening in particular is taxing memory and processing power resources.

I presume you’ve replicated this issue in the stand with wheel in the air. Bypass the bms as well if you can. Try a different throttle, etc.

I wouldn’t be satisfied with “minimised”, but if you are then you can obviously leave it be and put it down to “just one of those things”

How do you turn off field weakening?

Today I checked the routing of the hall cable from the motor, and as a precaution I rerouted these far away from everything else. I also tried your recommendation of lowering the RPM to 5000, this had no impact and the issue was still there.

My original thought was throttle related, if I was to buy a replacement, any you recommend, or should I just get the same model?

 

[christianalexzappa]

Forgot to upload some videos. Here is the wild fluctuations that I was experiencing, I don’t get these since adjust rate of rise and decline, I still get little “taps” but on the meter I only see little drops of a bar or 2. Videos in google photos album: Power Issue

 

[larsb]

Strange occurence but it looks a bit like speed limiting on my votol 150, the regulation of the motor at speed limit was not the best on my (old) controller. If it is this then maybe the rise and decline parameter smooths out this type of control. Did you try removing all limits like suggested? Clean slate testing is always nice.

 

[christianalexzappa]

Strange occurence but it looks a bit like speed limiting on my votol 150, the regulation of the motor at speed limit was not the best on my (old) controller. If it is this then maybe the rise and decline parameter smooths out this type of control. Did you try removing all limits like suggested? Clean slate testing is always nice.

Hey Larsb. How do I remove limits? Do I set values to zero or high numbers? Which things would I change to remove limits?

 

[larsb]

set all speed limits to 100%
tick out hdc, soft start, try
could be settings on the different screens that might make sense to change too.

 

[glennb]

How do you turn off field weakening?

Today I checked the routing of the hall cable from the motor, and as a precaution I rerouted these far away from everything else. I also tried your recommendation of lowering the RPM to 5000, this had no impact and the issue was still there.

My original thought was throttle related, if I was to buy a replacement, any you recommend, or should I just get the same model?

AFAIK field weakening is disabled in “low speed”, so you can set default to “low” and disable any ports that you use for speed mode switching.

My preference is cable-actuated throttles with mechanical converter mounted beside the controller …

… but throttle upgrades are a distraction for the moment. If there’s a warrantee claim to be made you’ll need to have isolated the problem to the controller. Without a second motor to test, that’s not exactly possible, but the throttle bit is easy.

To verify a properly functioning throttle you need a 5v supply. It needn’t match the controller 5v rail precisely, any regulated 5-5.5v supply is adequate. I use wall socket phone charger type PSUs. You just cut the plug off, peel back the outside insulation and shielding foil to expose a few centimetres of the red and white wires, and strip a centimetre of insulation off each of these. Connect these to your throttle 5v and ground wires (red to red, white to black). With multimeter in voltage measuring mode and connected black to black, and red to (typically) green, it’ll be obvious if your throttle’s functioning smoothly in the correct range when you use it. No need to remove the throttle terminals or crimp or solder anything, just ensure there’s adequate contact pressure at all terminations - gently torqued screw terminals are good, but alligator clips on your multimeter will suffice.

 

[j bjork]

Strange occurence but it looks a bit like speed limiting on my votol 150, the regulation of the motor at speed limit was not the best on my (old) controller. If it is this then maybe the rise and decline parameter smooths out this type of control. Did you try removing all limits like suggested? Clean slate testing is always nice.

You dont think 12000 in field weakening has anything to do with it?

 

[larsb]

I don’t know but that’s a super high value! I wonder if they changed so that the values from old controllers cannot be compared though.

I think it could be a regulation issue, PID parameters that are not tuned for the function. The rise/decline parameter would directly affect this so that fits.
I wonder what happens at that load and rpm to cause the issue, if it is that the motor is almost idling at field weakening speed then it could be the field weakening control that’s involved.

 

[j bjork]

I don’t know but that’s a super high value! I wonder if they changed so that the values from old controllers cannot be compared though.

The thing is that this is an old controller (sw 2.32, hw 1.13), on the newer ones with sw 2.33 it means something else as you say.