Ev west battery Vespa build question

[Rsmyre]

Hello! I have been lurking in the forum for a while trying to gather knowledge for my up coming build and reading up on batteries and motors. There is a ton of knowledge here! Thank you to everyone here that is sharing. I’m looking at a battery that EV West and some sellers on eBay offer. It’s the Samsung INR lithium ion 20r. It seems to good to be true. 48v 505wh at $300 for a pair. What am I missing in the numbers? I want to use a QS 12” 5000w hub. Can these be wired in series to get 96v? I have a ton more questions but I will just start with these. Here’s a link to the battery

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=488&osCsid=7c33b6aec04c393c4c417b5fc9014ca2

 

[pwd]

some things I see:

there is no BMS included with each module - extra cost
Samsung 20R are a pretty old cell and are lower energy dense cells but decent power density - there are much better cells out there for your application

If you are planning on a Vespa build and utilizing the potential of a QS 12” 5000w hub you will want a lot more battery than two of those modules for both capacity and current delivery. Something like this would be better: https://batteryhookup.com/products/ford-24s-3-3kwh-ev-module-screwdriver

 

[PaPaSteve]

some things I see:

there is no BMS included with each module - extra cost
Samsung 20R are a pretty old cell and are lower energy dense cells but decent power density - there are much better cells out there for your application

If you are planning on a Vespa build and utilizing the potential of a QS 12” 5000w hub you will want a lot more battery than two of those modules for both capacity and current delivery. Something like this would be better: https://batteryhookup.com/products/ford-24s-3-3kwh-ev-module-screwdriver

I'm also looking at doing a build requiring batteries in the 90V range.
In my case the controller in hand has a peak output of 350A.
The Ford hybrid module at batteryhookup shows a 37ah discharge rate but not a max amperage discharge ability.
(37 amps continuous for one hour)
When I contacted batteryhookup for further info regarding max discharge ability or a manufacture's data sheet their reply was I should join their facebook group where some other random person might be able to answer the question.
Ya ... I'm weird but ... No thanks.

So far the biggest take away for me is : designing a bike around a 90V system leaves few options for a BMS or batteries.
I made the mistake of sourcing the motor / controller before the battery and BMS.
72V there are a ton more options.

 

[pwd]

There are many other battery options...
for instance I'm using a pair of these in series for 24S or 86.4V nominal
https://batteryhookup.com/products/samsung-ev-lithium-ion-12s-44-4v-47ah-2-07kwh-module

Although I haven't shopped around for many BMS systems; I'm using an ANT BMS for that 24S or 86.4V battery pack.

 

[Rsmyre]

Thanks PWD for the answer! Those batteries look like the way to go! Papa Steve, I’m trying to source everything before I pull the trigger on this. Supply chain issues and stuff.

 

[Rsmyre]

Would the Daly smart BMS 24s at 200a be a good option? Link below

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313766666540?chn=ps&var=612536878866&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1AP_fsFWmQTu30NRZBWov4g61&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=612536878866_313766666540&targetid=&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9011068&poi=&campaignid=17597089569&mkgroupid=&rlsatarget=&abcId=9300988&merchantid=6296724&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8GOb8eGWN4th2hgY1xoFaBE&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInpn1mPWF-gIV_sLCBB26NAyxEAQYAyABEgK9mfD_BwE

 

[j bjork]

When I contacted batteryhookup for further info regarding max discharge ability or a manufacture's data sheet their reply was I should join their facebook group where some other random person might be able to answer the question.
Ya ... I'm weird but ... No thanks.

Thing is with those ev modules that there is no data available, it is a company "secret".
You can get an idea if you know what they are used for, or you probably have to rely on your own or other peoples testing.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Thing is with those ev modules that there is no data available, it is a company "secret".
You can get an idea if you know what they are used for, or you probably have to rely on your own or other peoples testing.

THX "j bjork"
Batteryhookup did a follow up email stating the module has a 1C rating.
What is a C-rate? The C-rate is the unit battery experts use to measure the speed at which a battery is fully charged or discharged. For example, a C-rate of 1C means that the battery is charged or discharged from 0-100% in one hour.

I'm no battery expert, but it seems a controller that can gobble up 350A, then, this battery discharging at 37A won't get the job done.
Correct ???

 

[j bjork]

It sounds strange if the batteries would be 1C discharge, that would mean 37A discharge if it is 37Ah capacity.
I dont see much use in a car for batteries like that, more like storage (powerwall)

You should have batteries that can handle 10C discharge if they are 37Ah.
If these are for the drive motor in some kind of hybrid I think they are high discharge..

 

[PaPaSteve]

It sounds strange if the batteries would be 1C discharge, that would mean 37A discharge if it is 37Ah capacity.
I dont see much use in a car for batteries like that, more like storage (powerwall)

You should have batteries that can handle 10C discharge if they are 37Ah.
If these are for the drive motor in some kind of hybrid I think they are high discharge..

I can only relay the facts I was given.
A good reason to ask for the original manufactures data sheets.
What they are selling is one module whereas the vehicle probably has many more modules which could be wired in parallel configuration.
Pack does not have BMS or state chemistry.
Their pointing towards facebook is a polite way to guide how others are using them which is probably powerwalls as you mention.
Not enough info to make a purchase.

Lots of hybrid cells are Panasonic ... again very sparse info on which to glean ... it's possible the discharge is 175A.
Still not enough Amps for my application.

 

[Rsmyre]

PaPaSteve. I tried wandering around in that group and couldn’t find any info on those. Thanks for sharing what you found out.

 

[PaPaSteve]

PaPaSteve. I tried wandering around in that group and couldn’t find any info on those. Thanks for sharing what you found out.

Your welcome

 

[Rsmyre]

Okay I’ve been reading more about batteries(threads on here). I think I have a slightly better understanding of things. Only slightly. It’s not necessary or even a good idea to get the highest voltage battery possible. So the Samsung battery that PWD is using or something similar would be good I think. Please correct me if I am wrong. 88v with a 90v controller will put me close to the peak watts the motor can handle. So getting a 96v or even a 120v battery pack would be silly. I’ll put the battery and motor link below.

https://batteryhookup.com/collections/whats-new/products/samsung-ev-lithium-ion-12s-44-4v-47ah-2-07kwh-module

https://www.qsmotor.com/product/12inch-5000w-scooter-motor/

 

[PaPaSteve]

My understanding of the question put forth ...

90 volts times 47 amps = 4230 watts
47 amps times discharge rate of 3c = 141 amps
90 volts times 141 amps = 12,690 watts

motor spec :
Power (Continuous Power): 5000W (peak power 10kw)
Voltage Range: DC 72V-120V.

Two of the Samsung batteries wired in series fits the motor rating.

 

[AdR]

@PWD -Which controller are u using with your 24S samsung setup. Planning to do the same.
Also how are u liking those batteries.

 

[pwd]

I'm using a Fardriver NS84530 motor controller (see my grom clone thread). The Samsung battery modules are working well so far; they stay in pretty good balance and perform as advertised. I draw a peak current of 235A from them; they can certainly handle more but I don't want any more voltage sag. I measured approximately 8.8 milliohms of internal resistance on those modules; which could vary if you were to get some as they are somewhat "used".

 

[AdR]

@pwd. Isn't the 24S full charge voltage 100.8V and the ND84530 max voltage 100V.

 

[AdR]

Also@pwd-How user friendly you find the controller to setup and get working

 

[pwd]

Correct. full charge would be 100.8V MAX for 24S. I charge my pack to a max of 98.4V or 4.1V per cell for better cycle life. From what I've read, the Fardriver NB84XX may through an error if you exceed 100V but a small margin but it shouldn't pop since most of the components are actually good for 130V. It was fairly easy to program but a bit querky; take a look at the nanjing fardriver thread in the motor section for more info.

 

[AdR]

Thanks@pwd