feasibility of DIY 80's honda EV - PV charging

[Kurt]

Based on the graph below data taken from (Tesla roadster) It takes 250whr Mile to maintain 60mph flat ground no wind.

It takes 15kw of power to maintain 60mph

finally the last graph gives some indication of how the power is being consumed to do move the car.

I was researching this basic data to look into the feasibility of converting a small mid 80's Honda civic (very light wight and very aerodynamic base car) Into a EV.

It's a 60mile trip from my house in the city to my off grid home in the country. The trip consists of the first 10miles light city driving at 35mph to get out of the city .Then 40 miles highway driving at 60mph then exiting the highway the last 10 miles are country driving at around 30 - 40mph.

Looking at the graph's above and factoring in say a head wind and hills and other unforeseen inefficacy's I am going to use the 60mph data for the entire 60 mile trip . 250wh mile over the entire 60 mile trip. I get 15,000 whr consumption. Most commercially available small EV's that state a max 60mile range I noticed have around 16,000kwh battery packs so I guess I am being conservative?

I would then have two days to recharge the battery pack over the weekend from PV's. I would install an additional 4kw of pv on my workshop to change the car . I would need to make 8kwh a day over two days to recharge before returning the 60miles to the city again. This kind of weekend charging and return trip would only be temporary until I move permanently to the country home.

Long term use of the EV would be mostly perhaps one 10 - 30 mile trips in the local area each day. But I feel having the 60mile range to be able to comfortably reach the capital city of my state. Many other significant locations are within 60 miles of the country home so 60 mile range is a big advantage.

My wife had a good idea regarding my workshop. It' s a 120m2 - roof- floor area with all kinds of power tools to power from small drill to mills, lathes and welders and lighting. The workshops power it yet to be connected to the homes off grid power unit. The idea was to to perhaps keep the workshops off grid system separate to the homes. Her idea was the EV could plug (dock) into the workshop and its 4kw of pv's. The pv's on the workshop would charge the EV's 15 - 20kwh battery. but then the Ev's battery could then be used to power the workshop. When the EV is being used. A switch could return the workshop to using the homes 60kwh battery's and inverter.
The ev's battery's would only see light loads and perhaps a few kw hrs of load from the workshop a day but at least they would be of some use while not using the car.

Given that the range goal is 60 miles then the return trip range is only 30 mile's . i am fine with that as any return trip in one day would be within this range. I had a idea that when traveling long distances More than 60 mile' sin one day usually just for leisure. My idea was I can rent a powered camping sight each evening. I would need to do this anyhow to have some where to shower and sleep for the night. All powered camp sights have 240v 10a plug in Australia. Camp sights are available in more or less every town big or small.I could do a evening recharge in 6 - 8 hrs. Many campers run 2400w electric heaters all night or AC units so I don't feel guilty about using my 15kwh to recharge. I would be just getting my moneys worth LOL . I think you pay on average around $5 extra for a powered sight and at .25c kwh I would only be using $3.75 worth.

So at this stage i am just looking at the feasibility of this EV. Paralytically cost and if I am in the ball park with the numbers before hunting for parts. Fabrication is not a issue as I have a trade in machining and fabrication and have all the gear to fabricate the build. I spent 15 years building modified 80's Honda's so know them like the back of my hand. I have about 7 years experience building and experimenting with e bikes so my thinking is I am just scaling things up. I just have to stop thinking hobby king when it comes to battery's LOL

This is the model civic i would like to use as they are just so light weight and compact yet have a surprising amount of room for battery's and so on. Also they are very low and frontal drag is very good . + I have a soft spot for them after owning one and then more for 15 years . My modified 84 weighed only 700kg when i was finished with it :lol:

Part of the reason I want to use the old honda hatch is all the new cars are so dam heavy, tall in the body and just dam BIG! yet not that big where is counts. Also the simple suspension and body design makes modifying and retrofitting components to them very easy. I also think the drive line - gearbox was very efficient on the early honda's.

Man there is no way in hell I would have thought that my very first car at 16yo would be fully electric 20 years down the track

Example pic of 84 Honda civic hatch I would want to use

Anyhow at this stage looking into cost and components.

Kurt

 

[neptronix]

Start thinking about netgains, zillas, thundersky, and calb cells

Also get ready to spend wicked $. If you are lacking $, a motorcycle build, or plug-in hybrid conversion could be quite good. The smaller the motor the better.

 

[Kurt]

My thinking is I have three e bikes all-ready for local transport and they are fine for 10 or 20 mile rides. Although i can do and have done much longer rides. i find you come back feeling wind blown and shaken up and it becomes a epic adventure rather than just getting some where. Not to mention 60mph on a bike isn't what i want to be doing or riding in the rain. I want something I can take my wife and daughter in. Its also illegal to ride peddle bikes on a lot of highways where I am.

I was thinking say 10k on battery's and Another 10k on running gear as a start. I don't need power steering or AC and in our mild climate perhaps a heater is all that is needed to defog the window. I basic build but with a good range. Top speed I am happy with 60mph as its just transport. Some of the capital cost of the battery would have been spent on a 2nd battery for my workshop anyhow.

At the moment I am just scouting things out to see what it is going to take in both components & cost to make it happen. While cost isn't really a big issue for me I prefer to do things correctly the 1st time. I do plan to do all the work myself so really only component costs to consider.

Kurt

 

[neptronix]

I see what you mean.

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_kits.php

Here is an interesting place to start looking.

 

[Kurt]

.

 

[Kurt]

Thanks for the link.

50hp @ 96v AC motor and 650a controller kit is around $ 4,700

Two of the 96v 100ah packs like this would be ok giving 20kwh at for $12,000

20k sounds like a good starting budget for a 60mph capable 60mile range EV using the little civic. Not bad for the price of two stealth electric bikes and a lot of DIY.

Kurt

 

[amberwolf]

That car is not uncommon for EV conversions. You may want to poke around http://evalbum.com to see if any of them match your budget and needs, to see what they used and if that fits your abilities/etc.

 

[Kurt]

Thanks for that link Amberwolf,

I see there are a few 3rd generation civics that have been converted

example
http://www.evalbum.com/853

It looks like they make great candidates as expected. It was interesting reading one members blog who converted his 87 civic and how he spoke about getting the weight down on a 3dr gen " I've learned from a 3G civic racing site called redpepperracing.com. "Its funny as I was one of the first members of that forum and most likely he was reading a lot of info I put up on there 10 years ago about getting a 3rd gen under 700kg Small world hey.

He was just using 120v of LEAD and a simple 8" dc motor

"Did 70mph on the freeway no problem...wheeee!!!" and "60 Miles (96 Kilometers) range" Sounds promising

Using a lot of lead his wight was 1200kg 2700lb no to bad for a LOT of lead

I think with a AC motor and lithium batterys 60mph and 60mile range without deep DOC would be easy

Kurt

 

[Hillhater]

Kurt, i admire your determination to get away from ICE power, and I guess if you have the spare cash and time, then the EV would be a good project, but $20 k for a 25yr old small car to travel 120 ml per week, ..seems hard to justify.
I hear your point about the EV's pack being a power source for your workshop, but i thought you had previously said that you had surplus solar and storage already on your new ranch ?
Its a pity those A123 25v modules are not as attractive as first thought ( they would have brought the cost down),.
.. but it may be worth considering a $1k set of these first ..
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/510024456/48V100AH_LiFePO4_Lithium_Battery_For_Telecom.html
( No, ..i dont believe the price either !)

 

[Kurt]

Hillhater,
Our off grid home dose have excess most days and adequate pv when the weather is real bad. The battery's capacity is around 60kwh and we only use between 4 - 6 kwh a day. Mind you the good thing is the battery's have a shallow discharge every day as we are just sipping the top 5 - 10% So they will last a very long time at at 15 - 20k thats a good thing.

We all have our hobby's and I guess to try and justify them doesn't always add up. Yes to throw 20k worth of ev parts into a 1k car body doesn't sound like a good balance. Then to drive 100km a week doesn't sound like a good plan but i will explain more.

If you want a electric car in 2012 you have very few options.You could buy a ready made. One example of a EV in Australia that costs 48k Blade EV( uses a outdated Hyundai getz body) that's had a relatively neat conversion done 144v 28kw Lithium battery and ac motor, 200km range. Effectively if you break the car down you are purchasing 25k of ev parts a 5k of car and 18k of labor, warranty and profit to the company.

No matter what EV you buy or build if you want to do a reasonable job A good 10k will go into the lithium battery's and another 10k will go into the AC motor, controller and accessory as a minimum. No real other way around it . It's a bit like saying I want to build a stealth bike for $250 it isn't going to happen. I have seen a few EV builds for 10 - 12k But they all have lead battery's and DC motors two things most of us know from our e bike experiences are not the best combinations.

My thinking is buy a nice battery,charger,motor and controller and they can be fitted to any small car from a 1k 25 year old civic to a new lotus elise. You haven't
wasted your money on the EV components even if you do decide you want them powering a better chassis later on.

The plan wasn't to only drive the car 100km a week that was just one trip it had to be able to make one a week. The car would be used to drive lots of short trips around town. In a year or two when we move permanently to our off grid home then I would only have two cars . i would sell our family sedan and just have the Honda EV and our new 4wd Diesel ute for heavy work.

That way if the shit hits the fan so to speak and We are not dependent on anyone as our car energy, house energy, water and food will be self sufficient.

I'm not doing it to save money on running costs,Or for it to pay off and be a better investment that a ICE powerd car. If I just wanted a toy car For 20k I could buy a secondhand Honda S2000. If i wanted cheep motoring I would buy a secondhand 1600cc TDI hatchback and get 3 - 4 lt 100km if a wanted that. I want the Independence of making my own energy. If i can why not use a car body that you have a soft spot for and enjoyed driving for 15 years (great visibility I just spent 40k on a new 4wd and I cant see out the back of it ) + the old civic just happens to have a few things going for it when looking for a conversion car like weight-size and aerodynamics.

Its the same deal with my house even if they put mains power down my road and offered to connect it to my house for free I still wouldn't want it as i like the Independence.

I built a hand made retro style caravan a few years ago as a hobby. I have had a few offer's from people to buy it and its worth around 20k . So part of the reason for the EV was just a new project.

Kurt.

 

[dnmun]

why not build up a plug in hybrid? that way you have fewer problems with the drive train build and can still add enuff storage to get more mileage on juice. maybe even see if toyota will put you on a priority list for their new lithium powered plug in hybrid.

you have all the marketing stuff going for you. boonie living on PV and just the type they will be marketing to. i think that might be a real option, and they may cut you a deal if you agree to participate in promotions.

worth the try, you have a big fan club here so we could push up your profile at toyota from the sphere.

 

[Hillhater]

I understand Kurt, ..and i envy your situation
My concern would be the investment in battery's. At this moment , as you stated, its likely going to be $10-$12k worth of cells for your 20 kWhr pack. But as we are seeing with those A123 packs every one is swarming over, its quite possible that the current cell technology could be "dumped" as new chemistry's come on stream, slashing the value of "todays packs".
I know the A123 modules are all suspect, but some guys are scoring well with $1000 for 100v, 60Ahr modules and others building from 100% new cells @ <$20/cell, so there are already some bargains out there.
As with any technology, the "early adopters" always pay top dollar, and i am sure you are aware of that, but i do feel we are on the verge of a big fall in cell price as mainstream EV's , and their battery development programs, come on stream.

Have you seen this conversion on a Honda ?..
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm

 

[liveforphysics]

I would recommend the next generation civic platform. Going to double wishbones makes a huge difference.

The 91-95 chassis has the same double wishbone suspension as the 88-91, but has way more engine bay space and a lower drag coefficient.

I think you could build a much faster more fun to drive car than a leaf for less money.

 

[Kurt]

liveforphysics

Yes that is another option. I might just have to take that option anyhow. It's funny how the 84-87 civic-crx that was once abundant on ebay and trading papers has become harder and harder to find in the past few years, where did they all go . I know the 88-91 was still a very small car and i guess the 91-95 wasn't to bad and like you say a little sleeker in the body. After that they just got bigger and bigger and more like people movers The early 80's to mid 90's honda's were built by a bunch of crazy fanatic engineers combined with dedicated factory workers. As you would know when you start really messing with them and stripping them right down or pushing the parts beyond its intended use do you appreciate the detail, design and material quality of a early Honda. I Cant say honda have that edge anymore though.

dnmun
That is an idea but I am little fish in a big ocean. I am not a big fan of hybrid's. Part of what attracts me to going electric is I do away with all the things I don't like about ICE power cars. I feel with a hybrid you get the negative's of both EV and ICE rather than the benefits of both . I am also the kind of person who likes to DIY everything so purchasing a completed car isn't as appealing

Another Part of the reason in building my own EV is to just get the word out and the hobby of building it. In the past building ICE was my hobby but i don't want to go back to that.I like the social aspect of talking to people and helping other people once I have gained some experience building my own EV.

Hillhater

Investing 10 or 12k in a battery makes me a little nerves to.Not that i am not willing to pay that much. its more that say the controller and motor is more or less a proven component and mechanically you can see what you are getting and have some faith that if you spec the controller and AC motor correctly they will be reliable for years to come. The battery on the other hand needs some fingers crossing and luck at times.

I would like to at least find a good clean civic to start with and get the gearbox adapter plate machined, pick and purchase a motor and controller. get the car together over a year. Then ponder what battery to power it with .

Kurt