Help find a >=25A continuous battery for Bafang BBS02 750W

[mwkeefer]

Hello,

I read your thread and just wanted to make you aware of something...

I have and run a BBS02 with external controller but did about 3K with internal and on a calibrated CA peak for a second or less was 25A but it quickly dropped down to about 20A continuous. I successfully ran a simple 48v 13AH All Cell pack with Zero issues on flats or massive hills like I have up my road.

So continuous needs to be around 20A rated and peak somewhere between 25A and 30A for 1-3 seconds maximum.

Hope this helps!

-Mike

What's the benefit of using an external controller? I didn't know that was possible with the bbs02.

An external 6 or 9 FET Lyen is basically an infineon clone. Advantages include:

1.) Reduces heat build up in the motor assembly (takes all activity outboard).
2.) Properly specked out controller (IRFB3077 for <= 48v pack, IRFB4110 above that) will increase efficiency of the BBS-02.
3.) Programming controller becomes simple and well documented.
4.) Adjust current limits to set your needs, i use 25A/40A right now which kicks me in the ass in 1 - 3rd gear.

Mine was initially replaced out of necessity not to enhance performance as my 48v 750w BBS02 controller shorted out in the process of folding the bike one day and I didn't want to waste a new 750w BBS02 controller on this bike.

In the end... external controller is simple, I've posted a thread here about color combinations for Bafang and all you need do is run a bundle of 5 wires for hall sensors (20-24 G) and 3 phase wires at 12G. The bottom has a nice grommet you can feed these wires through and then bring them up and behind seat tube where you mount the controller between tube and rear tire. It's a 30-45 minute operation if your good with a soldering iron.

So that's my .02, its not for some but after riding both for extended lengths of time (months each) I find the external far outperforms the stock.

Regards,
Mike

 

[gameofbikes]

Question about the ping battery packs, such as this one here: http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-12/48V-15AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

Can someone please describe the packaging? What's under the blue shrink wrap? Is it a solid metal casing that will help compress the pouches? What is the black material that is not covered by the blue wrapping?

Is it fine to just put this in a cushioned trunk bag, maybe with some extra padding to fill empty space? Or should more care be taken (if so, what)?

What does this mean "Voltage: 48 Volts (51.2 Volts Nominal)"? I don't know what the 51.2V Nominal part means.

Note: I just updated the original post with Paul's reply to my questions about the discharge rates of the 20R and 25R cells in the bottle mount packs.

 

[cycborg]

Can someone please describe the packaging? What's under the blue shrink wrap? Is it a solid metal casing that will help compress the pouches?

The Ping packs consist of thin rectangular (“prismatic” in the jargon) cells with two tabs at the top for electrical connections. These tabs pass through circuit boards and are soldered together on top of the boards to create the parallel and series connections. These circuit board connections, along with the blue heat shrink, are what holds the cells together. I don’t think there is any rigid casing.

What is the black material that is not covered by the blue wrapping?

The black part on top is the BMS. This monitors the voltages of the individual cells, and the current of the pack, to protect against overcharge, overdischarge, and overcurrent. It is just fastened to the pack with packing tape, so you can cut the tape if you want to move the BMS to a different location on the pack, within the length of the leads connecting it to the pack.

What does this mean "Voltage: 48 Volts (51.2 Volts Nominal)"? I don't know what the 51.2V Nominal part means.

Packs are called “36 V” or “48 V” or “72 V” for historical reasons - these are multiples of 12 V, which is the nominal voltage of SLA. Lithium packs are assembled in multiples of cells that get close to these values, but when you multiply the nominal value of the lithium cell by the number of cells in series, you don’t get exactly these values. A LiFePO4 cell has a nominal value of 3.2 V, and a “48 V” Ping uses 16 of these cells in series, so that’s where the 51.2 V comes from.

 

[gameofbikes]

Can someone please describe the packaging? What's under the blue shrink wrap? Is it a solid metal casing that will help compress the pouches?

The Ping packs consist of thin rectangular (“prismatic” in the jargon) cells with two tabs at the top for electrical connections. These tabs pass through circuit boards and are soldered together on top of the boards to create the parallel and series connections. These circuit board connections, along with the blue heat shrink, are what holds the cells together. I don’t think there is any rigid casing.

What is the black material that is not covered by the blue wrapping?

The black part on top is the BMS. This monitors the voltages of the individual cells, and the current of the pack, to protect against overcharge, overdischarge, and overcurrent. It is just fastened to the pack with packing tape, so you can cut the tape if you want to move the BMS to a different location on the pack, within the length of the leads connecting it to the pack.

What does this mean "Voltage: 48 Volts (51.2 Volts Nominal)"? I don't know what the 51.2V Nominal part means.

Packs are called “36 V” or “48 V” or “72 V” for historical reasons - these are multiples of 12 V, which is the nominal voltage of SLA. Lithium packs are assembled in multiples of cells that get close to these values, but when you multiply the nominal value of the lithium cell by the number of cells in series, you don’t get exactly these values. A LiFePO4 cell has a nominal value of 3.2 V, and a “48 V” Ping uses 16 of these cells in series, so that’s where the 51.2 V comes from.

What's the black material on the side, in the picture if you visit my link?

 

[d8veh]

Any one having buy all ready older technology that is these 18650 cells, he does feel negatively charged, but my note is for people who care about getting the best in 2015.
And as you can see the specific 38120 cells are so easily serviceable too.
In the battle between past and future? My vote goes to future, simple as that.

18650 cells are at the absolute front of battery development, not old technology. There's now single 18650 cells weighing less than 50g that can give 10A. Every week, somebody develops a new one that's even better. Every type of battery has advantages and disadvantages. Take you battery out and weigh it. Then compare it with a typical 40 cell 36v 13.6ah one with Panasonic NCR18650B cells that weighs about 2.5 kg and can give 40A

Your battery with LiFePO4 is 10ah, weighs 4kg and can do 20A (limited by BMS. It can't do 30A like it says in the listing). That's 90 wh per kg compared with 196wh/kg for the Panasonic one that can also give 20A continuous.

For me, battery weight more than anything spoils the handling and comfort of your ride. I would never use a LiFePO4 battery again. They're just too heavy. Nearly every OEM bike manufacturer has given up with LiFePO4 now. They nearly all use 18650 cells for a reason. I have exactly the same battery as you that I bought from BMSBattery about four or five years ago, where it's remained unchanged in specification since, which implies to me that it's very old technology. Mine is only used for testing because it's simply too heavy for a bike. For the same weight I can have a 20aH 48v battery with Panasonic cells.

Your bike would ride a lot better and further with one of these. You should try one:

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/683-36v125ah-bottle-09-e-bike-battery-charger-battery.html

 

[dbaker]

d8veh,

Do you think 36 volt is the sweet spot for these packs both cost and performance? Do the 48 volt packs sag too much and not deliver rated ah with 20 amp load?

 

[gameofbikes]

Any one having buy all ready older technology that is these 18650 cells, he does feel negatively charged, but my note is for people who care about getting the best in 2015.
And as you can see the specific 38120 cells are so easily serviceable too.
In the battle between past and future? My vote goes to future, simple as that.

18650 cells are at the absolute front of battery development, not old technology. There's now single 18650 cells weighing less than 50g that can give 10A. Every week, somebody develops a new one that's even better. Every type of battery has advantages and disadvantages. Take you battery out and weigh it. Then compare it with a typical 40 cell 36v 13.6ah one with Panasonic NCR18650B cells that weighs about 2.5 kg and can give 40A

Your battery with LiFePO4 is 10ah, weighs 4kg and can do 20A (limited by BMS. It can't do 30A like it says in the listing). That's 90 wh per kg compared with 196wh/kg for the Panasonic one that can also give 20A continuous.

For me, battery weight more than anything spoils the handling and comfort of your ride. I would never use a LiFePO4 battery again. They're just too heavy. Nearly every OEM bike manufacturer has given up with LiFePO4 now. They nearly all use 18650 cells for a reason. I have exactly the same battery as you that I bought from BMSBattery about four or five years ago, where it's remained unchanged in specification since, which implies to me that it's very old technology. Mine is only used for testing because it's simply too heavy for a bike. For the same weight I can have a 20aH 48v battery with Panasonic cells.

Your bike would ride a lot better and further with one of these. You should try one:

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/683-36v125ah-bottle-09-e-bike-battery-charger-battery.html

The 750W bafang wouldn't run with a 36V battery, but yes, I now get your point. I added Wh/kg to my Excel sheet and all the LiFePO4 batteries sorted to the bottom of the list when sorted by that metric.

These are the batteries that remain when I filter out anything above 15lbs, anything under 150Wh/kg, anything that can't support 25A continuous, and ignoring any aliexpress for now. My cost calculations include shipping as well as a separate charger where one is needed (several from BMS Battery don't include a charger):

• 
  20Ah, $528, 50A continuous, 6kg, NiCoMn, $26.40/Ah, 960Wh - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/673-high-c-rate-48v20ah-li-ion-battery-heat-shrink-battery-pack-battery.html
  15Ah, $486.57, 30A continuous, 4.3kg, Polymer/NiCoMn, $32.43/Ah, 720Wh - https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/664-high-c-rate-polymer-li-ion-battery-heat-shrink-battery-pack-battery.html#/voltage_capacity-48v_15ah
  14.7Ah, $915, 40A continuous, 4.2kg, 18650-Samsung 25R-triangle pack, $62.24/Ah, 705.6Wh - http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=158
  12Ah, $499.12, 30A continuous, 3.4kg, Panasonic 18650, Downtube mount, $41.59/Ah, 576Wh - http://conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=441
  23.2Ah, $640, 69.6A continuous, 6.2kg, Panasonic 18650, rear rack case, $27.59/Ah, 1,113.6Wh - http://conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=458
  15Ah, $500, 30A continuous, 4.5kg, 18650 pack, $33.33/Ah, 720Wh - http://calibike.com/?product=electric-bicycle-ebike-48v-15ah-lithium-li-ion-battery-and-charger

Any thoughts on these? I'm not getting the em3ev one on this list because $915 is more than I want to spend. Some other em3ev batteries are in my price range, but got ruled out with the above mentioned filters.

EDIT: Just added the calibike.com battery. That looks like the best option so far, and the US based vendor + warantee are just icing on the cake.

P.S. I can't find the ES post that has the list of recommended motor kit and battery vendors. Can someone link me to that?

 

[oobagooba]

18650 cells are at the absolute front of battery development, not old technology. There's now single 18650 cells weighing less than 50g that can give 10A. Every week, somebody develops a new one that's even better. Every type of battery has advantages and disadvantages. Take you battery out and weigh it. Then compare it with a typical 40 cell 36v 13.6ah one with Panasonic NCR18650B cells that weighs about 2.5 kg and can give 40A

P.S. I can't find the ES post that has the list of recommended motor kit and battery vendors. Can someone link me to that?

Top 10 list http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60790

Dav8h hit it on the head as usual.

Another vendor, I got excellent service from greenbikekit, just a little over the bmsb price but no drama, they have 4 ncm 48v batteries in your price range, scroll to the bottom if interested
http://www.greenbikekit.com/lithium-battery/li-ion.html?dir=asc&limit=30&order=price
GBK is on the "top 10 list" above; bmsb is not

Last comment, consider a frame bag, your bike will have better weight distribution, battery protection if you pad it, and imo shock absorption hanging in the bag as opposed to hard bolted to the frame or rear rack and no mounts to break, also more battery options will fit inside a bag, good luck in your search

 

[leelorr]

Looks like you may have made a typo on the EM3EV entry. A charger is included in the listed battery price.
Looking on their web site, I come up with $625 for a 11.4AH battery (without the battery bag that is not included from the other vendors), and $745 for the 14.7AH choice.

Good info,
Thanks,
Lorrin

 

[gameofbikes]

Looks like you may have made a typo on the EM3EV entry. A charger is included in the listed battery price.
Looking on their web site, I come up with $625 for a 11.4AH battery (without the battery bag that is not included from the other vendors), and $745 for the 14.7AH choice.

Good info,
Thanks,
Lorrin

No typos, I think. I included the price of the bags, but that's only like $25 so not enough to sway my decisions either way. I'm including the cost of shipping with all vendors. For example, for the em3ev 14.7Ah pack, shipping to me in the US is $145, so $915 total.

The 11.4Ah is $795 with shipping (or $770-ish w/o bag).

 

[gameofbikes]

Any one having buy all ready older technology that is these 18650 cells, he does feel negatively charged, but my note is for people who care about getting the best in 2015.
And as you can see the specific 38120 cells are so easily serviceable too.
In the battle between past and future? My vote goes to future, simple as that.

Your bike would ride a lot better and further with one of these. You should try one

You better turn upside down all your calculations because you are in denial to protect consumers wallets by promoting a solution capable for just 500 recharges the most, which eventually and shortly will end in to a trash can.
Only a young children would eat the high performance fairytale because is unable to see the high cost in long term.
Ebike is not an object for racing, it is just electric assistance over a bicycle.

If this topic is just another one of few hundreds in which some one is dreaming to convert a bicycle in to a F-16 fighting air plane which is a thought of totally wild imagination, then yes I got involved here by mistake.
I do avoid offering any information at all to such persons.

I agree with you about the total cost of ownership. But I'm also factoring extra weight. I carry my bike up and down stairs to get to my home entrance, and to hang it on the rack in my home. Maneuvering around with as little added extra weight is ideal for me also because when I commute to school, or go to the store or cafes, I will take the battery off and carry it in my backpack or in my hands (in a canvas type bag). So the weight of the pack is very important to me.

I also calculated that my mileage over the next 3 years I have left in school (including my trips to cafes and grocery stores) should be covered by a battery with 800 cycles very easily. 439 charge cycles to be exact, assuming a 15Ah pack that gives me 13Ah real world capacity, and being generous with the Ah/mile (.66Ah/mi, assuming I pedal along with the bike, this ratio is higher than what I've seen most people on this forum achieving), and the miles per week.

I'm not sure if there is a calendar time limit to the battery in addition to charge cycles, that I should be factoring in.

As long as the battery lasts until I graduate I will be totally happy and will have gotten my money's worth.

 

[d8veh]

d8veh,

Do you think 36 volt is the sweet spot for these packs both cost and performance? Do the 48 volt packs sag too much and not deliver rated ah with 20 amp load?

I have the 48v Panasonic pack on my Xiongda. I don't see any significant sag, but my controller is limited to 15A. I've heard of a couple of guys that used them with the 750w BBS02. They never mentioned any problems. Comparing the 48v with the 36v, you run with less current for the same power, which would make less sag, but the 36v one has more capacity (5P instead of 4P), so each cell gives 25% less current, so in the end, I don't think it would make too much difference.

For me, the number of charge cycles is not a big decision factor. Having a bike that works well and is nice to ride is more important than a theoretical long-term cost advantage unless, of course, you're cursed with permanent lack of money. All my own batteries that had defective cells were LiFePO4, though I have to say that my two Headway ones are still going strong, and they're ny oldest. Battery technology is advancing all the time. I've got loads of batteries that I bought a few years ago that still work, but I replaced them with modern ones that give higher discharge rates and are lighter or have more capacity for the same weight. I guess I'll be chucking these too in a couple of years, when there's even better ones. Maybe that's wasteful, but the bikes I have now is so much better than what I'had before.

I'm thinking back to the things I've done in the last five years. Controllers now have current control, LCDS, Multi PAS levels and Sinewave; 3kg motors that can winch 120kg up a 20% hill with only 15A; batteries are half the weight and twice the discharge rate. How will it be in another few years?

 

[gameofbikes]

Top 10 list http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60790

Dav8h hit it on the head as usual.

Another vendor, I got excellent service from greenbikekit, just a little over the bmsb price but no drama, they have 4 ncm 48v batteries in your price range, scroll to the bottom if interested
http://www.greenbikekit.com/lithium-battery/li-ion.html?dir=asc&limit=30&order=price
GBK is on the "top 10 list" above; bmsb is not

Last comment, consider a frame bag, your bike will have better weight distribution, battery protection if you pad it, and imo shock absorption hanging in the bag as opposed to hard bolted to the frame or rear rack and no mounts to break, also more battery options will fit inside a bag, good luck in your search

I would love to order from GBK (that's where I got my BBS02), but their 48V packs are all <=20A max continuous. So far I'm leaning towards calibike.

Conhismotor has a pretty good 12Ah bottle mount: http://conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=441. At $499.12 shipped, t's a little pricy for 12Ah, but very light, and bottle mount is the most ideal for me. But their reputation is spotty. Several people have reported bad experiences with them, while several have reported good. I'm looking up more anecdotes about people ordering batteries from them.

 

[dbaker]

Amazing to see all of the specifications listed on the Conhis site. Hopefully they actually deliver them:

Nominal Capacity (AH)
12Ah

Nominal Voltage (V)
48.1V

Source Resistance (mΩ）
<40

Cell Specification
3.7V 2.9AH Panasonic 3C Powerful Cell

Cell Combination
4-parallels
13-series

Cell Size
Panasonic 18650 Cell

Cell Quantity (parallel*series)
52 pcs

Discharge Cutoff Voltage (V)
40 +/- 1V

Charge Cutoff Voltage (V)
54.6V

Rated Discharge Current (A)
24A

Instantaneous Maximum Discharge Current (A)
50A (with BMS Board Limited)

Maximum Continuous Discharge Current (A)
30A (with BMS Board Limited)

Maximum Continuous Charge Current (A)
5

Charge Mode
CC/CV

Standard Charge Current (A)
2A

Charge Time under Standard Charge Current
7

Fast Charge Current (A)
5A

Charge Time under Fast Charge Current
3

Charge Temperature Range
0 - 60 ℃

Discharge Temperature Range
-20 - 60 ℃

Battery Size
360*130*90mm

Battery Net Weight
3.4kgs　

Battery Gross Weight
5.5kgs　

I did not find the Calibike battery on ebay where they previously listed the configuration (13s7p?).

 

[gameofbikes]

OK, i'm looking BMSBattery, but I see a lot of people here reporting issues with their chargers. I might order one from BMSBattery, and another one from another vendor. Questions:

1. Which charger would you all recommend to go with this battery: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-batter...-pack-battery.html#/voltage_capacity-48v_15ah
2. What's the highest charge rate (amps) I can do without significantly decreasing the battery life?
3. What do I need to keep in mind to choose a new charger? What factors should I look at?
4. BMSBattery asks a bunch of info when you want to order a charger. What would I put for these fields for the battery I linked to above?

• 
  Battery Type: *
  Calls in Series: *
  AC Plug Type: * (this is the side I plug into the wall socket? If so, should I just put "USA 120V"?)
  DC Connector Type: * (this is the side I plug into the battery?)
  Charge Voltage (Default: Typical value ):
  Charge Current (Default: Maximum):

Expanding on #3, chargers have to be configured for the battery they are going to be used with, correct? Are there any chargers that let the end user do this, and would there be any reason for me to want to be able to configure it myself? Let's say I got two different 48V (nominal) batteries, and wanted to use the same charger for both. Would that be possible / advisable?

 

[d8veh]

The chargers that BMSB sell are adjustable, but if you fill in those parameters above they'll do it for you. You'll have to ask them the maximum charge current and voltage for the battery, which depends on which size you order, so make sure you say which one.

 

[gameofbikes]

The chargers that BMSB sell are adjustable, but if you fill in those parameters above they'll do it for you. You'll have to ask them the maximum charge current and voltage for the battery, which depends on which size you order, so make sure you say which one.

Thanks. I don't know much about electronics, but am willing to learn. Can you help me fill out those fields?

I'm in the USA, i think we use 120V wall sockets, and I'm going for the 48V/15Ah battery (https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-batter...-pack-battery.html#/voltage_capacity-48v_15ah).

Will the discharge connector for this battery be plug-n-play with the BBS02?

 

[gameofbikes]

Pulled the trigger on the calibike 48V15Ah (4A charger included).

Will the connectors be plug-n-play with Bafang mid-drive, or will I need some kind of adaptor(s)?

 

[tln]

Pulled the trigger on the calibike 48V15Ah (4A charger included).

Will the connectors be plug-n-play with Bafang mid-drive, or will I need some kind of adaptor(s)?

The calibike comes without a plug on the discharge wires, so you'll need to install your own. Something like Anderson PP30s.

 

[gameofbikes]

Pulled the trigger on the calibike 48V15Ah (4A charger included).

Will the connectors be plug-n-play with Bafang mid-drive, or will I need some kind of adaptor(s)?

The calibike comes without a plug on the discharge wires, so you'll need to install your own. Something like Anderson PP30s.

A there instructions somewhere I can follow to install those? I've never done that before.

 

[tln]

http://www.wb3w.net/powerpoleinst.htm

I use the crimp from generic wire cutters instead of the specialized tool