Help identifying "no name" pouch cells

[Reid_in_QC]

Hello all. New user here at Endless Sphere but used it as reference often and I've tinkered with small EVs and battery-electric machines here on our working farm for several years.

I picked up a handful of these larger pouch cells at a local recycler who was scared to keep them kicking around his shop full of miscreants and hooligans in nothing but a cardboard box. So worried (and clueless) was he that he put said box outside in the rain


So I hauled them home, dried them off, inspected and repacked them safely. They all look clean and harm-free despite their mistreatment and all have comparable voltage around 3.2V - which doesn't really identify the chemistry conclusively I don't think. I'm having no luck finding specs online for these pouches so I thought I'd ask here if anyone knows tricks for tracking down this kind of info. Also suggestions on how to find suitable separators to assemble a robust pack assembly would be welcome. The cells look big enough to potentially make a decent pack (maybe 3.5kWh total, estimating by weight, for my little hoard) but I need to know more about these cells before I even start testing them.

Pouch dimensions are about 225mm x 265mm x 16mm (8-3/4" x 10-1/4" x 5/8"). (possibly 228x268x12 as per label but they're definitely thicker than 12mm but not swollen. The only identifying marks I could find are the barcode sticker with variable serial below and two consistent codes above: WX12I3267 (26822812A)



And finally, for bonus points, there was this A123 module sitting at the recycler (who still speaks mostly lead) that I almost made an offer on but instead I snapped a pic to look up more info. Again I haven't been able to identify it's original application or confirm the figures on the nameplate. Anyone know what this came out of or if the figures sound right? Looks awfully small to me for 6.8kWh. I didn't take dimensions I'm afraid but the clamp-type multimeter in the shot is a small one.




And gotta use it because it's there... ! now that's an emoticon worth creating! :lol:

Thanks in advance for any insights on these pouches of mystery

 

[DogDipstick]

Those pouch cells are trash. DOnt even try. Puffed puffed puffed city. Danger to user.

The A123 module might be worth it.

 

[Reid_in_QC]

Those pouch cells are trash. DOnt even try. Puffed puffed puffed city. Danger to user.

The A123 module might be worth it.

Any chance you could be a bit more precise here? Cells are trash because? They look puffed in the photo? (they're not) You've tested cells like this before or read accounts of them failing and swelling?

I understand (I think) the dangers associated with pouch cells that fail and swell but I don't see any reason to throw them away immediately. What's the backstory to go with your answer?

 

[DogDipstick]

First off, I wanna say: PLEASE use 'used cells".. and please, recycle. I love recycling. Best way to do it.

You want to test IR: Erate: Crate: Capacity. Cycle one of them 10 times on a log. In, out, in, out, in,out. In a safe place. Charge full, and let sit for a month, a sample of say 1 of every 10 you have.... Sit for a month and re-check...

Then put a brick on them ( to compress, restrain them, a little) and I promise you will get different results from the first test.
They look new. Not installed. No scale, so I cannot really see them well... but... the tabs are undamaged and teh cell looks like a low C rate ( 1C) Lion or Lifepo pouch. Who knows why they were left to slowly discharge.

I understand (I think) the dangers associated with pouch cells that fail and swell but I don't see any reason to throw them away immediately. What's the backstory to go with your answer?

Go put them in a 100*, summer, sunlight and they will balllon. They skin is very loose, that means they are junk.

Experience and credential:

Hands on.... ie not from " reading accounts of them"... ( we all know what a puffed pouch is, anyway)...
I have tested over a thousand (>1000) of similar looking cells, In fact, since you got them out the trash, i will give you 300 more, cells, look just like that, free, if you come pick them up ;.I have used cells like this from day one.

Right now in the storage I have (many) 2Ah, 5Ah, 8Ah, 13Ah, 14Ah, 15Ah, 25Ah, 40Ah, 50Ah, and 53Ah pouch cells like this. Piles.

Probally have 15+ different model cells here from testing, for people and myself. Lifepo, Lead, Lithium, lipo, (no lTO though) . Maybe 20 or 25 even... different part number cells here for testing.

I have 50 requests to build batteries from cells like these. Right now. Literally 40+ PM asking me bout cells, and that is only here on ES, other places I have long lists of buyers. I get about 1 new one a week. Have many happy customers, have designed and sold bus bars, C-taps, balance systems for these cells.

I have 5kW of datalogger hooked up to a 5kWh stash of good cells for a regen bank and also burn the power and catalog alot of cells from EV. Up to 32s, inone shot, 5700w. I also have a 30kW, 296V,, nominal datalogger for large batteries that rarely gets used. The 5kW datalogger, 32s, does.

My multimeter cost 1100$. Just one of them.

Another ( power analyzer, ) multimeter looking thing, next to it, ( the 1100$ one), cost me $599 and isnt your normal " multi meter"... and can tell me, on a graph, the current harmonics of a BLDC or AC motor, up to the 32nd order.

Go, Google "Power analyzer" and you will wonder how the hell I got one for 599$,. The equivalent Fluke starts at 1600$ and goes through 30,000$. Most start at around 1600$.. I am equipped and dedicated to this hobby. Well, and good. I AM NOT, formally educated in electronics, person, but is a hobby for me.

Yours, cost ......... 50$. ( in the pic, the UNI-T DC clamp, 400A... )... I will never again trust a 50$ multimeter. Not with a 10 foot stick. Noooooh nooo nononon noope nope. Noway No how Not today No sir. I said no,.

I just listed 3000$ of equipment, specifically purchased, to test used batteries.

I have been given free cells, by BHU and GREENTEC AUTO ( both advertise here) specifically to test and see if they are good for ebikes, more than once.

I work for a licensed engineering company. ON the books. Our last contracted employer was Owls Head Wastewater and Power generation station, New York New York. I also am licensed by the DEP to treat wastewater in Pa,. We helped install a methane pilot ignition system in teh power generation diesels... That ran off of digester gas ( that was produced at the wastwater side of the plant).

People come to me for electronic troubleshooting, from Golf carts, to EFI systems, to CNC machine systems, to 3 phase 480v air compressors, in the old mans shop. This week I troubleshot a 10 ton crane on a truck, that the remote was driven over. It was easy, just a wire break, to the solonoids, but without me, that old man would not have been able to do it.


I aint a kid. I as born almost half a century ago. Been around the block. Love talking bout cells, honest.

/ Credentials.

Trust me, they are not near OEM spec, not near OEm IR, nor twill they compress good, and will ( are ) puff(ed) badly.

Tehya re puffed. You just cannot see cause they are not restrained. You see this alot in FLOOD cars. Puffed like that....
Its the loose skin. Puffo. I see skin like that I know they are trash. Like I said I have 300 here you can pick up. I think they "self discharge" in the flood car battery packs. .... and they all look like that when they come out of FLOOD cars.

Its from puffing for sure. Puffed. Puff city. YOu say they are not, but those cells are NOT worth the trouble to build a pack from.
ANY loose skin = junk. Cell yu post pic of is absolute, no name, junk. You cannot compress a loose skin cell, they wobble and never make a good assy: You need restraint, or compression, for longevity and cell balance.

Not even a name on that cell. Not a bar code, lot number, date, anything. Just one of those old line barcodes. Junk. Did not waste the ink in production to trace the lot. YOU can tell a cheapo cell from a LGX, SK, or A123 cell just by looking at the numbers and data on the cells.... You can tell the quality just by sight.

Loose skinned ( puffed) pouch cells are not good to build with. YOu cannot compress them, every cycle they will puff more and the gas volume becomes permanent every charge discharge. You will get much less than 80% capacity from those. Trust me, I tried and tried alot, buying junk cells " hoping" they will give good power... they didnt. My own fault.. to buy them in the first place.

I can show you two cells side by side that are the same cell name part number, one puffed and giving nil ( no power, poor collumbic efficiency like 70%, poor Erate, for the IR, and poor C rate, for the heat created) , the other not loosely skinned, , and lasting years.

Yo would be better off burning them for the scrap copper. Like I said I got a couple hundred here I will give you free. Just like that. I wont sell them... it will give me a bad seller reputation. You can have them. They will be scrapped soon enough if you dont come.

THE A123 MODULE: Is probably worth it. Most A123 cells are good, when found in nature.

The big problem is the collumbic efficiency of a loosely skinned cell.. you will put 130% IN, to get 70% out. The rest is wastedinheat.

See:

Coulombic Efficiency (CE %) is the ratio of discharge capacity (mAh/g) to charge capacity (mAh/g) multiplied by 100.

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808c-coulombic-and-energy-efficiency-with-the-battery
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808b-what-causes-li-ion-to-die

A good cell: See right under the tabs, where they were cut from teh module? See how *TIGHT* it is? This is a NEW cell. No cycles. No looseness, no puff, no (ZERO) gas in the pouch.... Well marked with Julian date, maker batch number, and customer batch number... plus the cell part number. This cell came out of a sealed shipping container that said " Property of GM".. and " MADE IN THE USA" ....purchased straight from a dealership.

Module was sealed when I got it. Still had the GM white "warranty tape" on all shipping mounting points ( they are bolted down int he shipping containers, then covered with tamper-proof tape). . Picked up in Ohio. Close to where it was made.

This is a high quality cell. This is a 25Ah Chevy cell. Pls note the differences.. specifically the puffing by the tabs.

If you were local, Reid, I would love to test your cell. This is just result I have gotten by trying to test similar looking cells.

 

[Reid_in_QC]

Now THAT is a full and detailed response. Thanks for taking the time to compose it and share the fruit of your experience.

I can now happily set these cells aside for recycling and not feel bad about being too apprehensive to try anything with them. Seems a shame to put all that effort into manufacturing something that's no good to anyone and carries all that embodied energy from the factory straight to the grave but I hear you that anyone who can't be bothered to make their product traceable isn't really trying very hard.

I've got plenty of other projects to keep me busy and good pouch cells in good LG/Volt packs already waiting for other projects so I guess I can scrap these with a clear conscience.

Thanks again for the lessons but you don't have to make fun of another guy's multimeter :lol: In truth that Fluke is a traveller and my buddy's anyway so I'm taking no umbrage.

 

[DogDipstick]

Now THAT is a full and detailed response. Thanks for taking the time to compose it and share the fruit of your experience.

I can now happily set these cells aside for recycling and not feel bad about being too apprehensive to try anything with them. Seems a shame to put all that effort into manufacturing something that's no good to anyone and carries all that embodied energy from the factory straight to the grave but I hear you that anyone who can't be bothered to make their product traceable isn't really trying very hard.

I've got plenty of other projects to keep me busy and good pouch cells in good LG/Volt packs already waiting for other projects so I guess I can scrap these with a clear conscience.

Yeah. Trying to compress " loose" cells is a real pain.... they just dont. The stack will wobble, the gas volume changes with temperature, and SOC,and the pack never lives a happy life. Cell voltages will wander. Not repeatable capacity out of the cells. Every OE module you see, ( like the A123 above) takes restraint into consideration. Overbuilds so the cell does not have the chance to form gas inside the bag... I know this b/c I have tried to use "loose" cells.... with very poor results.

Like I said.. I got a bunch to throw away. Not worth the trouble. I wouldn't sell them to someone, and I wouldn't try to use them in anything but a outside "powerbank" for a powerwall... Low current, energy storage. Maybe. Even then they will not last the time.

That said who knows why they were not used, or how long they will really last. From my experience, they are not worth the trouble.

 

[fechter]

A google search of the number came back with:

Wanxiang A123 System Asia Co., Ltd.

I would guess those are LiFePO4 cells. You could try charging them to 3.6v and do a capacity test. If they are actually Li-ion, the capacity will be lower than expected. Those should be around 20Ahr.