HELP! Jerky driving with Grin All Axle hub motor

[OleyT]

Where do you want to test the signal? If the motor ist connected to the controller then there is no open plug to get the signal from...

 

[amberwolf]

As I said in the other post:

But I can't think of a way for you to do this without opening up either motor or controller, or else making a battery and "pullup resistor" test rig to do it at the motor connector without controller connected, and then testing the controller at it's connector separately. If you want to try this test, I'll write up the steps.

There are some tests you can do without making any test rig, just voltage probing the indents for the hall pins around the periphery of the connector, on both controller and motor.

 

[OleyT]

As I said in the other post:

Now I think I understood. Sorry, it's just because my technical english (and my english in general) is not really high-end as you might have noticed Ok, if Grin doesn't answer then I will get an Voltmeter in the hardware store and test the different connector sites (with your help hopefully :wink: ). Just asking myself what consequences that would have if I get different signals at the connector sites.

I have two last questions for you:
Do you see any issue with driving the motor sensorless temporarily? Is it harmful for the motor itself or the other parts?
And secondly: If I have understood correctly, you are driving your vehicle sensorless as well?! Do you have any good advice how to keep the stutters, jerky phases (especially while accelerating) on a low level(avoid them. I was trying to start rolling without any assist and as soon as I reach a certain speed I will start the assistance from the motor. That works okayish but not perfectly...

 

[john61ct]

Grin publishes their "call in for support" hours

but I bet affected by COVID

 

[amberwolf]

Now I think I understood. Sorry, it's just because my technical english (and my english in general) is not really high-end as you might have noticed

Actually, it's better than a large portion of people I know and talk with that grew up here in the USA.

Ok, if Grin doesn't answer then I will get an Voltmeter in the hardware store and test the different connector sites (with your help hopefully :wink: ). Just asking myself what consequences that would have if I get different signals at the connector sites.

Basically, if the tests turn out ok on the hardware, then Grin would probably have to help with why it doesnt' work at that point, because it *should* work if all the signals are present.

I have two last questions for you:
Do you see any issue with driving the motor sensorless temporarily? Is it harmful for the motor itself or the other parts?

No, it's a completely normal operating mode. I'd guess that a large fraction of low to medium power bikes are using generic sensorless controllers (without good position detection routines, and so noisy/juddery/hard to startup from a stop) just because it is cheaper and simpler (no hall sensors needed in motor, no hall wiring, no phase/hall combination worries, etc).

And secondly: If I have understood correctly, you are driving your vehicle sensorless as well?! Do you have any good advice how to keep the stutters, jerky phases (especially while accelerating) on a low level(avoid them. I was trying to start rolling without any assist and as soon as I reach a certain speed I will start the assistance from the motor. That works okayish but not perfectly...

The rightside motor on the trike is using a generic sensorless controller and a big MXUS 450x motor. Given the 500lb+ weight of the trike with me on it, it does pretty good.

The grinfineon is running sensored, and makes startups much better. But it was sensorless at first until I found and fixed the hall connector problem in the motor cable, I forget what ti was but probably something I didnt' crimp well enough, or a pin I didnt seat well enough that backed out. When it was sensorless it was probably fairly typical of such stuff; I don't recall exactly (I'm sure my SB Cruiser thread has that info in there somewhere between last summer and winter).

Some sensorless controllers are better at it with some motors under some conditions, and worse under others.

I also tested the Incememed SFOC5 sensorless FOC controller, which usually worked pretty well (for a "beta test"), but it was not very good at starting up from a stop. Supposedly the firmware changes since then would fix that, but he's also added the option to have hall sensors. I discontinued the testing before then for a number of reasons, so I don't know if any of that works.


The new controllers I will be using once completed are a very DIY thing, over here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105711
and they are capable of sensorless only, or a mode using sensored-start / sensorless-run so that they use the best features of both modes. But you can't buy any version of the Lebowski controller off the shelf; you have to build at least some part of it; the simplest is something like that thread (mating the brainboard from one of the people that builds them to an existing powerstage). I will probably be using the sensored-start / sensorless-run mode.

 

[goatman]

As I said in the other post:

But I can't think of a way for you to do this without opening up either motor or controller, or else making a battery and "pullup resistor" test rig to do it at the motor connector without controller connected, and then testing the controller at it's connector separately. If you want to try this test, I'll write up the steps.

There are some tests you can do without making any test rig, just voltage probing the indents for the hall pins around the periphery of the connector, on both controller and motor.

the second 25amp

 

[OleyT]

Hey there,

short update: I sent back the Grinfineon Controllers from Grin. I explained the whole story to them and they told me that the symptoms point to something amiss in the motor controller. The controllers are still shipping so I don't know what was the problem in the end. I will post that in the future, maybe someone finds that helpful.

They swapped out the whole system sending me a Baserunner L10_1019 Controller, a CA3-DP for a CA3-WP and a DAux_Slim for an MFSwitch, me covering the price difference.
Today I installed the Baserunner in my Downtube battery pack (it is a standard Hailong 01 enclosure, 36V), connected the WP8 plug to the CA and the L10_1019 connector to the motor. After that I pushed the on/off button on my battery pack but nothing happens. The CA doesn't get power. Even when I push the on/off switch on the handlebar, nothing happens. The battery is fully charged. I connected the throttle alone but nothing happens.

I tried to connect the controller with my laptop and launch the phaserunner suite software but the controller doesn't get detected by my laptop.

I'm wondering now if anyone has ever installed a Baserunner controller and can tell me if the CA does get power even if the controller isn't configured with the Phaserunner software correctly. I don't know if the Controller does get power from my battery or not.

Does anyone have an idea where to start looking for the error? So frustrated...I thought the newer kits are plug and play....

 

[OleyT]

Grin did the soldering of the 5-pin connector to the +/- leads of the controller. It looks a little bit different than the old one of my battery pack (they soldered the two outter pins together instead only using one as seen on the right). Does that make any difference?

 

[amberwolf]

The CA doesn't get power. Even when I push the on/off switch on the handlebar, nothing happens.

If the CA doesn't get power, you'll need to check teh wiring harness to see where the battery positive is supplied to and from, to be sure it is reaching the CA. If it does not reach teh CA, then wherever it stops is where you will need to make a connection, from there to the CA.

Most likely it is something in your harness that has a buried wire (as other various Grin wiring stuff does) that you can use to connect to a switch, or simply directly tie to the battery positive, so that the CA would always be on whenever battery power is connected and on.

I tried to connect the controller with my laptop and launch the phaserunner suite software but the controller doesn't get detected by my laptop.

Does the BR have battery power?
Does it have battery positive on the keyswitch/lock/ignition wire as well?

If so, then do you see a com port in the PR suite's setup? If it has more than one listed, try each one. (but it should be the port that disappears whne you unplug the USB-serial cable from the ocmputer).

I'm wondering now if anyone has ever installed a Baserunner controller and can tell me if the CA does get power even if the controller isn't configured with the Phaserunner software correctly.

Shouldn't make any difference--that is up to your specific wiring harness.

 

[OleyT]

I figured out the problem with the controller. It is the MF switch. If you watch really closely you can see that one of the 5 Pins is bent. If I connect another MF switch that has 5 straight pins the controller and the CA starts right away.

I don't think there is a reasonable way to repair the 5 pin connector because the wires are so extremely thin...

The CA only starts if a working 5 pin switch is connected. Is there any way how I can shortcut that mechanism? If so, then I could just use the other AUX plug to connect another switch.

The switch version with the 5 pin connector can't be bought here in Germany as far as I know. And the switch alone isn't sold by Grin...

 

[amberwolf]

Then the switch is just providing power tot he CA, as it doesnt' have an on/off switch wire, just main power input. It accepts battery voltage to it's red wire, on the CA versions I have here, but I don't know if they changed the wire colors on the newer ones with the MF switch and higo connectors.

So whichever pin is bent is probably battery voltage to the CA (but could be battery voltage input to the MF switch, you would ahve to check Grin's documentation for the pinout of that connector).

 

[NCC1941]

Then the switch is just providing power tot he CA, as it doesnt' have an on/off switch wire, just main power input.

This isn't quite correct, for the newer Phaserunners/Baserunners paired with the newer CA3's with the waterproof connector and MF switch.

In these units, the power button on the MFswitch is actually directly toggling power to the controller itself, via the two power switch wires which were joined and hidden under the shrinkwrap on earlier Phaserunner/Baserunner models. Instead of being joined at the controller, the wire is passed up via the WP8 connector to the CA3, which passes it through to the MF Switch.

 

[LewTwo]

Then the switch is just providing power tot he CA, as it doesnt' have an on/off switch wire, just main power input.

This isn't quite correct, for the newer Phaserunners/Baserunners paired with the newer CA3's with the waterproof connector and MF switch.

In these units, the power button on the MFswitch is actually directly toggling power to the controller itself, via the two power switch wires which were joined and hidden under the shrinkwrap on earlier Phaserunner/Baserunner models. Instead of being joined at the controller, the wire is passed up via the WP8 connector to the CA3, which passes it through to the MF Switch.

Thank thee
I have a V1 Phase runner splice into a Z910 cable for my Bafang Hub Motor. I ran across two "hidden" wires (Dark Gray and White) in the Hall sensor cable. I was going nuts trying to figure out what those two hidden wires for and why they appeared to be tied together.