Help me choose the best battery!

[Alan B]

12S Multistars are 50V fully charged. Very little cabling required to make a pack.

Under load your old lead were almost certainly less than 44V. By the time these get to 44V you will have travelled a long way.

 

[Pinesal]

12S Multistars are 50V fully charged. Very little cabling required to make a pack.

Under load your old lead were almost certainly less than 44V. By the time these get to 44V you will have travelled a long way.

I'll have to check. I haven't ridden in a few months due to weather. I do have a volt meter connected to my pack and I am pretty sure it rarely dropped below 50v until I've gone like 7 or 8 miles.


What if I combined these packs?

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-high-capacity-4s-20000mah-multi-rotor-lipo-pack.html
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-high-capacity-6s-20000mah-multi-rotor-lipo-pack.html

I could put 2 22.2v and one 14.8v in series to get 59V? I want know what the charged pack would equal?

 

[Alan B]

6+6+4 = 16S
16 * 4.2 = 67.2
16 * 4.1 = 65.6

 

[Pinesal]

6+6+4 = 16S
16 * 4.2 = 67.2
16 * 4.1 = 65.6

Too much for my controller probably. I need to decide if 44.4 volts is enough. With my lead, 52v. is too slow...


WAIT, I can disassemble the packs and remove cells?


Also, this a good charger? Can you set them to charge at in voltage within it's range? https://hobbyking.com/en_us/smart-charger-150w.html I could get 3 and charge each pack? Is that the idea?

 

[ddk]

...
WAIT, I can disassemble the packs and remove cells?

About the highest cell count you can safely use with most "48 volt" controllers is 15s
-or-
15 x 4.15V or 6s + 6s + 3s = 62.5V
However, you're right on the edge of Things Going Bad. (capacitors going 'poof' etc.)
I found 14s battery packs to be fairly safe for most 36-48 volt controllers and...
As always, YMMV, or, in this case, your speed will vary (YSWV) lol.

 

[Pinesal]

...
WAIT, I can disassemble the packs and remove cells?

About the highest cell count you can safely use with most "48 volt" controllers is 15s
-or-
15 x 4.15V or 6s + 6s + 3s = 62.5V
However, you're right on the edge of Things Going Bad. (capacitors going 'poof' etc.)
I found 14s battery packs to be fairly safe for most 36-48 volt controllers and...
As always, YMMV, or, in this case, your speed will vary (YSWV) lol.

Sounds about right. So is it a good course of action to buy two 6s and one 4s and cut 2s out of the 4?

 

[ddk]

...
WAIT, I can disassemble the packs and remove cells?

About the highest cell count you can safely use with most "48 volt" controllers is 15s
-or-
15 x 4.15V or 6s + 6s + 3s = 62.5V
However, you're right on the edge of Things Going Bad. (capacitors going 'poof' etc.)
I found 14s battery packs to be fairly safe for most 36-48 volt controllers and...
As always, YMMV, or, in this case, your speed will vary (YSWV) lol.

Sounds about right. So is it a good course of action to buy two 6s and one 4s and cut 2s out of the 4?

If you feel confident to do so, do so; as this does require some care with desoldering an such.
BTW, I use a cheap vacuum solder sucker tool for this procedure.
Others probably use different techniques.

 

[Pinesal]

If you feel confident to do so, do so; as this does require some care with desoldering an such.
BTW, I use a cheap vacuum solder sucker tool for this procedure.
Others probably use different techniques.

It would be my first time doing something like that. And I would only be saving about $100 vs a ready made pack from Lunacycle... tough choice.

 

[Alan B]

If you upgrade to a sinewave controller you can both use higher voltage, and use "field weakening" at the lower voltage to increase wheel RPM.

18S or 66V is very nice.

 

[Pinesal]

If you upgrade to a sinewave controller you can both use higher voltage, and use "field weakening" at the lower voltage to increase wheel RPM.

18S or 66V is very nice.

Like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/60V-2000W-24MOSFET-70A-Brushless-DC-Sine-Wave-Motor-Controller-For-Electric-Bike-/291953537981?hash=item43f9c973bd:g:mbkAAOSwHMJYNAyL

 

[KozmoK]

I am in a similar situation. I had converted two Baja MiniBike's to electric over the last 4 months. The first one I used Lead Acid (I was a cheap noob). The second one I used a Luna 48v pack $$$ shoulda went 52v.
Now this last week I decided to upgrade the motor, controller, and battery to replace my first conversion (it was a brushed 1kw motor, 48v brushed controller,48v lead acid).
I ordered a luna triangle 52v 25r 20ah pack after scouring the internet for a week straight. I really wanted their 72v one they are currently getting certified, but I can't wait a few months. I ordered it the other night, and its going to be here tomorrow!

So I selected this pack over using lipos for these reasons:

1) Safety (seen vids and heard of horror stories of fires)
2) Charging Lipos is a pain taking in and out to charge them separately.
3) wasn't thrilled about making a wiring harness ( I was going to go with 3 6s 20.0 Multistars). The more connections plugging and unplugging all the time can wear them out and be a potential short circuit when you least expect it.
4) by the time you buy chargers, paying for hazardous shipping - your within $100-200 of a single pack of 18650's.
5) Ordering things from hobby king china sometimes can take a long time. They do not have these 6S's in the US warehouses.
The best thing about the lipos are the discharge rates and size!

Luna packs
1) High output bms (50a, 70/80 peak depending on cell type)
2) One charge plug, 1 charger - can leave it case/box without having to remove it to charge it.
3) Relatively safe! And mostly plug n play!


Now as I get more experienced I may switch to the 6S multistars. I would def invest in a smoke detector in the garage thats linked to the rest of the house smoke detectors (or get a nest)

 

[Alan B]

If you upgrade to a sinewave controller you can both use higher voltage, and use "field weakening" at the lower voltage to increase wheel RPM.

18S or 66V is very nice.

Like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/60V-2000W-24MOSFET-70A-Brushless-DC-Sine-Wave-Motor-Controller-For-Electric-Bike-/291953537981?hash=item43f9c973bd:g:mbkAAOSwHMJYNAyL

Why risk buying from ebae when there are good vendors here on ES? I guess folks like gambling.

 

[Sunder]

If you feel confident to do so, do so; as this does require some care with desoldering an such.
BTW, I use a cheap vacuum solder sucker tool for this procedure.
Others probably use different techniques.

It would be my first time doing something like that. And I would only be saving about $100 vs a ready made pack from Lunacycle... tough choice.

You don't really need a desoldering tool - you simply wait for the iron to get very hot, and melt the whole blob in one go. Now, it may seem pretty scary to have a pool of molten lead in front of you, but it is still fairly viscous (thick). You carefully wiggle it out, directing the iron where anything has set hard again, and you end up with all the solder still on the tab.

You then let it cool, attach it to the other pack, line everything up, clip it together with an alligator clip, very briefly melt the solder together, and you're done.

That all said, if all you're saving is $100, like for like, hell, go for the Lunacycle pack. I didn't know they were that cheap. In' most cases, when I've tried to get the closest premade, if the price was even vaguely comparable, I had to sacrifice on something - capacity, weight, cycle life, etc. But if whatever you're sacrificing doesn't matter to you, then $100 is nothing - one inattentive mistake can easily cost you $100 when soldering. Ask the guy who put the spare cells in front of the soldering iron stand and wondered 5 seconds later what that burning smell was... Luckily no fire.

 

[Pinesal]

I am in a similar situation. I had converted two Baja MiniBike's to electric over the last 4 months. The first one I used Lead Acid (I was a cheap noob). The second one I used a Luna 48v pack $$$ shoulda went 52v.
Now this last week I decided to upgrade the motor, controller, and battery to replace my first conversion (it was a brushed 1kw motor, 48v brushed controller,48v lead acid).
I ordered a luna triangle 52v 25r 20ah pack after scouring the internet for a week straight. I really wanted their 72v one they are currently getting certified, but I can't wait a few months. I ordered it the other night, and its going to be here tomorrow!

So I selected this pack over using lipos for these reasons:

1) Safety (seen vids and heard of horror stories of fires)
2) Charging Lipos is a pain taking in and out to charge them separately.
3) wasn't thrilled about making a wiring harness ( I was going to go with 3 6s 20.0 Multistars). The more connections plugging and unplugging all the time can wear them out and be a potential short circuit when you least expect it.
4) by the time you buy chargers, paying for hazardous shipping - your within $100-200 of a single pack of 18650's.
5) Ordering things from hobby king china sometimes can take a long time. They do not have these 6S's in the US warehouses.
The best thing about the lipos are the discharge rates and size!

Luna packs
1) High output bms (50a, 70/80 peak depending on cell type)
2) One charge plug, 1 charger - can leave it case/box without having to remove it to charge it.
3) Relatively safe! And mostly plug n play!


Now as I get more experienced I may switch to the 6S multistars. I would def invest in a smoke detector in the garage thats linked to the rest of the house smoke detectors (or get a nest)

I am really happy that you posted this. I am going to wait and hear back from you about your Luna battery. Will you be posting a review?

 

[wesnewell]

I ordered a luna triangle 52v 25r 20ah pack after scouring the internet for a week straight. I really wanted their 72v one they are currently getting certified, but I can't wait a few months. I ordered it the other night, and its going to be here tomorrow!

So I selected this pack over using lipos for these reasons:

1) Safety (seen vids and heard of horror stories of fires)
2) Charging Lipos is a pain taking in and out to charge them separately.
3) wasn't thrilled about making a wiring harness ( I was going to go with 3 6s 20.0 Multistars). The more connections plugging and unplugging all the time can wear them out and be a potential short circuit when you least expect it.
4) by the time you buy chargers, paying for hazardous shipping - your within $100-200 of a single pack of 18650's.
5) Ordering things from hobby king china sometimes can take a long time. They do not have these 6S's in the US warehouses.
The best thing about the lipos are the discharge rates and size!

Luna packs
1) High output bms (50a, 70/80 peak depending on cell type)
2) One charge plug, 1 charger - can leave it case/box without having to remove it to charge it.
3) Relatively safe! And mostly plug n play!


Now as I get more experienced I may switch to the 6S multistars. I would def invest in a smoke detector in the garage thats linked to the rest of the house smoke detectors (or get a nest)

1) Guess you've missed all the exploding 18650's that been on the news.
2) I don't take my lipo out to charge it very often. No need to ever do it. I run a 24s pack. And I sure as heck don't charge them separately. I charge the whole pack in about an hour on the bike. Try that with your 18650 pack.
3) There's no need for a wiring harness, and no need to take them apart.
4) That's just a load of crap. My 888wh 24s pack cost $217 shipped. My 600W 100.8V charger cost ~$100 shipped and I use it on multiple packs.
5) Yep. That's why I only order from the US warehouses.
Next
1) I don't call that high output. My 20C 10ah pack is rated for 200A/300A and that's not even a high output.
2) Well my charger plug has 2 wires. Couldn't find a way to do it without both a positive and negative.
3) It's no safer than rc lipo. Your just kidding yourself if you think it is. Handled and maintained properly, they're all pretty safe. Otherwise, none of them are safe. Not even lead acid.

 

[Alan B]

I am in a similar situation. I had converted two Baja MiniBike's to electric over the last 4 months. The first one I used Lead Acid (I was a cheap noob). The second one I used a Luna 48v pack $$$ shoulda went 52v.
Now this last week I decided to upgrade the motor, controller, and battery to replace my first conversion (it was a brushed 1kw motor, 48v brushed controller,48v lead acid).
I ordered a luna triangle 52v 25r 20ah pack after scouring the internet for a week straight. I really wanted their 72v one they are currently getting certified, but I can't wait a few months. I ordered it the other night, and its going to be here tomorrow!

So I selected this pack over using lipos for these reasons:

1) Safety (seen vids and heard of horror stories of fires)
2) Charging Lipos is a pain taking in and out to charge them separately.
3) wasn't thrilled about making a wiring harness ( I was going to go with 3 6s 20.0 Multistars). The more connections plugging and unplugging all the time can wear them out and be a potential short circuit when you least expect it.
4) by the time you buy chargers, paying for hazardous shipping - your within $100-200 of a single pack of 18650's.
5) Ordering things from hobby king china sometimes can take a long time. They do not have these 6S's in the US warehouses.
The best thing about the lipos are the discharge rates and size!

Luna packs
1) High output bms (50a, 70/80 peak depending on cell type)
2) One charge plug, 1 charger - can leave it case/box without having to remove it to charge it.
3) Relatively safe! And mostly plug n play!


Now as I get more experienced I may switch to the 6S multistars. I would def invest in a smoke detector in the garage thats linked to the rest of the house smoke detectors (or get a nest)

I've had the best results with Turnigy, Multistar and Luna packs. The Lipos require more work and more care - like a partial kit that needs wiring and packaging. The Luna packs are smaller, lighter, more ebike friendly and have been very easy to work with - a finished plug and play product. All of them suffer from availability - they go out of stock a lot. Don't buy Lipo from overseas - find them in a US warehouse. It is best to find a local supplier as you cannot ship damaged lithium packs - so you may need to drive them to a local supplier for repair, if needed. Avoid the cheapest Lipo, that's where the low quality cells go.

I use the Luna 72V pack on my 2WD Bonanza. It is a snug fit in the triangle bag on my bike, but it works out really well. Amazing torque and speed from a pair of hubmotors, adding the second motor totally changes the character of the bike. Details in the thread linked in my sig.

I've had better luck with Luna's Kingpan chargers than with the BMSBattery alloy chargers, so far.

The Satiator chargers from Ebikes.ca are top of the line and easily reconfigurable, and the Meanwell HLG LED supplies are excellent as well, for fixed voltage/current bulk charging.

I agree on smoke detectors above the charging area - regardless of battery.

 

[KozmoK]

wesnewel,

You came off pretty arrogant to my post. You have a high post count, so that means you probably know a lot more than I do in this subject. Did I rub you the wrong way or what?

My post was meant to be from a beginner to a beginner in the same situation, looking at the same luna pack. I don't claim I know a lot, but the less connections I have to design or make the better and safer. I gave the reasons why I chose what I chose. You can tell from all your responses that you dislike 18650 packs. I obviously don't have the talent and knowledge to build such a device as yours - it sounds fantastic!

You tell me how I can buy a 24s pack and not make a harness to join them together to plug into my motorcycle contactor? (pics please)
so you have 24s pack, made up of what six 4s packs @10ah? 10ah depending on the load might not be big enough for him. How did you join them all together to make it them series without making cables to do so? How do you balance?
My point was there is going to be some cable making/joining to make them series from x # of packs.

My point was to make it easy as possible.

Yes I have heard of Vapor batterys exploding in the news, no e-bikers packs though.

1) Guess you've missed all the exploding 18650's that been on the news.
2) I don't take my lipo out to charge it very often. No need to ever do it. I run a 24s pack. And I sure as heck don't charge them separately. I charge the whole pack in about an hour on the bike. Try that with your 18650 pack.
3) There's no need for a wiring harness, and no need to take them apart.
4) That's just a load of crap. My 888wh 24s pack cost $217 shipped. My 600W 100.8V charger cost ~$100 shipped and I use it on multiple packs.
5) Yep. That's why I only order from the US warehouses.
Next
1) I don't call that high output. My 20C 10ah pack is rated for 200A/300A and that's not even a high output.
2) Well my charger plug has 2 wires. Couldn't find a way to do it without both a positive and negative.
3) It's no safer than rc lipo. Your just kidding yourself if you think it is. Handled and maintained properly, they're all pretty safe. Otherwise, none of them are safe. Not even lead acid.

 

[wesnewell]

No, I have 12 4s packs 24s2p. The stock connectors that come on them will split in half. Just plug 6 of them together in series twice, then parallel the balance cables and make Y connectors for for the positive and negative ends that the controller plugs into. Here's how to wire it.

 

[Alan B]

No, I have 12 4s packs 24s2p. The stock connectors that come on them will split in half. Just plug 6 of them together in series twice, then parallel the balance cables and make Y connectors for for the positive and negative ends that the controller plugs into. Here's how to wire it.
View attachment 1

wesnewell likes to live on the edge. This is one mistake away from plasma fried fingers (and possibly even more sensitive parts).

 

[KozmoK]

So you do not use the balancer plugs at all? How do you know if each cell is fully charged, and not over charged?

No, I have 12 4s packs 24s2p. The stock connectors that come on them will split in half. Just plug 6 of them together in series twice, then parallel the balance cables and make Y connectors for for the positive and negative ends that the controller plugs into. Here's how to wire it.
View attachment 1

 

[wesnewell]

On a 2p pack I parallel them using the balance plugs. I just use battery medics set for 4.2V discharge to keep from overcharging. Using 4s packs requires 6 medics for 24s, but I made adapters long ago that tuns 3 4s plus into 2 6s plugs, so I only need 4 medics. That way if I want to split the pack into 12s sections I can balance charge using a 12s charger also. Haven't done that in a year or so.

Of course if you use 6s packs this isn't required. But the 4s packs are cheaper per wh.

 

[KozmoK]

Your way looks too complicated for me right now, it involves rewiring, making a harness (the batterys I would get would be the multistars with xt90's, and you can't split them in half), and combining the balance plugs. And with my luck
a connection would get loose and start a fire.

This is more my speed:

 

[tomjasz]

Your way looks too complicated for me right now, it involves rewiring, making a harness (the batterys I would get would be the multistars with xt90's, and you can't split them in half), and combining the balance plugs. And with my luck
a connection would get loose and start a fire.

This is more my speed:

Be advised that some warranties require YOU do the repairs. Please read all warranties before purchase. KNOW what you agreed to.

 

[Alan B]

Recently I saw a video where some ebike packs were disassembled on-camera. The current Luna packs looked ok, and some of the other popular, supposedly "great" brands were not even as good.

I think that the battery vendors, including Luna, are improving. At least the good vendors are. The competition is encouraging improvement, as well as the shipping regulations and inspections. Every time a vendor has a problem with their products they have an opportunity to improve it. The good vendors are the ones who actually learn from the issues and make the improvements.

The Luna pack you buy today is likely very different from the one eTrike has, I don't know the age of that one, and I haven't seen a thread showing what he has found in it, which would be good to see. As a new company Luna has ramped up pretty fast, and some of their packs were likely built for them by other vendors. Luna appears to be taking those problems seriously and making those improvements.

I bought a half dozen different Luna packs over the last year, and so far no problems with any of them. We've seen very few problems with Luna packs on the forums. I accidentally ran one of mine totally flat, tripping the BMS LVC, and the capacity was very close to the spec. They have enough current to handle the medium power motors in the 30 to 50 amp range. For my higher power Cromotor the Lipo is needed to provide 80 amps or more.

I have a friend who has a couple of ebike packs from another US vendor, a 72V 20AH pack at about $1200 each. He's had them repaired several times, blocks of cells have failed, they fall short of capacity and fail when the rated current is drawn from them, and even at reduced currents they failed. So they are charging $1200 for $300 worth of cells built into a pack. With that you get low quality BMS's and cheap chargers. The markup on many battery packs is HUGE. I never seriously considered trying a commercial 18650 pack until Luna brought the prices down out of the stratosphere. Hobbyking and Luna have done a lot for us by adjusting price expectations on high capacity batteries. Even if you don't buy a battery from Luna, most of the other vendors are bringing their prices down, so you still benefit from the competition.

I use XT connectors, both the 60's and the 90's. They depend on the wire dipping into a solder puddle for both electrical and mechanical connection, and most depend on heatshrink for their insulation. They cannot be crimped which is faster and provides a more reliable mechanical and more consistent as well as lower resistance electrical connections. They do work, but you have to be careful not to melt the cheap plastic which is not rated for soldering temperatures. Making a whole harness with XT connectors is not fun (I've done it, 12 bricks in that pack, so 24 XT90 connectors total in the installed harness, not pretty), they don't lie nicely between the Lipo bricks. The ones Luna uses appear to be higher than average quality, with a snap on insulation hood and internal anti-spark resistors, and of course only one for discharge and one for charging so not a bunch of them to deal with. I'm using them but not thrilled with them. I can't think of any industrial power connectors that use solder connections like these. I don't think they would meet NRTL standards for electrical safety and reliability (which isn't required for Ebikes, but may be at some point).

 

[Pinesal]

I appreciate all the help. I really do but this thread has me more conflicted than anything. I thought it was generally agreed that lifpo4 was the best choice for ebikes but now I believe that there isnt an agreed apon, best type. It feels like it's still a risk no matter what I choose.