help with id of components

[hoserrb]

while looking to buy a used battery, i stumbled upon and ebike and ended up buying it

(i should mention here that ebikes seem like a drug, i started with one 15 year old crystalyte front wheel, and now own 4 ebikes)

anyway this bike was adv as not working, no charger but i hoped the battery may be ok. so for 200$ ive now got a whole bike instead of just the battery.
rig a charger up and charge it, fix a loose connection and seems to work just fine. rolls up to about 20mph just fine (messed with display settings but couldnt get it it go faster, must be speed limiting) pedal assist works. (the contoller is 15amp max so perhaps thats it as well, smallest one ive seen)

im trying to figure out what it is. The decal says Trillium and a quick google search goes here http://www.ontarioebikes.ca/ . not much there but the logo looks right. looks to be a regional outfit that puts together ebikes form other components, maybe not even in business anymore
im wondering is anyone can identify what these components are from? im adding some pics, about the only thing i found was maybe a connection to iGo , as some serial numbers on the wheel are similar to one of their bikes

any info or thots greatly appreciated.

it looks like a very decent bike, disc brakes, good forks, very well built at the rear drop-out, pretty tickled it works.

 

[Chalo]

That bike is so generic, it might as well be a kit homebuild. If you regard each of its components as no-name eBay stuff, you'll get on with it fine.

 

[Dauntless]

https://m.facebook.com/RodriguezBicycles/

Are you near Seattle? I don't really know for sure but I think Trillium is supposed to be hand made bikes by the people at the link. I think they do electrics, I think a lot of things I can't check on because my good ole' internet froze and the phone is a rough way to look this up.

If you're in Canada maybe your link is right.

 

[amberwolf]

Chalo is about right. I don't see anything that indicates it is a closed-system OEM ebike (like Stromer, etc).

I couldn't find info on the individual parts, but a google search on the "brand name"
https://www.google.com/search?q=trillium+ebike
finds the seller pretty quick
http://www.ontarioebikes.ca
and a search on their site name finds some subpages
https://www.google.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ontarioebikes.ca%2F
some of which don't exist anymore, so you'd have to use the Wayback Machine to see if they're archived anywhere, like this
https://web.archive.org/web/2019*/http://ontarioebikes.ca/about.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190829012259/http://ontarioebikes.ca/about.html

Unfortunately they have a retardedly-designed webpage, which has no links to any of it's subpages, so to visit the pages that have any info about anything at all of theirs, you must use the google search links to get to them. Great way to run a business is to hide everything from your potential buyers. :lol: Since they made it that hard to access, I gave up trying to find any info on the bike you have, but if you poke around there I bet they have something.

You can't contact them either, because they're "closed for the season", which apparently means they don't give a crap about making any money or helping customers (potential or existing) until they're good and danged ready.

The archived version of their "about" page (which doesnt' even exist on their actual site anymore!) has this contact info, if you want to try them out:

COMPARISON SHOPPING

Ian and Jo Ann Fraser

For more info please Email Us
sales@ontarioebikes.ca

Ontario E Bikes
2149 Quin Mo Lac Rd.
Tweed , ON.
K0K - 3J0
613-920-1847

BTW, this is what their page has to say about their bikes:

Trillium E-Bikes™ are designed in Canada , by Canadians , for Canadians.
We have partnered with well respected overseas manufacturers to bring
you premium quality e-bikes at affordable prices. All our e-bikes
are equipped with quality brand name components that you can trust.
Parts and service are readily available at any bike shop in Canada.

I might be a bit cynical (after having seen so many situations like this), but the first sentence probably means that they came up with a brand name and drew up a logo to go with it that they could have put on a bike, and found a cool looking one (or several) in a catalog of available generic ebikes to put it on. The next sentence usually means that they contracted with a Chinese generic ebike company to ship them containers of a bike in their catalog that looked cool, with that nifty logo they came up with stickered onto it. The third sentence might be mostly true...the last sentence is not. I seriously doubt that there are any bike shops in any country that carry just the right parts to service any of the e-bike parts of this bike (though many probably do have whatever is needed to service or replace the bike parts of this bike).

That archived about page also says this:

We have spent a lot of time sourcing our e-bikes from well established
manufacturers who supply some of the big name brands in the marketplace.
We buy direct from the manufacturers and sell direct to the customers ,
thus eliminating extra " thumbs in the pie " that add to the cost of
the e-bikes. If you shop around you'll start to recognize some of our
e-bike models , sold by other companies with similar components ,
at much higher prices.

which implies that it's basically about what I said above...even if they *did* spend time finding *good* generic ebikes to slap their logo on.

The "iGo" stuff is likely just another example of that, as are dozens of other "brands". Sometimes that's useful since one brand might not give any specs, another (findable with google image searches, sometimes) might have complete info about at least one part of the same bike, or even slip and give the manufacturer name (sometimes without realizing it is embedded into the part or serial numbers of something, or some other model info, etc., that isn't printed on the bike itself).


Back to the original question.... at a guess, it's a generic 500w DD hubmotor. what would be called a "9C clone" (nine continents, 9cont, etc), wound for a 48v system to give you around 20mph top speed in a 26" wheel. (meaning, even with a non-speed-limited controller, it probably wouldn't do much more than that unless you up the voltage proportionally). A 15A controller means around 750w max power, and that's probably really 15A peak and more like 10A continuous, but you'd ahve to test that with a wattmeter under conditions that would provide that much load to find out.

You can probably use the http://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html with the 9C 2807 or 2808 versions to figure out what the motor itself could do for you, given a different battery and controller. First simulate them with the ones youve got (or closest they ahve to them in the list if you don't want to use custom numbers), until you see that it gets you what you really actually get. When you find the motor that does that, then you can simulate with other batteries and controllers to see what gets you what you want out of it, then go buy parts like that to upgrade them, if that's your goal.

It's not a bad deal for a couple hundred bucks, since it works--the main issue you will probably have is that the numbers on things indicate its' probably about four years old, so the battery may have age-related capacity/capability loss in addition to those induced by whatever usage it has had.

Some advice Dogman Dan has given from time to time: always consider used batteries to be worth zero dollars, until proven otherwise...it will make you happier when you find something good, and less sad when it doesn't do what you hoped.

 

[hoserrb]

Chalo is about right. I don't see anything that indicates it is a closed-system OEM ebike (like Stromer, etc).

I couldn't find info on the individual parts, but a google search on the "brand name"
https://www.google.com/search?q=trillium+ebike
finds the seller pretty quick
http://www.ontarioebikes.ca
and a search on their site name finds some subpages
https://www.google.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ontarioebikes.ca%2F
some of which don't exist anymore, so you'd have to use the Wayback Machine to see if they're archived anywhere, like this
https://web.archive.org/web/2019*/http://ontarioebikes.ca/about.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190829012259/http://ontarioebikes.ca/about.html

Unfortunately they have a retardedly-designed webpage, which has no links to any of it's subpages, so to visit the pages that have any info about anything at all of theirs, you must use the google search links to get to them. Great way to run a business is to hide everything from your potential buyers. :lol: Since they made it that hard to access, I gave up trying to find any info on the bike you have, but if you poke around there I bet they have something.

You can't contact them either, because they're "closed for the season", which apparently means they don't give a crap about making any money or helping customers (potential or existing) until they're good and danged ready.

The archived version of their "about" page (which doesnt' even exist on their actual site anymore!) has this contact info, if you want to try them out:

COMPARISON SHOPPING

Ian and Jo Ann Fraser

For more info please Email Us
sales@ontarioebikes.ca

Ontario E Bikes
2149 Quin Mo Lac Rd.
Tweed , ON.
K0K - 3J0
613-920-1847

BTW, this is what their page has to say about their bikes:

Trillium E-Bikes™ are designed in Canada , by Canadians , for Canadians.
We have partnered with well respected overseas manufacturers to bring
you premium quality e-bikes at affordable prices. All our e-bikes
are equipped with quality brand name components that you can trust.
Parts and service are readily available at any bike shop in Canada.

I might be a bit cynical (after having seen so many situations like this), but the first sentence probably means that they came up with a brand name and drew up a logo to go with it that they could have put on a bike, and found a cool looking one (or several) in a catalog of available generic ebikes to put it on. The next sentence usually means that they contracted with a Chinese generic ebike company to ship them containers of a bike in their catalog that looked cool, with that nifty logo they came up with stickered onto it. The third sentence might be mostly true...the last sentence is not. I seriously doubt that there are any bike shops in any country that carry just the right parts to service any of the e-bike parts of this bike (though many probably do have whatever is needed to service or replace the bike parts of this bike).

That archived about page also says this:

We have spent a lot of time sourcing our e-bikes from well established
manufacturers who supply some of the big name brands in the marketplace.
We buy direct from the manufacturers and sell direct to the customers ,
thus eliminating extra " thumbs in the pie " that add to the cost of
the e-bikes. If you shop around you'll start to recognize some of our
e-bike models , sold by other companies with similar components ,
at much higher prices.

which implies that it's basically about what I said above...even if they *did* spend time finding *good* generic ebikes to slap their logo on.

The "iGo" stuff is likely just another example of that, as are dozens of other "brands". Sometimes that's useful since one brand might not give any specs, another (findable with google image searches, sometimes) might have complete info about at least one part of the same bike, or even slip and give the manufacturer name (sometimes without realizing it is embedded into the part or serial numbers of something, or some other model info, etc., that isn't printed on the bike itself).


Back to the original question.... at a guess, it's a generic 500w DD hubmotor. what would be called a "9C clone" (nine continents, 9cont, etc), wound for a 48v system to give you around 20mph top speed in a 26" wheel. (meaning, even with a non-speed-limited controller, it probably wouldn't do much more than that unless you up the voltage proportionally). A 15A controller means around 750w max power, and that's probably really 15A peak and more like 10A continuous, but you'd ahve to test that with a wattmeter under conditions that would provide that much load to find out.

You can probably use the http://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html with the 9C 2807 or 2808 versions to figure out what the motor itself could do for you, given a different battery and controller. First simulate them with the ones youve got (or closest they ahve to them in the list if you don't want to use custom numbers), until you see that it gets you what you really actually get. When you find the motor that does that, then you can simulate with other batteries and controllers to see what gets you what you want out of it, then go buy parts like that to upgrade them, if that's your goal.

It's not a bad deal for a couple hundred bucks, since it works--the main issue you will probably have is that the numbers on things indicate its' probably about four years old, so the battery may have age-related capacity/capability loss in addition to those induced by whatever usage it has had.

Some advice Dogman Dan has given from time to time: always consider used batteries to be worth zero dollars, until proven otherwise...it will make you happier when you find something good, and less sad when it doesn't do what you hoped.

wow, thanks a bunch, thats helpful info im sure this is the right place, i am in canada
i emailed but got an autoreply, closed for season, wouldnt be suprised if they are closed for good. hard to believe a successful company works like this.

its a strange mix of parts, almost certainly either slapped together stuff or total buy and put on a sticker, for what its worth, the decals look crap and almost afterthought. the bike itself is far better quality than the e-component i feel

the original owner said it hadn't run in 18 months and although it started, level showed low it would barely go and quit, showed 45.5V . charged it 4 hrs with a 3 amp charger, showed 53.5v i think iirc. went 10 min full batt/no pedal till i got too cold, no issues so hope its gonna be ok. the odo read 660miles, if it hadnt been reset, not much. i may open it to see what kind of cells its made from
your comment on the used battery, this is a struggle. im trying to buy 24ah at 48v for another bike and the price of new is killer, and the asking price of used makes me hesitate. could be a good deal but lay out $400 and doesnt perform, ouch

 

[amberwolf]

the original owner said it hadn't run in 18 months and although it started, level showed low it would barely go and quit, showed 45.5V . charged it 4 hrs with a 3 amp charger, showed 53.5v i think iirc. went 10 min full batt/no pedal till i got too cold, no issues so hope its gonna be ok. the odo read 660miles, if it hadnt been reset, not much. i may open it to see what kind of cells its made from

Most likely whatever the loose connection you fixed was the only problem it had, and the sitting unused is what drained the battery (who knows if they charged it back up after their last ride). I would recommend, just in case the battery is unbalanced, to leave it on the charger after it finishes the charge for at least several hours, and preferably a few days, whenever you can be there to monitor it the whole time (in case something goes wrong, because as unlikely as it is to actually happen, any battery of any kind can fail dramatically at any time regardless of type, brand, quality, protections, etc).

If there isn't a problem, the best thing is usually not to open things up that you don't have to, because sometimes that causes problems in the process. I"m the type that would open everything up just to see what it looks like inside, though I do this a lot less nowadays until something goes wrong or I need to modify it. If you might be using this in other than dry good weather, you might open things up to check waterproofing (or add drain holes at the bottommost points of anything that doesn't have them, because water *will* get into things you couldn't imagine possible :lol: ).

your comment on the used battery, this is a struggle. im trying to buy 24ah at 48v for another bike and the price of new is killer, and the asking price of used makes me hesitate. could be a good deal but lay out $400 and doesnt perform, ouch

A battery that large is pretty hefty tag for a good one, especially if it needs to supply high current or has other above-average usage needs to meet. Price tags I've seen range from $400 (for the cheapest "who knows?" type of pack) to over $800+ (for purportedly good cells, build quality, etc).

But a used one is harder to verify what's in it; that it can actually do the things you want, since the original owners hardly ever know anything about what they have, and rarely remember exactly where they bought it from (or the place is gone, so also the info about it). Rarely is all the info you need available on the labels.

Another issue with used is that the owners don't often really know how much it's been used, or how it's been stored, conditioned, charged, etc. So you don't know much, if anything, about it's condition until you test it in real life usage. And of course, it has no warranty. (not that the warranty on new ones is worth much, since most come direct from China and you can't actually ship it back to them at anything like a reasonable cost, if you can do it at all, because of hazmat rules).

Sometimes you can get a really good deal...sometimes not so much. If you trust those it's coming from, because of experience with them, and you know htey know what they're doing, it's a safe enough bet to get used stuff...but that's not typically the case.

Another potential but rare issue is that if it's a battery that's easy enough to remove from a bike, it could be stolen, especially if it's a deal that seems "too good to be true", and/or the person selling it knows literally nothing about it and cant' answer questions about the bike it came from, doesn't ahve it's charger, etc.



So here's another option: build your own from used EV cells. If you're willing to learn a bit about batteries, wiring, etc., (if you don't already know), then there are good deals like from BatteryHookup and the like, or potentially from local junkyards or "craigslist" wrecked-car deals, for some of the easy-to-repurpose bolt-together cells or modules. THey won't have a BMS so you'd either have to buy one ($30-$100 depending on features/etc), but they'll likely be much better quality cells, even used, than the stuff most ebike packs are made from. If you're interested in the idea, we can discuss more about the details of your project that needs this battery, and figure out what would meed the needs of that project and where you might get them.

 

[hoserrb]

ive watched the building vids about batteries, (have even dissasembled some dewalt tool packs , found the good batteries and made one good one out of 2, crude with a soldering iron but was tossing them anyway so). i believe its outside my skillset and toolset. have been talking to a fellow who deals in components and builds/sells batteries, he'll put one together for buck a battery if i bring him the cells. there are a couple of folks ive seen locally selling good quality/checked 18650s for as low as $3, usually scavenged from some laptops i think . by the time youre built its still 500$or more. most cheap salvage packs from automotive ive seen are 26650s

so some props to the bike company. the guy emailed me back with the specs of that bike.
http://www.ontarioebikes.ca/muskoka-a.html

The " MUSKOKA "

$ 1,999.99 CAD

SPRING SALE PRICE - $ 1,595.00

The " Muskoka " is a nice compact mountain style e-bike ,
with lots of torque in the 48V 500W rear hub motor.
The Shimano 21 Speed Shimano Tourney derailleur
offers a wide range of options to tackle the steepest
hill or cruise along on a wide open stretch of level
terrain. Front and rear Tektro Aries disc brakes
provide great stopping power. Kenda MTB 26" x 1.95" tires
provide a rugged durable ride , while the adjustable
front suspension forks smooth out the rough terrain.

Ideally , the rider would be 5' 7" - 5' 9" in height with
a 30" - 32" inseam and weigh between 160 and 170 lbs.

FRAME 17 " 6061 aluminium alloy
INSEAM 30" - 32"
RIDER HEIGHT 5'7" - 5'9"
STANDOVER HEIGHT 29 "
COLOUR Black
FRONT FORK ZOOM adjustable suspension
HANDLE BAR/STEM PROMAX Aluminum Alloy
WHEEL CNC sidewall rim , 26" x 1.95"
TIRE KENDA MTB 26" x 1.95"
SADDLE POST PROMAX aluminum alloy
SADDLE VELO padded leather
DERAILLEUR SHIMANO TOURNEY 21 speed
MUDGUARD F/R Alloy - Included
REAR RACK Aluminum Alloy - Included
BRAKES F/R TEKTRO ARIES disc brake
MOTOR 48V BAFANG 8FUN BPM with Hall sensor ,
500W nomimal - 750W peak power .
CONTROLLER 48V 25A 9 mosfets
BATTERY 48V 12AH SAMSUNG Lithium Ion - Rear Rack
CHARGING 48V 2A , 4-6 hrs. , 700 - 800 cycles
DISPLAY : LCD - Multi Function with 5 power levels,
pdf logo Instruction Manual
NET WEIGHT 20 KG.
BATTERY WEIGHT 4 KG.
LOAD CAPACITY 80 KG.
THROTTLE Right Hand Half Twist Throttle.
MAXIMUM SPEED 32 KM/H on a public roadway.
TRAVEL DISTANCE 40 km Throttle , 70 km - 100 km - Pedal Assist.
WARRANTY 1 year on frame , battery , motor ;
30 days on tires and brakes.

 

[amberwolf]

ive watched the building vids about batteries, (have even dissasembled some dewalt tool packs , found the good batteries and made one good one out of 2, crude with a soldering iron but was tossing them anyway so). i believe its outside my skillset and toolset. have been talking to a fellow who deals in components and builds/sells batteries, he'll put one together for buck a battery if i bring him the cells. there are a couple of folks ive seen locally selling good quality/checked 18650s for as low as $3, usually scavenged from some laptops i think . by the time youre built its still 500$or more. most cheap salvage packs from automotive ive seen are 26650s

FWIW, it's quite likely you would get a much better pack if it's built out of stuff like that which has been individually QCd, though many laptop cells are designed for capacity rather than power output, so it depends on your specific project needs if they would work without a lot of them paralleled. Of the many packs people post here for troubleshooting issues with, it's evident in many of them that the cells used were random and not QCd or matched first, which leads to longterm and sometimes shortterm problems that can be severe, depending on usage vs quality of cells and degree of mismatch. Actual build quality is likely to be much higher with a known-good local-builder as well (but if you don't know how good they are, you can also run into people just don't do it any better than the average ebike pack factory for one reason or another ).

Also, if building a pack anyway, I would not use those types of cells, where you need to interconnect a bunch of small cells. I would use the larger-capacity flat cells that bolt together, or the modules (of whatever kind of cells) that are already the right number of series cells (13s or 14s) to run 48v / 52v systems, that you can just stick a BMS on and go. This is what I did for SB Cruiser, and what a number of others here have done, both because it is very easy to do, and doesnt' require a bunch of tools or specialized methods/skills. Cost is less because of the latter, as you really only need to buy the cells and whatever wires are used to connect them, and find or make a box to fit them in, or just get a module and then it's already connected inside and may already be in a box. Some of the modules might require rewiring the internal bolt-together connections, as they may have the right number of cells, but wired so they're half the voltage but more than twice the Ah you need.

Some random examples that might be easily adaptable, depending on your project specifics. Some are largeformat cells that can be reconfigured, some are prebuilt modules of small cells that woudlnt' need that, the last one is something you could take to the guy that builds packs to have him just separate sections of a couple of modules into the voltage you want, etc:
https://batteryhookup.com/products/lg-chem-4p-modules-60ah-stackable
https://batteryhookup.com/products/nissan-leaf-battery-module-gen-1
https://batteryhookup.com/products/panasonic-48v-power-module-13s-6-4a-300wh
https://batteryhookup.com/products/samsung-8s-lithium-ion-29-6v-60ah-1-776kwh-module
https://batteryhookup.com/products/bmw-oem-5s-19-2v-75ah-1-44kwh-out-of-case
https://batteryhookup.com/products/bmz-samsung-48v-13s7p-704wh-module-with-bms?variant=37801692954786
https://batteryhookup.com/products/case-with-2x-36v-a123-lifepo4-736wh-modules

Another one that has way more in it than you need, so you could sell of the rest to fund your part of it
https://jag35.com/collections/lithium-batteries/products/samsung-sdi-ess-energy-storage-battery-16s-60-volt-used-13-2-kwh-rack-mount-mega-3-3


The one catch with these is that they will be basically big "blocks" of battery, so it depends on your specific project whether they'll fit the space/shape/volume you have available. That's something you'd have to determine yourself unless you are willing to give us project details so we can help you find stuff that will "just work" for you.

Batteryhookup.com and Jag35.com have those sorts of things, there are likely places in canada that do too (to save on import duties and possibly shipping).

so some props to the bike company. the guy emailed me back with the specs of that bike.
http://www.ontarioebikes.ca/muskoka-a.html

That's good; at least we know they're still around and helpful.