High performance & durability Cannondale Semi Recumbent

[neptronix]

OK. I realized that if i rotated the eccentric bottom bracket counterclockwise by 45 degrees, i'd get ~12mm of extra distance between the seat and the pedals. That's exactly the amount of distance i need to bolt the battery rack on in the right place, and give both me and the battery a better weight balance..

But by moving the BB, i would have needed a chain that's 0.5 links longer... it is just a hair too short

So i decided to try pulling the mid drive off and replacing it with a big floppy ass chain.

But the chain now needs idlers, otherwise it eats into the frame when you shift into 2 of the gears. So i cut an old derailleur up and bolted it on to the frame in a random bolt hole that suspiciously looks like the perfect place for an idler, should the mid drive be removed.. ( thanks, cannondale engineer! )



The pedaling now feels a bit more direct, but the ghetto ~9T idler is loud and sketchy. I have a 13T derailleur that i could use instead. Also, it takes a 52T to match my previous gearing ( 0-25mph ). I will likely need a huge ~70T to hit the 30mph top pedaling speed i require. Which is a huge negative for aesthetics.

If i keep the mid drive off, the lower chain also droops significantly and could get snagged on things. The larger the chainring, the bigger the problem. So ultimately i need a tensioner on the bottom as well. I will probably end up in the same place in regards to drivetrain friction.

If this was just going to be an acoustic bike, i'd slap a uber range 12 speed cassette on the rear, throw two tensioners at it, and call it a day because a ~50T chainring would be fine and dandy.

I think the thing to do is to reinstall the mid drive and experiment with some different front/mid chainring sizes. There is going to be a combination that gives good chain tension. Then, i can have my cake and eat it too. So i'll head to the bike collective this weekend and pick up some chainrings so i can sort this out.

What a pain in the ass this bike has been.. I can't wait for my Bike E to arrive. It will have a kit and battery on it in record time.
However, this yellow dreamboat of a bike is worth the hassle.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Certainly does seem like a PITA to get the gearing right on that thing!

Be sure to start a new thread for the BikeE when it arrives and let us know. Keen to see what you do with it.

Cheers

 

[neptronix]

Yup, bike E thread's gotta be separate. This thread is already noisy enough.

Leg suck sounds terrifying. I've never used pedal clips or any other foot holding device because my tibial torsion wouldn't allow for it. Is leg suck more likely when using such devices?

As promised, here's a vid of the cannondale being ridden acoustically.

[youtube]5Zw-qJcOGpg[/youtube]

 

[amberwolf]

Anything that lets your leg or foot touch the moving ground underneath you could let the ground catch your leg/foot and pull it underneath the seat.

This doesnt' usually happen on saddle type bikes even when they're low-rider feet-forward types because you're still astride the saddle.

But on a 'bent, it's usually more like a chair, and you can't just swing your leg backward to keep this from happening like you could on a saddle. (especially with the side bars on many suspended-mesh seats that stick out past the mesh)


This kind of thing is probably what fractured my fibia just above the ankle in my crash in the Death Race on CrazyBike2. If I'd managed to keep my legs in and on the cranks when I slid out on the hairpin turn, I'd've been fine. I *was* able to do that in a similar crash in a previous race when I went off the track, and just had the outer layer of my knee/shin guards torn.


On the SB Cruiser trike, if I were to put my feet down and actually get traction on the road while moving, I could potentially amputate them at the ankles with the forward edge of the cargo box under the seat.

So I make sure not to do that.

 

[neptronix]

Pretty terrifying shit. OK - what can we do to prevent it - other than switching back to ass pounder bikes? :lol:

I think the crash you sustained might be just as bad on an upright, if not worse. I nearly destroyed my shoulder flying off my cargo bike in 2012. It took 4 years to rehab that shoulder. My good leg, which has always been in charge of making up for the leg with tibial torsion, took the hit. It crippled me for a while.

I've noticed that i have an instinct to keep my leg up on the cannondale when goofy things happen. But goofy things have never happened at high speed. Even when i was just barely adept at learning to ride it. I think actually that a CLWB style recumbent feels a lot more native and whatever body language i had on an upright bike is mostly preserved.

I've considered getting some heel straps. Though i'm not sure if those are really helpful.

 

[amberwolf]

Pretty terrifying shit. OK - what can we do to prevent it - other than switching back to ass pounder bikes? :lol:

Set things up so your feet can't come off the pedals.

But...then you can't put your feet down to keep from falling over at low speed, and you'd need extendable outriggers like AussieJester used on his old Custom Cruiser build like a decade back.

I think the crash you sustained might be just as bad on an upright, if not worse.

Oh it would definitely have been much worse on an upright, because CrazyBike2's seat frame and the limited range of movement of the remote-steering handlebars acted as a "cage" to keep any other part of me from touching the ground. I think in the time I rode that bike, I skidded sideways four or five times, and that one was the only injury I had at all. The rest of them I just seriously scraped up the bike itself. :lol:

On an upright I'd've roadrashed everything on that side, and possibly injured joints, etc, and I probably wouldn't have remained on the bike either, possibly rolling and breaking things as limbs flopped around.

I've had quite a few such sideslide (rear losing traction) crashes over the decades of riding pedal bikes, and even a few on DayGLo Avenger after I started working out electric drives for it.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

This is why I use cleats. Specifically Shimano SPD cleats wound out to be as loose as possible.

They won't pop out under normal riding conditions, but they are very easy to release from when needed.

After over a decade of using SPD cleats it's become so second nature to me to clip in/out I don't have any concerns with them at all.

The only down side is I release from them so intuitively now I've even done it a number of times when crashing which kind of defeats the purpose to a degree. :lol:

Cheers

 

[neptronix]

Oh it would definitely have been much worse on an upright, because CrazyBike2's seat frame and the limited range of movement of the remote-steering handlebars acted as a "cage" to keep any other part of me from touching the ground. I think in the time I rode that bike, I skidded sideways four or five times, and that one was the only injury I had at all. The rest of them I just seriously scraped up the bike itself. :lol:

See that's what i was thinking about a recumbent just being a safer kind of bike.
I took a toss on a upright and had my left side nearly destroyed for years. You fell a bunch of times and eventually broke a fibula, while racing.

I do plan to eventually add some safety features but i'm not willing to actually put them to the test until my bone is one piece. :lol:

On an upright I'd've roadrashed everything on that side, and possibly injured joints, etc, and I probably wouldn't have remained on the bike either, possibly rolling and breaking things as limbs flopped around.

I've had quite a few such sideslide (rear losing traction) crashes over the decades of riding pedal bikes, and even a few on DayGLo Avenger after I started working out electric drives for it.

Dude, i took a hit when i was 270 pounds, and hit the concrete at 20mph unexpectedly. It was frocking brutal. It made me never want to ride anything faster than a 500w geared motor for a while. When i get a moment i am putting a large front wheel on this bike.

All this talk got me thinking about what could make a recumbent safer. I had an idea. How about a dustbin style fairing that extends along the entire bottom of the bike. Sort of like a canoe bottom.



Imagine this. Your legs specifically only have little holes to stick out. What's the likelihood that a sudden disruption to your feet is gonna result in you precisely putting your feet in those holes? unlikely. Probably what happens is that your feet touch chloroplast, and you have a chance to kick the up or at least hit the brakes and coast down.

In the worst case scenario, the coroplast digs into your skin and you still get screwed up, but a dustbin fairing might improve aerodynamics and safety in one fell swoop. It'd also be easier to bolt on this particular bike. hmmmmmmmm

 

[neptronix]

I've been experimenting with aerodynamics a bit and realized that if i moved my arms in, i could gain some speed. That makes sense because i have super wide BMX bars! So i decided to grab some bar ends and make some bars that will allow me to tuck in..



I call this the recumbent superman position.

It does seem like it gives me an extra MPH or two. If i want to truck up a steady 0.5% grade at 20mph, i'm gonna have to take my hands off the bars and get into the superman, just to keep up speed.

The bars are in a bit of a funny location because my external fixator would hit certain things on the bar if it was low enough.. :lol:

The battery mount is bolted on, and i feel like it's fairly solid. I do feel like i need to add some reinforcement to prevent side to side motion. Currently thinking about that before i strap the ~15lb battery back on again.





On tonight's ride, i found a piece of plastic that looked like the approximate shape of a fairing. When i got home and placed it on my BMX handlebars, it was a perfect fit. What are the chances of finding a free fairing on the ground? :lol:





What i'd like to do with this fairing is bolt some other stuff on to it and make it into something a little more substantial. It's made of a tough kind of plastic, so i imagine bolting coroplast to it would be mechanically sound, given that i'm using fat washers, etc.
I'm really excited to make a fairing out of it


What's interesting about riding the recumbent is that you have a better view than an upright. You can spot more things in the urban landscape. I notice that i've been missing some things from riding fast on an upright with the head pointed down. I'm noticing more of such:

1) Trash ( and sometimes free fairings ) lying on the ground ( you're closer to it, so you can see it better )
2) Fruit trees
3) A better view of pedestrians
4) Wild urban coroplast to make more fairings out of.
5) The faces of anyone driving something other than a Truck/SUV because you're eye level height with most drivers.

 

[neptronix]

Oh by the way, eliminating the mid drive was a losing game. I upgraded to a 13T idler but pedaling is still loud and vibratory. I imagine that i need a much larger idler, more like 20T. That's gonna cost me another $50-$100. Screw that.

I'm also not noticing an advantage from eliminating the mid drive, but i think a part of that is the idler that is awfully loud ( therefore probably making friction )..

Since i've solved the battery mounting issue and the BikeE arrives in the middle of next week, i've decided to convert this to electric the next time i get some garage time. :thumb:

 

[amberwolf]

Use a chainring or sprocket as an idler, if you're not already. There's a lot less noise if it's on teeth shaped for the chain instead of a simple round surface. If you have an old Shimano Megarange derailer laying around, the plastic idlers on those can be fairly large; don't recall the tooth count though.

Or take the pawls out of an old freewheel, and modify a rear hub so it will bolt to the spot you need. Put the sprocket size you need on the freewheel, and space it with other sprockets or plastic rings, whatever that will line it up with the chain.

I did something like this to route my brother's trike's chain downward and then rearward, though you would be using only one chain rather than two like I did (I needed a gear ratio change too).

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80951&start=50#p1376057

 

[docnjoj]

I have always had concerns about SPD type pedals on any 2 wheeler. I have ridden my tadpole trike for about 10 years with them with no problems at all. As long as you don't have to balance, clipless pedals are simply great and prevent leg suck!
Of course, trikes are safe also compared to 2 wheelers. Just my humble opinion.
otherDoc

 

[wturber]

I have always had concerns about SPD type pedals on any 2 wheeler.

I've ridden them for years on my folder and my road bike. The only problem I ever had was when I got my cleats really dirty from walking on a dusty road and they didn't release quickly. So I tipped over at about 1/2 mph still clipped in. Oops. But lesson learned and never repeated.

 

[neptronix]

Went back to the bike collective today in search of the ultimate rare part: an odd toothed sprocket somewhere near 22T and 32T.

I know these damn things exist. I've seen them on eBay. Are they rare? hell yeah. Are they expensive? hell yeah. But not expensive at the bike collective!

I flung through their chainring bins for what seems like an hour and found, amongst easily 300 chainrings, a 29T and a 41T. :lol:

So i bought the 29T, except it used a 5 hole chainring, so i had to throw a crank at the bike too. The silver color is not my preference, but later i will paint it black.

Original ratios were 32T to 22T. I've changed it to a 29T to 24T for a net reduction of 1 tooth, which makes the chain tension *perfectly* in that eccentric adjustment that pushes the pedals up and forward by ~10mm



I sort of like the lower ratio and how it makes the chain look, but i certainly need more reduction.
On pedal power, the gearing peaks out at 22mph, so clearly i'm going to have to change these ratios up. It's obvious that i'll have to go back to a 22T at the least, which is no problem. Long term, i think a 35T would be most ideal. I think it would make pedaling into the 35mph zone pretty easy.

The gears do go down to a 11T at the rear already, so there's not much room to improve the rear gearing.

I also added a cover to the mid drive to help it look a bit more discreet


Tomorrow, the Bike E should arrive, so i'll probably give it a tune and a couple spins around the block.
I find out if i have enough bone density to take this crazy fixator off in 2 days. i'm strapping that battery on, and it's time to go...

 

[neptronix]

UPS appears to have lost the Bike E. How you lose a 51lbs package is beyond me. Now they're doing an investigation and such.

Doc says i'm a month away from getting the medieval torture device off my leg. So no motor for me, yet.
The one positive thing i heard is that they're not sending me to physical therapy because they think my DIY physical therapy attempts have worked well enough when i demonstrated how i walk. So rad :thumb:

I realized i can't begin building the front fairing until the fixator is off my leg because the handlebar positioning will change when the torture device is removed. But i've been dreaming up designs every day.

Since i've got a month of no-motor riding ahead of me, i'm thinking about experimenting with the cannondale's wheels. There is an adapter that allows you to put in a standard ol' 1 1/8th suspension fork. From what i understand, the original designer of the cannondale was thinking of making it a 26" rear, 20" front. I have a 24" rear wheel here, so i could experiment with 24"/20" instead of 20"/16" to see if it adversely affects handling and riding characteristics.

The downside would be that i can't use my 3T leafmotor :x

Another idea: 20" suspension fork up front with an 18" wheel. Should result in a 2 inch front raise, which would be a good thing because the rear seat would go backwards more, and the BB would be higher, making it more like an aerodynamics focused design 8) the question of course, is if the negative effects on handling are worth it. 18" is tall enough that the front wheel should have an easier time hopping over things, and i can specify a bit stiffer suspension fork, which is great because the cannondale headshok is way too lightly sprung and often bottoms out even on pedal powered rides.

Time to order some bits so i can play with the wheels. :thumb:

 

[amberwolf]

Changing the headtube/steerer angle will also change the trail, etc., and probably make it handle better at high speed, and poorer at low speed, based on how such changes worked out on CrazyBike2 over the years.

UPS appears to have lost the Bike E. How you lose a 51lbs package is beyond me.

I do the packing and shipping for the store I work at, for web orders, and every few months I get a letter from UPS asking if we want to make a claim for a lost package. The funny thing is, they usually list what the contents looked like (not necessarily what they actually were listed as on the packing list inside), so somebody had the box open and physically looked at the stuff to get the description...meaning they weren't "lost", at least not at the point they wrote up their report. Sometimes they don't list the contents, just weight and ohter on-shipping-label info. I don't know what actually happens with these things in the end, cuz we just forward all the letters on to our corporate to handle. But almost all of these things are the big bags of dog food, litter, or other large / heavy items. Haven't been anything smaller than an adult human torso in the "lost" reports.

We also get completely destroyed (by UPS, presumably) packages turned in to us, by wahtever UPS driver happens to be nearby, because they cant' deliver them in the state they've reached. Some of them the products inside are still intact, some of them are damaged to various levels, and some of them are unrecognizable or just are containers / bags with no contents. :/ Some of the boxes look like they were dropped out the back on the freeway and run over quite a lot before being rescued.

 

[neptronix]

Changing the headtube/steerer angle will also change the trail, etc., and probably make it handle better at high speed, and poorer at low speed, based on how such changes worked out on CrazyBike2 over the years.

Sounds about right. Which is why i don't want to change the angle drastically. Too bad there's no such thing as an 18" suspension fork.
I could actually go with a stiff front 20" fork and wheel and likely end up with super minimal raise. But the loss of comfort would likely be a deal breaker.

If the bikeE has a 1 1/8in. steerer tube, then i'm gonna do this experiment on the bikeE first, as it has very similar geometry. The bike collective should have a 20" fork lying around somewhere.

Some of the boxes look like they were dropped out the back on the freeway and run over quite a lot before being rescued.

Damn. I'm going to start paying for insurance from now on.
It turns out that they found the box, and say they'll deliver it tomorrow. Hopefully i don't end up with any horror stories like the ones you detailed

 

[amberwolf]

Too bad there's no such thing as an 18" suspension fork.

There can be, if you do the mods I suggested before to a longer fork.

Damn. I'm going to start paying for insurance from now on.

If it's an "irreplaceable" item that you can't just have the shipper send another, even that doesn't help all the time.

 

[thundercamel]

UPS appears to have lost the Bike E. How you lose a 51lbs package is beyond me. Now they're doing an investigation and such.

Reminds me of when UPS lost a $10,000 engine for Rob Dahm, and he found it for sale on ebay.
https://jalopnik.com/how-ups-screwed-a-popular-youtube-car-guy-out-of-10-00-1738255686

If the bikeE has a 1 1/8in. steerer tube, then i'm gonna do this experiment on the bikeE first, as it has very similar geometry. The bike collective should have a 20" fork lying around somewhere.

It might be 1-1/4"
https://www.plunk.org/eben/Albums/BikeE/

 

[neptronix]

Too bad there's no such thing as an 18" suspension fork.

There can be, if you do the mods I suggested before to a longer fork.

I went a couple pages back and couldn't find it. Remind me?

I imagine this means using a 20" fork and losing some of the travel?

It might be 1-1/4"
https://www.plunk.org/eben/Albums/BikeE/

Crud. Oh well.

Realized another thing. If i run a cannondale headset adapter, i need a new handlebar neck, or tube, or whatever it's called that hooks up to the fork. Oh dear.

.....so, how big of a 16" tire will fit in the front fork? :lol:

 

[neptronix]

UPS is being super confidence inspiring this morning :lol:

 

[neptronix]

The new recumbent trunk ( monoprice box ) finally arrived.



It's everything i could ask for:
+ A bit narrower, which is exactly what i needed for rear tailbox fitment.
+ About twice the capacity as the ammo box. It should carry all the tools i need, 3x the water, and some snacks for those super long rides.
+ Hilariously thick plastic walls. Would probably survive being thrown off a couple story building. Won't have an issue with it flexing, like i do with the current plastic ammo box. No loss of confidence in the box's structural integrity after i bolt aerodynamic panels to it.
+ Opens in a better direction - although i wish it had just one latch instead of two.

I think this is the perfect rear seat mounted recumbent trunk. I'm excited to get it bolted up and start figuring out the rear tail fairing situation.

If the bike E really arrives today, i think i'll electrify the cannondale and use the bike E as my bone builder ride. Because the first task will be testing the aerodynamic differences, in watts, that the rear tailbox makes.

I can't play with front fairings due to the crazy leg cage + handlebar position issue, so i might as well mess with the rear.

 

[neptronix]

Thank heavens, the bike E arrived and all the pieces look like they are there.



My garage is a complete mess from all the work i've been doing and i just need to clean the place up before i even start putting the bike together. Do plan to have it up and running by the end of the day.

Which is good because as you see there is plenty of tinkering to do on the cannondale still. And an eZee motor and controller to install.

Will start a build thread on the Bike E if/when it becomes anything of importance but for now it's just a spare bike while the big yellow beauty is down for tinkering

 

[amberwolf]

I went a couple pages back and couldn't find it. Remind me?

apparetly was in your bike e thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=101408&p=1483516&hilit=fork#p1483516

I imagine this means using a 20" fork and losing some of the travel?

no loss of travel, just looks funny.

 

[neptronix]

The bike E is no longer a pile of parts. They literally took every single part and mixed it into a bag, what a pain in the ass, especially the steering mechanism!! but it looks like it's worth it.



As you can see, the Bike E isn't much smaller than the cannondale, and the seat even adjusts back nearly as far, so that's cool.

The Bike E is about 10lbs lighter and also has a chromoly front end, which is nice because it balances out the weight on the bike pretty well. I can see how they worked hard to make it a mainstream design. It's a nice urban sidearm to the big cannondale.



Nothing to remark on the cannondale. Tomorrow, i want to get the bike E up and running and having a storage on the rear as a pedal bike for my nightly 1 hour bone building ride. Then, and only then can the cannondale can be taken out of service.