Hub Motor Rust Protection

[Eastwood]

It looks like the Sprayon 600 is the better option because of the abrasion resistance.

If anything is rubbing against your stator or magnets, your motor has more serious problems than rust.

Yeah true, but I got this version because I plan on using statoraid and the clear version is resistant to abrasion. With the orange version the 6001 it’s not resistant to abrasion, so while using statoraid there would be a risk of it flaking off.

I’m sure many people have had great success with the 6001 orange version but why take the risk when they make the same exact product it’s more durable. Also not to mention when we’re painting the inside of these motors your painting on top of rubber fabric etc. it’s not just metal. While the orange version is only suitable for metal so flaking would be more of a risk.

 

[Eastwood]

Got rust? :lol:

 

[calab]

Look similar to this
https://youtu.be/92aAfYXBgbg?t=124

 

[Eastwood]

the one with smaller holes on the side covers had way less paint wiped off.. and that is due to the holes in the side covers that let less dust to enter and mix with FF.. In fact these holes let dust and sand and particules to enter and merge with the ferrofluid.. wicth make it more ABRASIVE.... just like waterjet cutter and sand in that water... without sand the jet is less abrasive..

conclusion: Ferrofluid or ATF will become more ABRASIVE IF mixed with dust , sand or various particules that enter thru the side cover that have holes in it... and that can wipe the paint... but motor with Ferrodluid only will not.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48753&p=1279216#p1279216

So here’s an idea to have vents in the side plates without allowing sand, dust grit etc to enter the motor. In efforts to not chip or scratch the varnish.

1st idea
What if one drilled holes in the side plate cover and tapped the hole for a thread bolt. Then have a removable fasteners/bolt with a rubber washer that could be unscrewed with your fingers for easy access to allow the motor to vent of moisture. Maybe 1 hole/vent per side plate cover. This could be done after riding in moist conditions to allow the motor to vent out any moisture as it begins to cool. If one is riding in dry conditions with no moisture or high humidity and there’s no reason to vent the motor. So this option would give you the ability to vent motor manually while still keeping it sealed with the rubber washer combined with the fastener. Also with this option you can always have easy access to add more ferrofluid.

2nd idea
Use some type of mesh or screen that can withstand the heat and glue it on the backside of the side plate cover to create a filter that doesn’t allow grit sand etc. to enter the motor. It would be great if we had some type of special mesh or screen/filter that would only allow air flow in one direction. I’m sure it’s possible but finding the right material might be tough. But even finding a basic screen/filter that will allow airflow and stop debris might be an option. With this option you could actually have fairly large holes in the side plate cover which would aid in cooling the motor but stop any debris from coming in. I’m sure someone has tried this right?

 

[Jrbe]

the one with smaller holes on the side covers had way less paint wiped off.. and that is due to the holes in the side covers that let less dust to enter and mix with FF.. In fact these holes let dust and sand and particules to enter and merge with the ferrofluid.. wicth make it more ABRASIVE.... just like waterjet cutter and sand in that water... without sand the jet is less abrasive..

conclusion: Ferrofluid or ATF will become more ABRASIVE IF mixed with dust , sand or various particules that enter thru the side cover that have holes in it... and that can wipe the paint... but motor with Ferrodluid only will not.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48753&p=1279216#p1279216

So here’s an idea to have vents in the side plates without allowing sand, dust grit etc to enter the motor. In efforts to not chip or scratch the varnish.

1st idea
What if one drilled holes in the side plate cover and tapped the hole for a thread bolt. Then have a removable fasteners/bolt with a rubber washer that could be unscrewed with your fingers for easy access to allow the motor to vent of moisture. Maybe 1 hole/vent per side plate cover. This could be done after riding in moist conditions to allow the motor to vent out any moisture as it begins to cool. If one is riding in dry conditions with no moisture or high humidity and there’s no reason to vent the motor. So this option would give you the ability to vent motor manually while still keeping it sealed with the rubber washer combined with the fastener. Also with this option you can always have easy access to add more ferrofluid.

2nd idea
Use some type of mesh or screen that can withstand the heat and glue it on the backside of the side plate cover to create a filter that doesn’t allow grit sand etc. to enter the motor. It would be great if we had some type of special mesh or screen/filter that would only allow air flow in one direction. I’m sure it’s possible but finding the right material might be tough. But even finding a basic screen/filter that will allow airflow and stop debris might be an option. With this option you could actually have fairly large holes in the side plate cover which would aid in cooling the motor but stop any debris from coming in. I’m sure someone has tried this right?

For #1 I'd expect something finger tight would loosen up on a ride. If it's an issue you can swap to a soft aluminum washer to seal or use a bolt with an o-ring groove in it. Probably easier to find an oem drain plug. Start with your vent / drain thread size and drain plug as a search term.

For #2, as long as there's consistently enough airspace up top, you could do like they do with headlights, differentials, etc. Add a tube that goes up, 180° down, then cut at least 1" below the height of the opening. That should prevent siphoning when it goes upside down but will leak some. The more burps of oil the higher you'll have to go with the top of the loop.

For the 1 way mesh, tyvek can do that. It's HDPE, so check with whatever fluid you're using for compatibility.

 

[Eastwood]

For #1 or use a bolt with an o-ring groove in it. Probably easier to find an oem drain plug. Start with your vent / drain thread size and drain plug as a search term.

That’s a great idea, a bolt with an O ring. Maybe I can tack weld two little flanges on the bolt/oil drain plug to make it a wing nut. That way I could still access the vent with my fingers and should be able to snug it up tight enough.

For #2, as long as there's consistently enough airspace up top, you could do like they do with headlights, differentials, etc. Add a tube that goes up, 180° down, then cut at least 1" below the height of the opening. That should prevent siphoning when it goes upside down but will leak some. The more burps of oil the higher you'll have to go with the top of the loop.

Do you have an image of what you’re explaining? I’m trying to picture a visual of how that would work with a hub motor. I know with Diff Breathers they are normally ran up to the engine bay. Maybe with a hub motor you could have an air hose vent out the same side of the axle where the wires come out.

For the 1 way mesh, tyvek can do that. It's HDPE, so check with whatever fluid you're using for compatibility.

OK great, I will look into this one way mesh!

I’m actually working on two different QS205 so I may try different methods with each motor. Still brainstorming

 

[Eastwood]

Here’s how the clear varnish turned out, It sort of has a yellowish amber color the thicker the varnish gets. Which is good so you can see if you have full coverage plus it’s extremely glossy so you can see if you’ve missed any spots.

 

[Jrbe]

For #2, as long as there's consistently enough airspace up top, you could do like they do with headlights, differentials, etc. Add a tube that goes up, 180° down, then cut at least 1" below the height of the opening. That should prevent siphoning when it goes upside down but will leak some. The more burps of oil the higher you'll have to go with the top of the loop.

Do you have an image of what you’re explaining? I’m trying to picture a visual of how that would work with a hub motor. I know with Diff Breathers they are normally ran up to the engine bay. Maybe with a hub motor you could have an air hose vent out the same side of the axle where the wires come out.

A simple version will probably be enough. But if it tips the wrong way the fluid will all drain out. It would be pretty easy to make a longer one (goes up more) if needed.


For a fuel cell something like this antisiphon loop allows liquid that splashes up to drain back into the reservoir. It might leak a little bit but won't leave a huge puddle from siphoning (if the hose goes below the normal bottom of the liquid level) if you flip. I have no idea how environmentally friendly statorade / ferrofluid is. The fuel filter they mention is used as an overflow catch can to trap any "burps." You can do anywhere from a simple / short version shown above to the all out antisiphon loop pictured here,
From https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/racing-fuel-cell-tech-article-by-billavista-pirate4x4x-com.2702746/

You can print the picture and rotate it to see how it would always break the siphon.

There are tipover valves that could be ideal for a bike if they weren't so big. Idea is when upright the ball sits in a place where it can vent. When upside down the ball blocks the vent. Normally these would be installed vertically.
You might find something like these to put in a hose horizontally that would block the line if it's on its side. I'd guess you would need 2 in opposite directions. But they would need to be able to vent while sitting horizontal. They might rattle..


Most drain plugs are zinc plated. The zinc will oxidize when you weld it and can make you feel really sick. It also would likely make the o-ring seal surface less than ideal. Do you have a tool kit with a wrench or Allen key that could fit?
Might be able to grind the hex into a thumbscrew but you could still burn the zinc.

"Thumbscrew o-ring" as a search term found these, http://www.tsracing.com/Bead-Lock-Screw-Knurled-Black-Aluminum-5mm-x-8mm-P8053.aspx

You could probably find some good options.

Might be worth picking a thread size first that works for all options in case some don't work out.

..edit..

And this is probably the simplest solution. Short loop with a rollover (free floating ball) valve in it,


Most pcv valves are junk but you might find one that works out as your threaded rollover valve. Then you just need the hose loop.

 

[Chalo]

Keep in mind that every exposed part of a hub motor rotates except for the axle ends. Only one of those has a pass-through, and it's only big enough for the motor wires. So there's no place to install a breather tube, check valve, or any of that stuff.

Statorade doesn't leak out because the permanent magnets hold it in the air gap.

 

[Eastwood]

Only one of those has a pass-through, and it's only big enough for the motor wires. So there's no place to install a breather tube, check valve, or any of that stuff.

Maybe remove one set of the hall sensors wires since the QS205 has two sets of wires, I might give it enough room to allow a really skinny air hose. But then you have to deal with that 90°angle so it probably would pinch it. Or if the other side of the axle was machined with a small hole drilled through the middle of the axle to allow for the air hose to come out the other side, obviously that would weaken the axle so just a thought.

 

[Eastwood]

"Thumbscrew o-ring" as a search term found these, http://www.tsracing.com/Bead-Lock-Screw-Knurled-Black-Aluminum-5mm-x-8mm-P8053.aspx
Screenshot_20220304-095224_Samsung Internet.jpg
You could probably find some good options.

Yeah that’s perfect! maybe use just a little bit of blue Loctite, maybe my fingers are strong enough to unscrew it with a small amount of lock-tight. Also to counterbalance the weight off set from the bolt I could put one on each side cover at opposite ends to try to help with the motor being balanced.

Edit: here’s a different one from the same site. A little pricey but I think I will try these.
Thanks for posting that link!
http://www.tsracing.com/MCP-Billet-Master-Cylinder-Thumb-Screw-Cap-wO-ring-P8406.aspx

 

[Eastwood]

A simple version will probably be enough. But if it tips the wrong way the fluid will all drain out. It would be pretty easy to make a longer one (goes up more) if needed.
vent tube loop.jpg

For a fuel cell something like this antisiphon loop allows liquid that splashes up to drain back into the reservoir. It might leak a little bit but won't leave a huge puddle from siphoning (if the hose goes below the normal bottom of the liquid level) if you flip. I have no idea how environmentally friendly statorade / ferrofluid is. The fuel filter they mention is used as an overflow catch can to trap any "burps." You can do anywhere from a simple / short version shown above to the all out antisiphon loop pictured here,
From https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/racing-fuel-cell-tech-article-by-billavista-pirate4x4x-com.2702746/
rollover antisiphon loop.jpg
You can print the picture and rotate it to see how it would always break the siphon.

There are tipover valves that could be ideal for a bike if they weren't so big. Idea is when upright the ball sits in a place where it can vent. When upside down the ball blocks the vent. Normally these would be installed vertically.
You might find something like these to put in a hose horizontally that would block the line if it's on its side. I'd guess you would need 2 in opposite directions. But they would need to be able to vent while sitting horizontal. They might rattle..
Screenshot_20220304-101701_Samsung Internet.jpg

Most drain plugs are zinc plated. The zinc will oxidize when you weld it and can make you feel really sick. It also would likely make the o-ring seal surface less than ideal. Do you have a tool kit with a wrench or Allen key that could fit?
Might be able to grind the hex into a thumbscrew but you could still burn the zinc.

"Thumbscrew o-ring" as a search term found these, http://www.tsracing.com/Bead-Lock-Screw-Knurled-Black-Aluminum-5mm-x-8mm-P8053.aspx
Screenshot_20220304-095224_Samsung Internet.jpg
You could probably find some good options.

Might be worth picking a thread size first that works for all options in case some don't work out.

..edit..

And this is probably the simplest solution. Short loop with a rollover (free floating ball) valve in it,
vent tube loop.jpg

Most pcv valves are junk but you might find one that works out as your threaded rollover valve. Then you just need the hose loop.

Yeah these are some good ideas you got me critically thinking now lol
I’m sure there’s someway to have a air hose vent installed somehow through the axle. As chalo is saying you can’t do it through the side plate covers because that is the actual rotor part that spins so it would have to come out of the axle somewhere.

 

[Jrbe]

Chalo, you're right, I forgot / didn't think about the sides turning.

I haven't used ferrofluid / statorade. Not sure this next idea would work. It would need some airspace to live in. Could you fish in a high temp rated tiny plastic tube sort of like this?

There are extremely small plastic tubes (yellow above) available.
The blue thing is a size adapter, red is a bigger line. Or just run the small tube the whole way.
If the motor is 40% or less of the void area filled with some fluid and you can get the tube up and centered in the motor it might be an antisiphon setup without a rollover valve.

 

[amberwolf]

I haven't used ferrofluid / statorade. Not sure this next idea would work. It would need some airspace to live in.

There should still be videos on the Grin Tech site http://ebikes.ca that show you how ferrofluid works, and it's installation, etc. It only "lives" in the magnetic field between the magnets and the stator laminations, if the correct amount (very tiny) is installed. (over time, some of the liquid suspension material will "wick" via surface tension at various temperatures into the laminations themselves, and into any gaps between magnets and rotors, and into the gaps between the side covers and the rotor shell).

So I don't really understand what you want tubing, valves, etc., for; what you want them to do?

If you want them to keep water out or to let the system "breathe" to allow water vapor that does get into the motor to exit (since it's nearly impossible to *completely* seal one), there have been a few experiments documented in the Heating and Cooling of Hubmotors experiements thread (and elsewhere).

One thing that has been tested to keep a motor "dry" is to drill at least one small hole at the extreme outer edge of the side cover, where it's lip intersects with the outermost inner circumference of the rotor backiron (where the magnets are attached), and ensure that hole is at the "bottom" whenever the bike is parked so any water that has collected inside can drain out. How this will work out with ferrofluid, I don't know.

IIRC Goretex (?) vents in the sidecover nearer the axle have also been tested.

 

[Eastwood]

One thing that has been tested to keep a motor "dry" is to drill at least one small hole at the extreme outer edge of the side cover, where it's lip intersects with the outermost inner circumference of the rotor backiron (where the magnets are attached), and ensure that hole is at the "bottom" whenever the bike is parked so any water that has collected inside can drain out. How this will work out with ferrofluid, I don't know.

Yeah the problem with this method while using a varnish is that any sand or grit that enters through the hole will mix with the F/F and cause chipping or flaking of the varnish.

I’m sure leaving some small pinholes in the outer edge of the side plate works great when the inside is not varnished and you don’t have to worry about it mixing with the F fluid causing chipping.

In my situation I use this motor for Enduro riding so I’m constantly going through puddles of mud and creek beds etc.. I’m trying to create the motor to be rust proof while still allowing the motor to vent while still using F/F. Lotta moving parts here lol

 

[Eastwood]

Could you fish in a high temp rated tiny plastic tube sort of like this?
Screenshot_20220304-194800_Samsung Internet.jpg

Yeah this method should work maybe with possibly removing one set of the hall sensor wires to create extra space.

 

[Eastwood]

IIRC Goretex (?) vents in the sidecover nearer the axle have also been tested.

Are you saying that it has been tested?

 

[DogDipstick]

Could you fish in a high temp rated tiny plastic tube sort of like this?
Screenshot_20220304-194800_Samsung Internet.jpg

Yeah this method should work maybe with possibly removing one set of the hall sensor wires to create extra space.

You could drill a port on the other side. I have very fine tubes here that are under 1/2 a mm. Probally 0.250mm tubing. Youwould only need to drill a tiny tiny hole. Vapor will not flow, though, unless the hole is large enough. You can get very, very fine tubes. Very expensive, as is the connectors for them too.

....but there is a ton of real estate if you chuck up a long, carbide, end mill in the lathe, with a removed axle bolted on the tool rest, and line bore another hole in the axle on the other side. The axle is keyed and comes out easy. I bored out my hub motor axle from the 8mm, it was, to about 10mm to accept thicker phase wires. The opposite side could probably fit a 3/8 inch bore on an angle for a 3/8 O.D. tube.

Axle is to tough to drill with cheap drill bits. Carbide tore it up easy.


I am thinking about dipping my hub motor in Cosmoline. Now that I have gotten all the old rust off of it, and it is time for it to be reassembled. This is the third time it has been opened: every time water had made its way into the hub. Not alot, but enough.

 

[Eastwood]

I am thinking about dipping my hub motor in Cosmoline. Now that I have gotten all the old rust off of it, and it is time for it to be reassembled. This is the third time it has been opened: every time water had made its way into the hub. Not alot, but enough.

Yeah I feel your pain, this is my second time opening this motor because of rust. the motor it’s less than one year old but as mentioned above I’m riding in wet conditions often so it’s been a learning experience

As far as using cosmoline you could also consider a product called Boeheild T9, that was recommended by Justin.

I went the varnish route because I also have a new qs205 V3TI 6T on the way so this is somewhat of a test. After using the motor for a while I will open back up to examine for any flaking. If I see flaking I may change the plan for the new motor but as of now I plan to varnish it as well.

 

[Eastwood]

Here’s some pictures of the side plate cover with the tapped hole. I actually had to re-tap the new bolts I ordered because it came in some weird size at 12.5 mm. So I re-tapped it to 12mm 1.0mm tread.

I may shorten the bolts slightly to avoid hitting the copper windings or hall sensor wires. I could’ve put the vent hole near the middle to avoid the windings but would rather have it closer to the edge where moisture sits in these hub motors.

So yeah put these bolts in the side plate covers to create a vent to let out any moisture when I’m done riding. Also this creates a permanent access hole to add new statoraid when needed. I guess technically it would help with cooling right, I will have a hole on each side plate cover so it has to allow some heat to escape while allowing the moisture to escape as well. Although the focus is just to let out moisture it’s not really designed to be a cooling feature but I’m sure it doesn’t hurt.

 

[Eastwood]

I used some printer paper to wrap around the stator so when I installed back into the rotor/magnets it wouldn’t chip the varnish. It seem to do a good job of protecting the varnish during that violent transition when the stator gets yanked in by the force of the magnetic field. The paper slid out easily once the rotor was installed. Hopefully this info is helpful to someone else out there.

 

[amberwolf]

If you use a "gear puller", in reverse, you can prevent that sudden yank. The screw of the puller pushing against the axle can allow the core to slide in as slowly as you like. The puller is used from the outside of the empty rotor/sidecover.

Still useful to put a ring of something between the magnets and outer circumference of the laminations to prevent scratches from misalignment during that operation, but it is possible to build a fixture that would prevent those, too, if you did this kind of operation enough to warrant it.

 

[Eastwood]

If you use a "gear puller", in reverse, you can prevent that sudden yank. The screw of the puller pushing against the axle can allow the core to slide in as slowly as you like. The puller is used from the outside of the empty rotor/sidecover.

OK thanks, i’ll use the gear puller in reverse for my upcoming build. Used a gear puller to remove but never thought about using it in reverse to slowly lower the stator into place :thumb: