Insane amount of trouble setting up QS 205 with SIA 100A contro

[lookinglikejesus]

Hi all,

QS205 50H V3I
SIAECOSYS 7230 100A
72V 25amph pack with 50A BMS

So I've gotten this far - I've wired the connections I believe properly such that it comes out without any errors. Ignition (orange wire), throttle, ethrottle, and battery wires. After much headache setting up the software I FINALLY got the hall test to pass (although the motor seems to be at a standstill on the blutooth hall test), with a hall angle of 245, coinciding with the manufacturer. Motor poles changed to 16 as well. Motor position flipped to 1 to get orientation right. There are ZERO errors in the sabvoton PC programming or the blutooth, its fault free.

After putting everything together and going for a ride, I instantly felt like internal resistance coming from the motor, especially when hitting the motor hard - and when I mean hard, I mean to go 10mph. This thing cannot go past 10-20mph because of like some sort of scraping, resistance going on in the motor. It feels terrible. Like the motor is choking when you give it the wrong amount of throttle, and by wrong I mean maybe giving it 1 extra volt of throttle. Like a micro-brake is applied rapidly. To be clear, this choking is only when throttle is applied, otherwise it rolls normally.

Is it the amp draw? I have a 72V battery with a BMS rated at 50A, and the controller is a SIA (basically a sabvoton) at 100A. It's connected to an x60 with 10AWG wire, that should be enough I think especially not to make the motor stall. Or programming? The hall angle should be correct, the poles are right, the orientation had to be flipped.. I'm really not sure what else there is to program. I guess the amp draw could be altered. I know the battery BMS is programmable. Wiring harness issue? Battery too weak, or possibly the motor is just defective? I feel lost.

 

[neptronix]

50A is the absolute limit of your BMS. If you're pulling that from a stall, the BMS may intervene and cut power.

I don't know anything about your controller and how it's programmed. But if it has a 'phase amp' and 'battery amp' setting, you should know that the phase amps should be 2x-3x that of battery amps in order to get appreciable

The noises you're hearing sound like a hall-phase mismatch or a motor construction error.. sometimes incorrect hall/phase connections work well enough to not be detected.. but the main symptom of this is that the motor struggles.. and gets much hotter than it should.

You should get a device that can monitor your amps and voltage in realtime to help diagnose the problem. The cycle analyst is a good choice for this, but there are also cheaper devices that may work.

Someone probably has a known tested hall-phase color match on this forum for your combination of motor and controller. Posting pictures of how you have things wired would help rule that out.

 

[lookinglikejesus]

The controller is basically identical to a Sabvoton that's 100A, down to the software and programming. I've attached the settings here.

The halls/phases I've basically didn't touch and just color coded as is. The halls went with its corresponding connector, and the phase I just color coded accordingly to the controller. The hall angle I know is 245 not only because the manufacturer gave that but I've tested it multiple times (with hall test OK at the end), and I changed the poles to 16. I do know the orientation had to be flipped.

I guess I do have a cheap 15$ watt meter that I can try plugging in, I would have to change the connectors and find a way to see the reading while riding.

I really don't want to think the motor is defective because I just purchased it.

 

[neptronix]

I don't know what kind of sag your battery experiences under load, but i'm guessing it's a decent amount at a 50A load.
68v might be too low for the 'current limiting' setting, your battery may dip below that. A volt/amp meter would rule that one out.
Try lowering that a hair and see what happens.

Sometimes, as shipped, the phase and hall colors are off.. and you have to play phase/hall musical chairs anyway
I've had to do this with a couple motors.

 

[lookinglikejesus]

Ok just rode it (read - baby'd it) for about 30 minutes to an hour. The stuttering issue mostly goes away once you actually start moving. It's only when you are moving from a hard stop, or climbing like a minor hill. Basically, when the motor is under a little stress, once it's actually rolling it's largely not an issue. Motor is cool a cucumber, so is the controller, battery and wiring harness. Not hot at all.

Changed these settings:
DC Current (A) - 25
Rated Phase Current (A) 50
On BMS, moved speed limit to 180 km/h, that probably didn't make a difference

everything else the same. Still the stuttering on takeoff. So you said, current limiting voltage at 68 should be lowered or raised? To like, 70, 72, 75? Slightly confused by that.

EDIT: The best way I can describe it is, you reaaaaally really have to ease onto the throttle in order to ride it smooth without the jerkiness in the hub. Like, go super slow on the throttle, and then as its rolling you can steadily give it more throttle. The motor is a QS205 V3I rated pretty high.

 

[E-HP]

On BMS, moved speed limit to 180 km/h, that probably didn't make a difference

Can you explain what this means?

 

[lookinglikejesus]

Sure, I'll just the battery's (relevant) information right here. Really not sure what the speed limiting setting does on the BMS, but I figured it might've been reducing the current draw on the controller so I changed it.

So the DC current has to be roughly half the phase current? Can I set both to 50 and examine it?

 

[E-HP]

Sure, I'll just the battery's (relevant) information right here. Really not sure what the speed limiting setting does on the BMS, but I figured it might've been reducing the current draw on the controller so I changed it.

So the DC current has to be roughly half the phase current? Can I set both to 50 and examine it?

Are you saying your controller software also interfaces with the Battery's BMS?

 

[lookinglikejesus]

Definitely not, both are separate. The BMS is some generic 20S 50A blutooth BMS, one port for charge/discharge that I can use to monitor the cells/activity and kind of alter settings a bit. The controller is SIAECOSYS which is essentially sabvoton programming with a different name slapped on. I can basically look at other people troubleshooting their sabvoton and program it the same as mine.

EDIT: I was wondering if it had to do with the throttle mid current being at 105A, and max phase current at 270.

 

[lookinglikejesus]

Update - so when I reduced the DC amps to 25 and phase amps to 50 in the blutooth settings, the stalling still occurs on takeoff, but once you're rolling and giving it steady throttle there's no stalling and it rides fine - albeit slow, 20mph roughly. As soon as I bump the settings (eg. DC 35 phase 70, or DC 50 phase 100 which was originally), I can definitely feel a difference in torque on the bike, but as soon as you're moving maybe 20mph, giving any more throttle past this causes like an INTENSE stuttering/scratching/stalling/resistance in the hub. Very uncomfortable.

 

[Ripcorn]

Have you tried a different throttle? It might just be a faulty one.

 

[lookinglikejesus]

No I have not, I guess I can try that but I don't think that's the issue - it's the motor response.

I called a local bike shop (Greenpath NYC) and they said, the jerkiness at startup and at speed sounds like an issue with the halls/phase combination and/or the programming. In terms of paramters, With the QS 205 V3I, I'm pretty sure the hall angle is 245, the poles are 16. Motor parameter is 300 from what I've read, I've attached a photo. They said the fact that the orientation had to be flipped shows something is off, and the motor is technically running in a "sensorless" when the halls are not responding properly and/or the phases. The colors are matching, although like neptronix said it could be altered in some way. Not sure.

 

[lookinglikejesus]

Ok I MAY have "fixed" it! I put "fixed" in quotes because I didn't actually do anything to the settings. Based on the tip from Neptronix about phase and colors being off - as well as a call to Greenpath (I believe his name was TShawn or something) who said he wasn't too familiar with it, but that it sounded like the phase/halls were off and that I'd have to check the parameters set (those were correct) or it was possible the color combination was just off and I'd have to find another one.

I figured that would be too big a headache, so I gave it one last shot before I was about to head out - basically put in the spare hall connector from the QS instead of the main, color coded one. Made sure all the programming settings were right. Jumped on the bike.. and the jerkiness was gone! There is a slight buzzing type of noise coming from the motor.. and if I don't ease into the throttle and just hit it hard, the motor does feel slightly jerky - but nothing like before. Did rounds around my block and was definitely going adequate speeds! Will say, the ethrottle is not working for some reason so I had to activate regen mode. Orientation still had to be flipped, he said it was a sign that the phase wires are not interacting properly. Not sure at all.

So does that just mean the manufacturer didn't put the color combination the proper way? Or that the halls are bad? There's no hall error for that pair of halls - the white wire is clipped on it (temperature sensor), I didn't do that someone I asked to wire it up did that. He did solder a wire back for those, not sure if it's relevant. I'll do further testing tonight. I bumped the DC current and phase current settings back up to what they were originally and bike responded well, although I couldn't just hit the throttle very hard, still had to be eased into it. Not sure if thats due to the 3T design of it.

 

[lookinglikejesus]

Rode it a bunch more. So the switching to the spare halls basically removed the stalling at takeoff as long as I'm easy on the throttle and steady. Basically, if I go a little too far into the throttle, there's a chance I will feel the motor will start seizing on me. At one point while riding at about 30mph, I felt the motor screech and the bike completely shut off, I had to turn it off and on again.

But I think this has more to do with the fact that I'm using 3T, and the battery is only 50A?

 

[E-HP]

Rode it a bunch more. So the switching to the spare halls basically removed the stalling at takeoff as long as I'm easy on the throttle and steady. Basically, if I go a little too far into the throttle, there's a chance I will feel the motor will start seizing on me. At one point while riding at about 30mph, I felt the motor screech and the bike completely shut off, I had to turn it off and on again.

But I think this has more to do with the fact that I'm using 3T, and the battery is only 50A?

Ya, I'd say you have a battery problem. Motor will only pull 15A or so from the battery at 30mph, so if that's killing it, I'd suspect your battery. LVC is tripping the BMS. What is the configuration and the type of cells it's using?

 

[lookinglikejesus]

They're Boston Power 5300 cells, I purchased this from someone who built it so not too familiar. 20S and I think 5P? Amperage is 25amph roughly, probably the motor h I do know the battery is 4 years old at least. To get rid of this issue I would need a bigger battery with higher amperage I'm guessing..

https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/9265.pdf
Max continuous amps is 13A I believe, so I think it's capable of 80A but capped at 50A due to the BMS. This is a setup I basically got from someone else.

Switching to the other halls definitely did something because it's significantly smoother, I just can't SLAM on the throttle or it just creaks like crazy, feels like I'm damaging the motor. Once I'm actually rolling in a straight line, I can definitely go fast, but it's always a slow, steady buildup from the battery, I can't just increase the throttle or the motor gives out. It's so bad part of me wants to get a 5T to get rid of it just because it's sooo annoying the slow startup, but if it's just an amperage issue than a bigger battery would suffice..