Landspeed Record Attempt

[jansevr]

the frame in that video doesn't look much more strong than a standard mountain bike. i don't know why they ever expected that to end well. also they physics are much different between downhill and going relatively flat. he crashed because he bottomed out and there was so much force going down into the ground (a result of him going downhill and not necessarily fast). although a crash is always possible, one like this just wouldn't happen.

 

[Kingfish]

KF,

I thought you were like me and didn't like to go fast.

<snip>

John

I suggest partly in jest because I weigh about 150 lbs. :wink:
I have no fear of going fast if managed safely. Stating the obvious, make the bike like an arrow with a long wheelbase and more drag at the back.

This is so tempting, KF 8)

 

[JennyB]

Therefore the questions I have are:

• Do we need to pedal from a cold stop?
• Do we need to pedal at our maximum targeted speed?
• How much distance do we get to achieve our target speed?
• How many runs do we have to make? (I presume it's at least two)
• What is the time limit for succeeding runs?

Make sense?
~KF

AFAIK land speed records are over a mile, flying start, average of two runs, one each way, within one hour.

I don't see any point in insisting that the bike be pedalled throughout, but there should be something to distinguish from an emoto. So why not make a rule that the rider must reach the timing start totally unassisted?

:?

That would give a slight but not overwhelming advantage to a sprint cyclist who could hit the start at 40+ mph, but in an unlimited class the advantage might be to a guy duck-walking a Killacycle.

 

[Seriousknot]

John, I agree with you I think A123's are the way to go. The typical wait time at the starting line is under an hour, and they have sevarl tracks. In on of my prvious build threads I adapted inverted Showa forks from a Honda CR80 to my bike frame and they worked well although they were a little on the heavy side.

 

[Lebowski]

I would chose the batteries based on the C rating. For a decent LSRA we need some decent power, 100 kW. At an estimated 100+ mph you'll
do 5 miles in 3 minutes. So assume 4 minutes of 100 kW, this needs 7kWh of batteries rated at 15C.... as an example 120V 60Ah would do nicely.
though I would go for using 600V IGBT's, run at 400V this'll pull 250Amps.

 

[Doctorbass]

I would chose the batteries based on the C rating. For a decent LSRA we need some decent power, 100 kW. At an estimated 100+ mph you'll
do 5 miles in 3 minutes. So assume 4 minutes of 100 kW, this needs 7kWh of batteries rated at 15C.... as an example 120V 60Ah would do nicely.
though I would go for using 600V IGBT's, run at 400V this'll pull 250Amps.

100kW ? :|

Lebowski Are you still talking about a bicycle or a motorcycle?

Doc

 

[Farfle]

a decently Faired LSRA at 100kw is pushing two-hundo man... and I am not talking kph.

 

[RLD70]

This sounds like it could help out the e-bike in many ways gain acceptance in the US if done properly which Im pretty sure it will be. I just wonder how The Crown would do in something like this??

 

[Farfle]

This sounds like it could help out the e-bike in many ways gain acceptance in the US if done properly which Im pretty sure it will be. I just wonder how The Crown would do in something like this??

HeheHeheheeeee. Oh wait, did I just say that out loud

 

[John in CR]

.... I just wonder how The Crown would do in something like this??

HeheHeheheeeee. Oh wait, did I just say that out loud

If I've got a motor there, I'd pray for someone to show up with both a Crown and an X54xx, so please don't discourage the idea.

 

[MadRhino]

Well, the X54 is way too slow, even the cro-motor is not fast enough to hit 100 Mph.
Very few hub motors can be found, that are fast enough for that kind of speed.
Even if you have one, I suppose it would need to be liquid cooled to sustain that speed.

It is easy to beat 100 Mph with a big mid drive, but with a hub you have a real challenge.

 

[Doctorbass]

A 5302 at 10kW is ice cold at full speed ( efficiency) but controller is hot as a grill! :lol:

High speed hub made for these kind of event are rare ! like Madrhino say.

Unless you install a 29" on a 02 turn motor or drive 300V into that hub, i doubt that 100mph could be reached to have the power peak at 100mph.

Maybe the solar car hub motor might help.. efficiency is like 97% on these axial hub motor.. it is hist hard to get them watercooled..

I think the answer is to have not just amp, but also have VOLTS !

Anyone ever tried our great popular hub motor at 200V+ on E-S ?

Doc

 

[speedmd]

Certainly will show up the rough edges left on the steel plates.

 

[jansevr]

doc- the 5302 might be able to handle 10kw comfortably but could it handle 30kw or more? i think you need a bigger motor, something like john's.

if you convert the hubmonster into a mid drive this should be 100mph+ almost no problem. also the fact that John's motor can run off of two controllers splits up the power and makes a more affordable and high power set-up possible.

 

[speedmd]

Saw the link for golden motor with water cooling option looking reasonably compact.

 

[neptronix]

If anyone needs some guidance in the area or even just a place to crash, do hit me up. The salt flats are next door to me.

In that case Neptronix, you need to have a bike there too. Just remember to always carry some extra water when you're out on the salt doing test runs when no one is there. What's riding on the salt like? Does it seem like a reasonable surface to go fast on 2 wheels?

Oh sorry i have ignored this thread until now...

Great question but i don't have an answer. I know that it is mushy though until the middle of summer to fall. I haven't lived here long enough to get a chance to hit it yet, but i'm gonna be around for speed week, 4sure.

 

[neptronix]

Saw the link for golden motor with water cooling option looking reasonably compact.

Not very compact but look at what liveforphysics has done with his 'bicycle of doom' or maybe he's calling it the 'deathbike' right now, not sure which. He used this motor and it beats a suzuki gsxr1000 on acceleration.

You will however need a very very expensive controller to drive this properly.

John in CR's hubmonsterHE on two 36FET greentime controllers would be a good budget option.

Or you can run two of the 10kW 72V motors in parallel with two 36FET greentime controllers as well, but it would be a more complex and less efficient setup, though each one of those motors has a dyno sheet showing that they will do about 9kW continuous given adequate cooling.

We are getting to the line where electric bicycle and motorcycle lines are crossed though!

 

[John in CR]

The beauty of using Hubmonster is that it won't need to go mid-drive. With only the aerodynamics of a short wheelbase recumbent with no faring it can surpass 100mph, and that's with a 13" rim scooter tire. With a large diameter moto wheel and more attention to aerodynamics to put it's aerodynamic drag somewhere between a short wheelbase recumbent and a Quest trike, somewhere in the 120's is a reasonable goal.

The proof is in the pudding. I run Hubmonster daily at higher current than necessary to pull it off, and in the coming week I'll prove what I already know about high voltage being a non-issue by posting a big speed number with a bike that has poor aerodynamics. Sorry Doc, but I've left your "record" alone for long enough.

Regarding the GM motors, sure that's an option, but Hubmonster is just as much motor with less weight and it handles high voltage. I've run mine on 74V nominal 210A peak as a daily rider in stock form for 8 months. I'm about to change that to 118V nominal and 200A peak, and while ultimately I'll go to ventilated cooling because I climb mountains, sealed is fine for a few mile WOT run on flat land. Talk is cheap, so I'll demonstrate it soon enough. That's 23kw peak with room to go in terms of voltage and current. With it air cooled I have little doubt that I can conservatively go to 150A on each controller, putting peak power input at 35kw. Since I've already done 30kw with a similar weight but much lower efficiency hubmotor, my estimates are based on experience, not unfounded speculation.

These big numbers aren't needed though. I'm coming up with only 16-17kw at the wheel to get to 120 without going overboard on aerodynamics and close the pilot up inside a torpedo shape. There isn't a large enough tire to justify it.

John

 

[speedmd]

Not very compact but look at what liveforphysics has done with his 'bicycle of doom' or maybe he's calling it the 'deathbike' right now, not sure which. He used this motor and it beats a suzuki gsxr1000 on acceleration.

Cooling stack looks like a nice addition. Not sure you could adapt such cooling on the hub. Not as easily for certain. Given the short race , and dry conditions, evaporation cooling may be a option if oil is not enough.

Watched the vids of the informal drag races. It certainly motors. Would be good to see them done over with race riders on the gassers and some distances established to get some decent bench marks.

Like the sound of 118v and 200A. Still thinking several speeds are much better than one. Should be able to set a respectable mark in the books.

Just curious on rider positions. Superman rider position is fast also if going without faring. Same bike frame used for both fared and unfared runs may make that less desirable.

Great topic.

 

[AussieJester]

John, Docs "record" was smashed long ago by Luke, Farfle and Thud, best of luck beating them though, too fast for me anything over 100km/hr is a no go on a bicycle, but, reckon I would have most of you on acceleration to ~ 80 km/hr

KiM

 

[John in CR]

John, Docs "record" was smashed long ago by Luke, Farfle and Thud, best of luck beating them though, too fast for me anything over 100km/hr is a no go on a bicycle,

None of those are hubmotors are they? There have been some guys in Europe report higher speeds than Doc's with hubmotors, but they also burned them up.

Can any of the motors used in your list readily be purchased? I'm not sure which of Thud's bikes you mean, so I don't know what motor.

reckon I would have most of you on acceleration to ~ 80 km/hr
KiM

Again I don't know about Thud's. Farfle's no way unless he's got his geared way too steeply. While Hubmonster bows down to Luke's 400ftlbs of torque, 260ftlbs is pretty respectable and I'm still not seeing signs of saturation. I'll give you that your total load may be low enough to hang thru much of 1st gear, but as you approach needing to go to 2nd it would be adios amigo, I reckon. Don't let videos of a 55kg bike hauling 125kg of rider and stuff cause you to underestimate Hubmonster. That's ok. I'll have my CA3's soon, making SuperV safe enough for others to ride, and I'll get videos with normal weight riders aboard instead of this beached whale. 8)

Strong acceleration is meaningless for running at Bonneville.

John

 

[AussieJester]

soz John I didn't realize you were talking about hub monitored bikes, your correct none of the people I listed used hub motors, Thuds 60mph wheel stands on the go cart track was done on his Bully powered twin 80-100s
're: my two speed, it's a press of a lever and blink of an eye change, doesn't have any noticeable loss of speed, I don't change like this regularly however, treat the box with respect 99% of the time, but yeah she changed fine under full power if needed, the old bike was pretty quick to 60km/hr brew bike has near twice the power, she's geared for accelerating, tiz what gets me of lol, I'm also under no illusion that your hubmonster bikes would have more top end speed, I do have the advantage of changing gear ratios though, I will do a couple of runs on flat road just to see what she is capable of, should be done by next weekend, depending how long customs hold up the package containing my controller and two speed... I'm after reliability over performance for obvious reasons, break down on the road are major pita for me as you know John..so Thuds geared the bike accordingly so it won't be breaking controllers like the last bike lol.. hope you get to Bonneville or at least get a bike there, your sons in the US is he far from Bonneville?

KiM

edited spelling.mistakes.darn predictive text

 

[mushymelon]

What about two wheel drive setups.
More volts less amps.
Long wheelbase.

 

[Doctorbass]

doc- the 5302 might be able to handle 10kw comfortably but could it handle 30kw or more? i think you need a bigger motor, something like john's.

if you convert the hubmonster into a mid drive this should be 100mph+ almost no problem. also the fact that John's motor can run off of two controllers splits up the power and makes a more affordable and high power set-up possible.

Totally agree with that.. but it will not be an electric bicycle land speed record... it will become a E-motorcycle land speed record. The great hub that John is offering are made for scooter :lol:

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

NO prob with my 2009 record smached... it's the goal to push the record further :wink:

ONe of the big reason i did that in 2009 is EXACTLY to push people doing more and more and that's exactl;y what you are all doing now wich is perfect :wink:

Luke, Farfle and Thud did an amazing work too and it's great to have competition that finally smach our record 8)

Keep going guys.. that's what you hae to do!

Now who's next to pull a 19200 schoolbus with an ebike :wink:

Doc