Landspeed Record Attempt

[John in CR]

soz John I didn't realize you were talking about hub monitored bikes, your correct none of the people I listed used hub motors, Thuds 60mph wheel stands on the go cart track was done on his Bully powered twin 80-100s
're: my two speed, it's a press of a lever and blink of an eye change, doesn't have any noticeable loss of speed, I don't change like this regularly however, treat the box with respect 99% of the time, but yeah she changed fine under full power if needed, the old bike was pretty quick to 60km/hr brew bike has near twice the power, she's geared for accelerating, tiz what gets me of lol, I'm also under no illusion that your hubmonster bikes would have more top end speed, I do have the advantage of changing gear ratios though, I will do a couple of runs on flat road just to see what she is capable of, should be done by next weekend, depending how long customs hold up the package containing my controller and two speed... I'm after reliability over performance for obvious reasons, break down on the road are major pita for me as you know John..so Thuds geared the bike accordingly so it won't be breaking controllers like the last bike lol.. hope you get to Bonneville or at least get a bike there, your sons in the US is he far from Bonneville?

KiM

edited spelling.mistakes.darn predictive text

I'm with you about acceleration and reliability being where it's at. I like quick, not fast, and only rarely go above 95kph or so. Seriousknot put the idea in my head to analyze what one of my motors might do, and since I sell them, how cool it would be to break a record with HubMonster.com (soon to go live) plastered on the side. The main reason I'd like to do it with a frock is that if we push it out past 110mph it won't be very to break with a hubmotor, and hopefully it starts the hubmotor category. It also would give us something to hang our hat on in case someone shows up this year with a big ass electric motor on something with pedals and great aero.

 

[John in CR]

Totally agree with that.. but it will not be an electric bicycle land speed record... it will become a E-motorcycle land speed record. The great hub that John is offering are made for scooter :lol:

Doc

Nice try. My ebike is 100% legal as an ebike. Is yours?...No. By your same logic Aussie Jester's ebike is actually an airplane. :lol:

 

[Seriousknot]

I don't think anyone at Bonneville will know the difference between a scooter hubmotor and a bicycle hubmotor if we don't tell them LOL. And as far as midrive or hub driven they won't care they are more concerned with aerodymanic faired bikes or open unfaired bikes. So the sky is the limit as far as drivetrain as long as it has working pedals (and no we won't have to pedal them during the run) and doesn't look too much like a motorcycle.

 

[Doctorbass]

Totally agree with that.. but it will not be an electric bicycle land speed record... it will become a E-motorcycle land speed record. The great hub that John is offering are made for scooter :lol:

Doc

Nice try. My ebike is 100% legal as an ebike. Is yours?...No. By your same logic Aussie Jester's ebike is actually an airplane. :lol:

C'mon John let's not enter in that kind of debate... too many variant to compare :lol:

 

[AussieJester]

Totally agree with that.. but it will not be an electric bicycle land speed record... it will become a E-motorcycle land speed record. The great hub that John is offering are made for scooter :lol:

Doc

Nice try. My ebike is 100% legal as an ebike. Is yours?...No. By your same logic Aussie Jester's ebike is actually an airplane. :lol:

LMAO ....maybe I should fabricate some wings for the bike :lol:

KiM

 

[John in CR]

I don't think anyone at Bonneville will know the difference between a scooter hubmotor and a bicycle hubmotor if we don't tell them LOL. And as far as midrive or hub driven they won't care they are more concerned with aerodymanic faired bikes or open unfaired bikes. So the sky is the limit as far as drivetrain as long as it has working pedals (and no we won't have to pedal them during the run) and doesn't look too much like a motorcycle.

Do you already have a 2013 SCTA Rule and Records Book for Bonneville?

 

[bowlofsalad]

I seriously recommend using something like the lightning F-40. From there, obviously the higher the voltage the better. I'd bet you could reach some insanely high speeds this way. Much of the battle is against the wind, anyone not focused on aerodynamics for this kind of situation is doing it wrong.

http://www.lightningbikes.com/f40/

I usually don't go against the thought of using a123 packs for anything, but I would at least consider lipo for this, lipo would likely be a better fit for this for various obvious reasons.

I am unsure if the motor has to be a hub motor. I would assume not. I am guessing that so long as it has two wheels and is powered by electricity that you'll be fine. If this is the case, there are plenty of much more powerful options concerning non-hubs. You can go with some very big electric motors attached to a sprocket on the rear hub. I suppose it's really about budget. But if the appropriate funds can be dug up, smashing previous records should be extremely easy.

I dunno who you'll find to drive this thing though, some of you psychos are sure to raise your hands, wouldn't ever be me though. I think around 30mph is my limit for 2 wheels. Whoever it is, the smaller and lighter the person is, the better. If you found a woman who is 5'3 and 90lbs, that'd do well.

At the very least, full recumbent with a clear wind wrap and some kind of sock/fabric fairing would be the way to go.
http://bikeroute.com/FreeFormFashions/index.php
http://www.t-cycle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=T&Category_Code=WWF

I am sure you guys have seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V2FgwN_re4 this video, I know several of you have. He has no electric motor.

I don't know which bike is best, but the flatter you are, the more you are leaned back the better.

 

[e-beach]

OK, so here is how I am seeing the bike in my minds eye at the moment:

Dual wheel drive recumbent with a hard shell. Full roll cage for the rider.

The front wheel drive is 1 or 2 gears low enough to pedal the bike to the starting line. Then 5 or more extremely tall gears for pedaling at high speed.
(Why ignore human power if we have it on board.)

The rear wheel is powered by mid-motor (behind the rider actually) with gearing to get to 130mph.

Lipo batteries in a low pan under the frame for low center of gravity and stibility.

But, the tires escape my minds eye at the moment....what bicycle or moped tires will hold together at 100+ mph? Anybody got makers and model numbers?

 

[John in CR]

Why ignore human power if we have it on board[?]

Because at extreme speed you want to track exactly straight, with no weight shift back and forth, torque on the frame left and right, or anything else. Plus trying to put out maximum effort for a few minutes will distract from your focus. These aren't worth the 2% or less power it could add, not to mention the space that range of gearing would require. Pedaling to the start line is reasonable though.

Regarding the bike itself, we need to see the rules. Based on the info I could find, at least for motorcycles there are specific rules about seat height relative to the tires as well as special stuff for streamliners. Unlike the HPV racers at Battle Mountain, Bonneville has seen all manner of engines on wheels trying to go fast, so they've developed some rules.

 

[MadRhino]

...
But, the tires escape my minds eye at the moment....what bicycle or moped tires will hold together at 100+ mph? Anybody got makers and model numbers?

Many. DH speed records are 164 Kmh on gravel, 210 Kmh on snow... on DH racing knobbies.
Very few would do it for more than a few miles, but a good fresh dual ply wire beaded tire properly mounted will stand that speed for a while NP

Considering the surface I would go for Berm Master 24 X 3.0

 

[www.recumbents.com]

Fastest Man on Stan Lee's SuperHumans (History Channel)
https://vimeo.com/61953351

According to my speed simulator (http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/simul/HPV_Simul.asp), a bike like this with just 1000 watts of e-power would top out after 4 minutes at 92 MPH.
It would be relatively easy to add a 4000 watt RC drive and it would only need to run for about 5 minutes, so heat soak would not be too bad.
At 4000 watts the bike would peak at 153 MPH after 2 minutes.

Since the gearing would need to be extreme (if using a single speed drivetrain), human power could be used to get the bike up to a speed where the motor could be engaged without lugging. If you are running on salt the speeds listed above would be much lower due to to higher rolling resistance. Can anybody find RR figures on wide bike tires running on salt?

-Warren.

 

[Doctorbass]

Totally agree with that.. but it will not be an electric bicycle land speed record... it will become a E-motorcycle land speed record. The great hub that John is offering are made for scooter :lol:

Doc

Nice try. My ebike is 100% legal as an ebike. Is yours?...No. By your same logic Aussie Jester's ebike is actually an airplane. :lol:

LMAO ....maybe I should fabricate some wings for the bike :lol:

KiM

Ah haa.. My guess is that with some of these 82mph human powered bike stype, if you power it with let say the 54hp new compact motor from Zero and couples of Nanotech, YOU WOULD REALLY NEED WINGS to the fairing to conteract the turbulence :lol:

 

[John in CR]

MadRhino,
The risk is too high. I don't think we can count on such a lightweight bike sliding to a stop on its side. A tire failure has to be considered catastrophic, so It has to be a properly rated moto tire. No knobby would cut it anyway due to too much wind resistance. Those things are like fans even just spun up to 40mph.

Recumbents,
You're the go to guy around here when it comes to super sleek through the air. Which CdA were you using? Realistically though, after considering we need at least 1kwh of battery and a motor in there, plus the pilot has to wear full racing leathers, and we need real tires, what kind of CdA can a first time builder realistically get and what rolling resistance? If we build a streamliner, can you get us in a Battle Mountain, since you probably know most of those guys?

"Heat soak"...I don't know why but that terminology always makes me cringe...probably the way it's loosely thrown around. Let's look at your estimation though, because I believe it's way off and the motor burns up. 5 minutes sounds conservative, so that's 300 seconds. As just a ballpark number (actual is less) it requires half a joule of heat to raise a gram of steel 1° C. If we take a 100° as the acceptable limit for the stator to increase in temperature, say 30°C to 130°, which is going way too far AFAIC, and we assume 1kg of metal in the stator, that's 50,000 joules of heat to burn up the motor. A joule is 1 watt second, so spread over 5 minutes that's only 166W average. That's just 4% of the total and we haven't even considered how much lower efficiency is during acceleration, especially the first 30-40% of the curve. It also doesn't consider the reduced efficiency as the motor heats up.

The bottom line is this is no job for a small motor. You don't want one open to the salt, and you want a big stator to absorb the extra waste heat without getting too hot. That's why I prefer and outrunner hubmotor even for such a short duration run, because that spinning shell will dissipate more heat given the same surface area. Plus hubmotors is what I know, and in this case the extra weight it meaningless.

If you can really make something that slippery through the air and really want to go with an RC motor, then maybe one of the biggest Astro's since they're sealed from the salt. Ice it down before the run, and during the run have it packed in frozen packs.

John

 

[www.recumbents.com]

Hi John,

I used .02 for the CD. That is for a really small human in the worlds fastest bike. I used that example to show what is technically possible. I do think it's possible for an Astro 3220 to crank out 4000 watts for 2 minutes without frying.

There are so many variables with this it boggles my mind. Whoever is going to attempt this basically needs to decide what kind of bike to use, faired or unfaired, where to run, motor, battery, the list goes on and on. We could chat endlessly about it or the fearless intrepid speed racer (not me!) will need to step up and tell us what he's going to do.

If it's decided that a road attempt at Battle Mountain is an option, I can talk to Al to see if their insurance would cover it. I'd need to know what the basic bike configuration and wattage estimates are so we know about what speeds we are looking at ahead of time. That course does have fences about 50 feet off of the roadway, so there is the potential for a a bad crash at high speed to send a rider careening into a wire fence. Nobody has ever hit the fence at BM, but a lot of people have slid off into the moon dust and sagebrush, which have pretty good stopping power. That's the one thing the salt flats have in their favor - nothing to hit!

If someone wants to convert an existing streamliner to e-power, there may be one for sale. The molds for my streamliner are in Canada (Niagara by the lake), and a shell could be made from that for a taller person. Typically though, a speed attempt guy will want to do it all on his own.

I'm not sure what the criteria for "Bicycle" class is going to be, but I'm pretty sure a custom frame with a giant motor and motorcycle running gear with pedals stuck on as an afterthought probably won't do. It will need to look like a bicycle. Maybe a stretched bike with motorcycle tires (you can make the excuse that it is for safety). If it's decided to run at the salt flats, using the small Pirelli motorcycle tires should work. They should ride well on the salt. Something like Luke's bike or a clone of that with gearing for 100MPH and a couple change of gears would probably work well on salt. Maybe that is what DR BASS is looking to do.

-Warren.

 

[www.recumbents.com]

For comparisons sake, here are some examples for an upright style "racing" bike (CD = .38), with high RR tires (0.01), at 4000 feet









So it looks like (according to my simulator) 20KW will be needed to go 100 MPH on a standard bike with no aerodynamic aids.

-Warren.

 

[Doctorbass]

On my NO aerodynamic DH comp mtb and maxxis 24 x 2.5 hookworm and 13kW (batt power) i get 113kmh (70mph) continuous with motor stable at 121 celsius with margin for up to 170 celsius possible. At that rpm the motor is on the sweet spot of efficiency wich is about 76% so output power is 10.5kW

That is corresponding very closely to your estimation on the 10kW ( at the wheel) for a standard bike ( more aerodynamic than a DH with wide tires etc)

Doc

 

[John in CR]

Insurance companies are sure to blow the Battle Mountain idea out of the water, so when you bring it up let them know we'd want to waive insurance. That's obviously the best venue for a streamliner record attempt, and somewhere above 120mph readily achievable....even 150mph isn't out of the question with power at the wheel well under 20kw. If allowed to be included with those guys, we should also have a 750W electric at the wheel plus human power hybrid streamliner and unfaired bikes.

For Bonneville, the rule I saw for motos that separates open from streamliner is that 100% of the rider must be exposed in a view from the side, and viewed from above only the legs and feet can be obscured from view (by the body). I think there's a completely unfared category too, which I find interesting. Trying to get to 100mph with no faring (or is it fairing ???) at all would be an interesting proposition with a hubmotor. I wonder if the Superman prone position is permitted at Bonneville, or if it's really even smooth enough to try.

John

 

[MadRhino]

MadRhino,
The risk is too high. I don't think we can count on such a lightweight bike sliding to a stop on its side. A tire failure has to be considered catastrophic, so It has to be a properly rated moto tire. No knobby would cut it anyway due to too much wind resistance. Those things are like fans even just spun up to 40mph.

John

The Berm Master is a bicycle tire with moto casing and large surface knobs.
I would bet on it to be the best bicycle tire to speed on the salted flats, and confident of the handling I can keep if one blows out on a straight line.

Then I don't know if a motorcycle wheel would be eligible for a bicycle record. If not, this tire can do the task with much lighter weight
...and that ain't bad to be lighter when you want to be faster. :wink:

 

[speedmd]

Looks like we have at least six classes of bikes. Conventional upright, partially fared and fully fared as well as the same in recumbent style bike. May be best to show up with a pair of bikes that can be run in all six categories to get them in the record books and classes established.

For motors we have at least two classes, the hub and the mid drive. Single speed vs tranny equipped

 

[Seriousknot]

I'll be making contact with the guy that has the last say on design and safety later this week. I met him last year when we were trying to get the Superbird through tech. He didn't like a couple of things about the rollbar so he limited our car to 200 mph which effectively meant we could not set a record on that trip. The rollcage was built strictly to the rules as they were printed. So what I will be doing is consulting with him from the very beginning on the chassis and fairing design as it progresses, I will email him pictures so he can give it the yay or nay. He is an authoritarian and he likes to wield his authority. On the second trip, we put out a red herring for the Tech Nerds, we purposely left a pad off the cage so they would see it immediately and be distracted from looking too closely at rest of the car. We quickly installed the pad and they were satisfied lol. Still working on the Kickstarter Account so we can get funded hopefully, I will choose the 30 day option so I can create a sense of urgency.

 

[e-beach]

Still working on the Kickstarter Account so we can get funded hopefully, I will choose the 30 day option so I can create a sense of urgency.

How much money are you going to for?

 

[speedmd]

My vote for the mid drives wheel sponsors list!

 

[Seriousknot]

How much money are you going to for?

I'm thinking about 25K

 

[e-beach]

How much money are you going to for?

I'm thinking about 25K

Sounds possible if done right....I'm thinking it has to be tied into a narrative about the advancement of alternative fuel vehicles or something earthy like that.
Helping save the planet etc...

 

[mat h physics]

Motor heat seems to be a concern, why not pre-cool the motor. This would reduce resistance off the bat, preventing heat generation from the start and give a higher heat range. Dry ice in acetone will get down to superconductor temps, but this will create tolerance problems due to thermal expansion. Such a problem will be compounded by dissimilar metals, but it can be overcome by good design. If this is considered, don't ignore the possibility of insulation. I realize it sounds absurd, but heat moves in, cold doesn't move out.

Also, compressed gas, can be released for a short term cooling effect.