LI-ion NiCoMn Battery from BMSBattery

[999zip999]

I would like to know how well they hold up at 27-30 amps. Thanks

 

[motomech]

I would think that fgiroult is using this battery:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/48v/166-48v-1 ... -pack.html

Yes that one precisely. I hope it will keep on performing well (around 2 C constant & 3C burst)... the pack is not getting warm but these last weeks were very cold here and heat was not an issue !
I found out that 30 amps max is what i need for my daily rides in the city, fast enough to ride safe but not reaching dangerous speeds (over 40/45 km/h).

For my next mountain bike project, i'll need more current to get something fun to ride so i might have to deal with lipos
Fred

Is there a reason that you didn't use the "rack" version of that battery?

 

[fgiroult]

I would like to know how well they hold up at 27-30 amps. Thanks

I'll give an updated status in few month - i'm trying to keep tracks of the charge cycles

Is there a reason that you didn't use the "rack" version of that battery?

My initial plan was to fit the battery inside the bike's frame for a weight balance issue and the form factor of the shrink wrap version is appropriate. After some testing i changed my mind : i just drop the battery in one of my bags on the rack. It doesn't make lot of difference, as it is really light. But if you look at 15 or 20 Ah packs you should consider rack version (+ ability to lock the battery on the bike)

 

[Haste]

Yeah I want to know how in the world your pulling almost 30 amps out of the 48v10ah batt, with a 20a limiter from the bms lol

 

[cwah]

Guys, don't forget the NiCoMn battery are rated 500 cycles at 1C : http://www.ecitypower.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=34&Itemid=55

If you pull continuously 30A you may end up with much less cycles.

Why not consider the new Zippy compact? It has the same volumetric density (168wh/kg): http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21384__ZIPPY_Compact_5800mAh_7S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html
But are rated 25C so you can easily pull 30-40 amps without decreasing the battery number of cycles

 

[fgiroult]

Yeah I want to know how in the world your pulling almost 30 amps out of the 48v10ah batt, with a 20a limiter from the bms lol

Specs give 20A continuous & 40A max - i read somewhere that the bms on this pack was upgraded recently to reach 40 (i 'll try to find the source of this info) Also the value i reported is peak value only

 

[Haste]

oh snap! 7S 5800 lipo! More pricey chargers for that though, and some of us have kids on the way and cannot go LIPO NO WAY.

Li-ion NiCoMn is great light chemistry though, however 500 cycles...

$142 dollars for a "48v" 5.8ah pack is not bad at all, with the high discharge, light weight, light size. Only if they were idiot proofed it would be the beginning of fast cheap ebikes EVERYWHERE.\

I mean, get a very small ammo box, run 2p for a good 14s2p pack, throw in triangle bag. When your done, get home and put in one of those small 10 dollar BBQ with the lid on and no worries. I just have little trust in anything I cannot 100 percent manage. Just the fact of burning down my custom built house is a nightmare, or if im at work and one pack decides it doesnt like me.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I don't see what the fuss is about really.

I'm lipo converted, until you get used to monitoring voltages and getting to know what make it unbalanced, either draining too much or beating the crap out of it, then you have to monitor the voltages every time before bulk charging. And charging in general,If you are using an rc charger it isn't much of a problem.

If I use 5-6 ah ut of my 10 ah pack I rarely have to balance, and I've noticed that if they are very off balance before bulk charging they usually charge up pretty well balanced, though they are only off balance much if I use nearly all the pack.

Setting the controller lvc high enough to make sure you,don't go off balance also helps, and of course helps not to kill your pack!

I charge in the house and store in the shed in my Topeka bag, wrapped in bubble wrap nice and snug, hardly fire proof but 8 months later I'm nt worried about it any more.

It's like this, I don't store the can of petrol for the mower in the house, it's in the shed. I'm not worried about that blowing up, I still have to be careful, same with the lipo!

 

[motomech]

Guys, don't forget the NiCoMn battery are rated 500 cycles at 1C : http://www.ecitypower.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=34&Itemid=55

If you pull continuously 30A you may end up with much less cycles.

Why not consider the new Zippy compact? It has the same volumetric density (168wh/kg): http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21384__ZIPPY_Compact_5800mAh_7S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html
But are rated 25C so you can easily pull 30-40 amps without decreasing the battery number of cycles

Yeah, but remember, his pack is only $259 plus shipping.
44v 10 Ah of the least expensive Lipo and a very basic charger would be that much.
He could buy that rack battery[$279], put the soft pack in the frame and have 48V 20 Ah.
But at that point, Lipo starts to make better economic cents, plus it's lighter, can charge more rapidly. Charger costs go up..

I do like the way LiCoMg holds it's volts though it's discharge curve.

 

[Haste]

Would the 20ah version fit in falcon ev bag?

My controller is max amps 30.. But seems like other users is holding up. I mean it would average 20 amps, with Max 25-30 for very short Bursts at lights and step hills.,

 

[Haste]

they have a newer 15ah lion one also now. there only rated for 40 amps MAX, 20 AMPS cruising, but a 15ah pack would have more cells in parallel so safer for 30amp discharge?

 

[Neophyte]

Would the 20ah version fit in falcon ev bag?

Affirmative.

I have two of the 48V20Ah battery packs and two of the Falcon EV bags. The packs do fit with room to spare for wiring and such. I purchased the two packs at different times. Taking delivery of the first pack in November 2011 and the second in January. The first used [ 6665143 ] cells while the second used upgraded [ 6068135 ] cells. The first is 19.6 Ah in use [ on average ] while the second is 20.4 Ah and is physically slightly smaller.

Both packs have been excellent in use. No problems whatsoever with discharge up to 25A nor with charging.

I plan on buying two more such packs next week for use with my new BMC kit and the Crystalyte HS3540 kit I plan on buying.

I use the two original packs on my eZee set-up. One in a Crystalyte bag on the rear rack and the other in one of the Falcon EV bags in the front triangle. Provides excellent balance and handling and allows me greater than 200 kms distance with a reasonable degree of moderate pedalling.

I took the Falcon EV bags to a local seamstress and had her sew a matching black patch over the green logos. A matter of increasing the stealth factor. Of reducing potential theft. Cheap enough added insurance at five bucks.

I use an Axiom rain cover over the rear rack bag to conceal the [ Crystalyte ] logo.

[ Edit ]

48V20Ah battery pack dimensions...

First pack: [ 279 x 178 x 75 mm ]

Second pack: [ 279 x 165 x 75 mm ]

The latest available: [ 300 x 185 x 75 mm ]

The latest detail coming courtesy of Judy Liu [ bmsbattery@gmail.com ] and, if accurate, means fitting into the Falcon EV bag would be a literal stretch. A little something to consider.

 

[cwah]

Do you also consider the zippy compact from HobbyKing?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__545__85__LiPo_LiFe_NiMH_Battery-ZIPPY_Compact.html

It wasn't available during the time you purchased it, but now it's available!! :lol:

It seems to be a nice alternative to the NiCoMn, for a good price, much higher amps, potentially higher lifecycle and as compact as NiCoMn. Not yet sure how to charge that though! :lol:

 

[Haste]

any updates on this battery? hows it holding up, charging, ect. They have the 10ah version on sale! Good for 15 miles Id say...

 

[Racer_X]

I bought the 48v 10ah Li-ion with the aluminum case for the kids ebike. They seem to work pretty good, don't know much yet about battery life yet because the kids don't ride daily like i do. Since my ping has died recently I found myself using it daily. My biggest problem is the 3a charger that comes with it.

I plan to get the (Alloy Shell 400W Battery EBike Charger).
Would it be safe to charge at a 5a or 6a rate? What is the max charge rate for these batteries.
I chatted with BMSbattery and they said 5a is OK, but I would like to get you guys opinion on this.

 

[motomech]

Charging at 5 Amps is only .5C, not a problem for the cells in the Li-on BMS Battery.
The thing to know about these batteries is that, even at 3 amps, 90% of the charge happens reasonably quickly.
I had a Ebike Ca 48V 8Ah and if taken all the way down to LVC, it would charge up to 90% in 1 1/2 to 2 hr.s.
The remaining 10% took another hr. as the BMS tops it off.

 

[cwah]

Anyone has these batteries for more than 6 months? Have you noticed any reduction in capacity?

 

[NeezyDeezy]

I'm normally pretty open minded and have patience for this kind of thing, but Judy at BMS battery is worthless. Won't/can't send me any of the information I've asked for -- very simple questions asked clearly -- despite repeated attempts. I really don't want to buy something like a battery from these people, especially given the way they're dishonest about the weight of the batteries.

 

[cwah]

48V20Ah battery pack dimensions...

First pack: [ 279 x 178 x 75 mm ]

Second pack: [ 279 x 165 x 75 mm ]

The latest available: [ 300 x 185 x 75 mm ]

The latest detail coming courtesy of Judy Liu [ bmsbattery@gmail.com ] and, if accurate, means fitting into the Falcon EV bag would be a literal stretch. A little something to consider.

How come the latest pack is bigger than the others?

 

[Neophyte]

I prefer the BMSBattery products.

Suit my needs and at a reasonable price.

The packs are well-constructed single units complete with advanced BMS. Charger included.

The specs overall meeting, again, my needs.

As for weight?

I tried numerous times to submit a comment but with no success. Was told by Annie Lei that the comment system wasn't operational. But my message regarding pack weight did hit home as the site page was updated to the correct weight of 7 kg. from the original, and erroneous, 4.8 kg.

Page seen here…

http://www.bmsbattery.com/48v/249-48v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html

Here's what Annie Lei wrote to me…

"Just check the weight of the battery, it should be 7KG, they write the wrong weight on the website. Sorry for that! We will check carefully in the future. For the comment page, it seems it never works; I try it also but no work, I will check with the technician department next week."

And I've been using my packs on a daily basis for just over six months with no issues. Many of the rides are up to 175 km.

There hasn't been any reduction in capacity at all. First battery still at 19.6 Ah while the second is still at 20.4 Ah.

As for the size of the latest packs?

Slightly larger due to different cells being used.

Here's what Judy Liu wrote to me…

"Different battery pack ( different cells ) has the different dimension. Now the order #3115 is 300 X 185 X 75mm more or less. Thanks."

The packs overall are great.

I'm completely satisfied and will definitely buy again.

Good luck with whatever buying decision(s) you make.

 

[cwah]

Thanks for this good feedback neophyte.

So at 7kg, the 48V20AH battery top at 137wh/kg. That's not bad at all.

Do you do 100% depth of discharge frequently? And how many C do you use usually?

 

[neptronix]

Thanks for this good feedback neophyte.

So at 7kg, the 48V20AH battery top at 137wh/kg. That's not bad at all.

Do you do 100% depth of discharge frequently? And how many C do you use usually?

The cheap hobbyking lipos we run here are 140-160wHr/KG.
They also put out 20C. That battery puts out 1C.

I'd say that hobbyking probably has better customer service by a factor of 10, as well.

Everything about this NMC battery has been unimpressive.
And we already know that BMSBattery is an awful company.

 

[cwah]

Yeah, I'm also considering lipo, but they require at minima 15% margin (high voltage / low voltage) capacity.

So a 140wh/kg lipo is equivalent to a 119wh/kg battery. (140wh-15%).

A 160wh/kg lipo is a zippy compact, and 160wh-15% = 136wh/kg usable battery.

So basically we have:
- Zippy compact = 136wh/kg usable battery at 25C but can burn your house and are harder to manage.
- NMC = 137 wh/kg usable battery at 1.5C

The zippy compact would be preferable if they were cheaper. But they are also 20% more expensive than the NMC.


That's why I'm still hesitating :lol:

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, I'm also considering lipo, but they require at minima 15% margin (high voltage / low voltage) capacity.

So a 140wh/kg lipo is equivalent to a 119wh/kg battery. (140wh-15%).

A 160wh/kg lipo is a zippy compact, and 160wh-15% = 136wh/kg usable battery.

The zippy compact would be preferable if they were cheaper. But they are also 20% more expensive than the NMC.
That's why I'm still hesitating :lol:

That's because they have a BMS.
You could put a BMS on a lipo and have the same result.

But realistically these cheap chinese packs come with unmatched cells and BMSes that drain from 1 cell. That's how you get less and less capacity over time. I forget who, but someone is reporting that they're getting 1/2 the capacity of their BMSBattery NMC pack in less than a year..!

You are way better off with the lipo. I also run 10% SOC.. you can too, if you know what you're doing. otherwise 15% is cutting it fairly safe.

 

[cwah]

Yeah, but the BMS is on the NMC side.

Without BMC the NMC battery would have higher volumetric density. They're also cheaper.

I'm just wondering how that extra payment on the lipo worth it. They zippy compact haven't been tested by a members. Maybe it has very short cycle/calendar life.