MAC Front Hub Motor Road Bike Build

[bchaney]

Be sure your parts list has the display unit listed.
Must of their current version display units seems to have an on/off function.
They also list a "Lighting" indicator but nothing about how it is implemented or how lights would be connected.

Good catch, I didn't look close enough at the LCD3 manual to see that. I'm trying to get the LCD5 since it's smaller and has the integrated buttons (not much real estate on my drop bars), but it looks to have the same function where it will turn on the LCD backlight as well as your head/tail lights. I found an LCD5 manual online and it gives a little more detail, it says "the controller should have headlight drive output function". See section 2.1 in the manual here - http://elektrolurchbike.de/test/KT-LCD5_kurz_engl.pdf

As far as I can tell, the only function missing on the LCD5 that's included on the LCD3 is motor temp. The LCD3 would plug directly into the controller harness included in that 11.6Ah package though. Sherry responded saying basically that, I responded this morning that I can wire it myself if they just include the wiring harness, but I'll have to wait until tonite for her response. The 16hr time difference is a killer. They have a holiday coming up so I'm trying to place the order before that.

I only have 1 HWBS on my order, I figure routing the wire to the front brake would be easiest. Is it worth getting one for the rear too?

 

[LewTwo]

I only have 1 HWBS on my order, I figure routing the wire to the front brake would be easiest. Is it worth getting one for the rear too?

I really could not say. I do not use PAS and thus have never used brake switches. With all due respect to motomech, I disagree with him regards pedaling with a throttle but our riding styles are probably different. I freely admit that I do not aggressively pedal. I did on my first e-bike a decade ago but I was always trying to get to work on time. Now I am retired and not in a big hurry --- unless I am trying to get home ahead of a rain storm.

If I were going to install one HWBS then I would probably install both ... they are only $6 each.

 

[bchaney]

Unfortunately Sherry was not able to quote all the parts including the battery pack with integrated controller in 14.5Ah at the same price as I could get everything on the website with the 11.6Ah, for some reason the shipping was $40 more expensive. I will probably just place the order on the website.

They offer the Case-09/dolphin with integrated 20A sine wave (vs 18A in the shark) and a 5v USB output. Could I connect head/tail lights to the USB?

The dolphin case dimensions look bigger as well. Do most people prefer the shark over the dolphin?

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/680-48v116ah-bottle-09-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html?search_query=48v+panasonic+&results=9

I could also save 100 bucks if I went with the no-name cells. Anyone have good/bad luck with those?

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/784-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html

 

[LewTwo]

The only advantage the Shark has over the Dolphin is that it is a bit smaller.

Those no-name cell are rated at 2.5 Ahr ... 10 Ahr for the pack. Other than that ... don't know anything about them.

 

[bchaney]

BMS quote is $643 shipped for Q100H front hub, 48v 14.5Ah panasonic battery with integrated 18A sine wave controller, LCD3, PAS, thumb throttle, HWBS, torque arms, and spoke wrench. What do you guys think of that price? $148 of it is shipping. Similar order on the website is $111 shipping but Sherry tells me that my quote includes all shipping and customs fees and even if I placed the order via the website they'd ask for extra shipping/customs fees later. You buy that?

After a $30 wheel and probably $40 in spokes, my total build would be about $710. More than I had hoped to spend but seems like a solid setup. I keep debating about that MAC 350w front kit from EM3ev. I could get the 350w MAC in a front wheel for 260 shipped, and the battery with integrated controller, LCD, etc., for $503 from BMS for a total of $763. Better deal?

Is there a Q128H front hub motor available anywhere? I am a little concerned about the reliability/longevity of the Q100H at 48v and it sounds like the slightly larger motor would last longer.

I think I've determined that the bmsbattery 14.5Ah shark pack is actually a new "jumbo shark" as seen in the links below.

https://lunacycle.com/48v-panasonic-17-5ah-jumbo-shark-ebike/
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/US-EU-No-Tax-Shark-battery-pack-48V-14-5Ah-Li-ion-Frame-Ebike-Battery-with/1178407_32753436207.html?spm=2114.12010608.0.0.eicimy

 

[LewTwo]

I think I've determined that the bmsbattery 14.5Ah shark pack is actually a new "jumbo shark" as seen in the links below.

If it is then BMS is using the wrong pictures and dimensions on their web site (also would not surprise me). 92mm is not 110mm is not 4 inches. How did you make your determination?

I keep debating about that MAC 350w front kit from EM3ev. I could get the 350w MAC in a front wheel for 260 shipped, and the battery with integrated controller, LCD, etc., for $503 from BMS for a total of $763. Better deal?

That is bit like comparing apples and oranges. I think there is little question that the Mac is a better quality product and you get it laced into a wheel. ... Better value? Ultimately that is your decision.

 

[motomech]

BMS Battery motors come laced for about $20 extra. I have used them and they are OK, especially the frt.s, as they usually only need to have the spokes tightened, no truing or dishing needed. They worse thing I can say about them is the spokes are not SS and can develop some surface rust. Since a battery is included in the order, the shipping cost difference between a bare motor and an ASM may not be that much.
I.M.O., the Mac is too big and heavy for the frt. of the donor bike and will impact the handling, not to mention any attempt at sealthliness. My 2WD's rear motor is an EZee V1, the exact same size and weight(3.5 Kg., I believe)as the Mac. Here one can see the difference between it and a 2.0Kg. Q100;

THe Q128, while being wider and heavier than the Cute, it is only 20mm greater in diameter(108 vs 128).
The Q128 splits the difference between the mini and the large geared motor.
The Q128 from BMS Battery rated 328 rpm @ 48V would be the same as a motor rated 260rpm @ 36V.
I'm not aware of anyone here using the frt. Q128, but it would be interesting to see it tried out
I don't think anything else needs to be changed, the 20 A controller/battery should suit it fine.

 

[bchaney]

I think I've determined that the bmsbattery 14.5Ah shark pack is actually a new "jumbo shark" as seen in the links below.

If it is then BMS is using the wrong pictures and dimensions on their web site (also would not surprise me). 92mm is not 110mm is not 4 inches. How did you make your determination?

I noticed that BMS notes the bigger 14.5Ah pack has "with USB charger" in the title, while the smaller 11.6Ah does not, see links below. Looking at Luna and that Ali shop, all the packs with USB and 5p cells are in the "Jumbo Shark" pack (for some reason the shark is called "hailong" on Ali and the jumbo shark is "new 2016 hailong"). I have placed my order and Sherry says they should finish production before the holiday so I guess we'll find out soon. When she changed my battery order from 11.6Ah to 14.5Ah she added "with USB" as well.

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/819-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html?search_query=48v+panasonic+08&results=9
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/778-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html?search_query=48v+panasonic+08&results=9

BMS Battery motors come laced for about $20 extra. I have used them and they are OK, especially the frt.s, as they usually only need to have the spokes tightened, no truing or dishing needed. They worse thing I can say about them is the spokes are not SS and can develop some surface rust. Since a battery is included in the order, the shipping cost difference between a bare motor and an ASM may not be that much.
I.M.O., the Mac is too big and heavy for the frt. of the donor bike and will impact the handling, not to mention any attempt at sealthliness. My 2WD's rear motor is an EZee V1, the exact same size and weight(3.5 Kg., I believe)as the Mac.
THe Q128, while being wider and heavier than the Cute, it is only 20mm greater in diameter(108 vs 128).
The Q128 splits the difference between the mini and the large geared motor.
The Q128 from BMS Battery rated 328 rpm @ 48V would be the same as a motor rated 260rpm @ 36V.
I'm not aware of anyone here using the frt. Q128, but it would be interesting to see it tried out
I don't think anything else needs to be changed, the 20 A controller/battery should suit it fine.

Unfortunately the 700c wheel added about $60 to the shipping cost just due to the volume. I really wouldn't mind lacing the motor into a wheel myself, but there is some value in my time. Comparing costs of the motors only, the Q100H is $85 plus it adds $38 shipping to my order. Looks like I could get spokes for about $20 and a wheel for about $35, so total for the Q100H in a wheel is $178. The MAC in a wheel is $176 plus $71 shipping so $247 total. $69 more for a better motor including the lacing labor was too hard to pass up, so I will be going this route. I'm also asking Joeseph at EM3ev if he'll sell me just the motor without the wheel, but funny enough he has been slower at getting back to me than Sherry at BMS.

Believe me, I debated this for a long while and changed my mind multiple times. I know I'm adding 3-4lbs more to my bike and that's definitely a concern, but it seems like it's worth it for improved hill climbing ability, speed, and motor reliability/longevity. I'm the kind of person who likes to do it right the first time and not have to make changes later. It just seems like the Q100H wouldn't be enough for the hills around here and the nylon gears are a concern. Like I said it was not an easy decision, especially because the build keeps getting more expensive. The MAC just seems like too good of a deal to pass up and I'm more confident that it will meet or exceed my goals.

The stealthiness is a concern as well, mostly for theft. I may need to look into another bike lock. I found this picture of KarlJ's road bike with drop handlebars and the front MAC, and it looks pretty good IMO.

 

[motomech]

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38118&p=574872&hilit=+girlfriend#p574872

 

[LewTwo]

I noticed that BMS notes the bigger 14.5Ah pack has "with USB charger" in the title, while the smaller 11.6Ah does not, see links below.

Good catch. It will be interesting to find out what turns up. Also looking forward to seeing what the the controller looks like.

You are adding a little weight with the motor and little with battery pack but I do not think you can go wrong with the Mac from EM3EV.
I think the 350 Mac 16T front wheel is the older design with the cable exiting the axle rather than the hub. EM3EV's link to the outline drawing is broke so I have attached a copy to this message. I have added some additional information scraped up from the web site.

Daddy said "Locks only keep honest people honest though they are sometime a minor inconvenience to thieves."

I use a "Master Python 6-Foot Cable Lock". It is fairly small, lightweight and provides enough of a deterrent that someone does not walk/ride off with the bike while I am inside the grocery store. Probably not what someone wants to use to secure a bike overnight. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XTPNZK


View attachment Mac Front 350W Motor M12180D0-1W Outline Eng XX.pdf

 

[bchaney]

You are adding a little weight with the motor and little with battery pack but I do not think you can go wrong with the Mac from EM3EV.
I think the 350 Mac 16T front wheel is the older design with the cable exiting the axle rather than the hub. EM3EV's link to the outline drawing is broke so I have attached a copy to this message. I have added some additional information scraped up from the web site.

Daddy said "Locks only keep honest people honest though they are sometime a minor inconvenience to thieves."

I use a "Master Python 6-Foot Cable Lock". It is fairly small, lightweight and provides enough of a deterrent that someone does not walk/ride off with the bike while I am inside the grocery store. Probably not what someone wants to use to secure a bike overnight. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XTPNZK

Thanks for the drawing. Joseph sent me a different one but it didn't have the weight. Updating my previous estimate with the new motor weight:

Bike - 25.2lbs. If I multiply your 1.26lb by 5 I get 6.3lb worth of cells. Case is probably 2lb? Motor is 8.38lb and wiring/throttle/LCD/BMS/etc is maybe 2lb so I'm probably adding about 19lbs to the bike for a total of 44lbs.

I hope the road bike still feels like a bike.

I noticed that drawing also gives RPM numbers for the standard rear 6T - 12T. I'll ask Joseph what kind of RPMs to expect out of this motor shown as 16T.

I currently have this mini U-lock with cable - https://www.amazon.com/OnGuard-Bulldog-U-Lock-4-Feet-5-52-Inch/dp/B008K3NSLM

I typically use the U-lock thru the rear wheel and frame, with the cable looped thru the front wheel. With this front motor I may have to change my strategy and use the U on the front and frame, with cable looped to the back wheel. Maybe 2 U-locks, but that adds even more weight.

 

[LewTwo]

I noticed that drawing also gives RPM numbers for the standard rear 6T - 12T.

For the 14T & 16T I thought about working backwards from the speed given for a 26 inch wheel ... but I got lazy.

 

[bchaney]

You guys have any concerns about using the BMS integrated 18-20A sine wave controller with the MAC? I know the motor could handle more amps but this controller shouldn't cause issues, right? The Q is a high speed motor so I assume if the controller works for that it should work for the MAC.

Thanks for all of your help, btw.

 

[bchaney]

Sherry sent me a picture of the goodies ready for shipment. I have to say that the service from BMSbattery has been great so far. Obviously I will have to make sure that I get what I ordered before making a final judgement but Sherry has been very helpful in answering all of my questions and providing updated quotes every time that I change my mind.

 

[motomech]

You are going to want at least a 25 Amp controller w/ the Mac. If you use a 20 mp controller, it won't have any more power than a Q100 on a 20 Amp.
It's the controller and battery that makes power, not the motor.

 

[leelorr]

If I remember correctly, not too many controllers work correctly with the MAC because of it's need for high frequency pulses from the controller and the fact that most controllers can not operate fast enough. Hopefully someone here will either expand on that or correct me. :^)

 

[bchaney]

You are going to want at least a 25 Amp controller w/ the Mac. If you use a 20 mp controller, it won't have any more power than a Q100 on a 20 Amp.
It's the controller and battery that makes power, not the motor.

Do the motor characteristics affect the power? Looking at the ebikes.ca simulator, the power and torque lines for the MAC 8T are above the Q100H 201. The MAC 12T curves are even higher. Joeseph said the 16T front is about 230 RPM at 36v. According to LewTwo's drawing the 8T is 320 and the 12T is 200 so the 16T should be closer to the 12T than the 8. The 350w motor is smaller than the rear 500/1000w but it still looks like the MACs should perform better with the same controller and battery, no?

I think that the BMSbattery panasonic packs I've been looking at are limited to 18-20A anyway. Not sure if that's because of the cells or the BMS.

8T vs Q100H 201:
View attachment 1

12T vs Q100H 201:

 

[bchaney]

If I remember correctly, not too many controllers work correctly with the MAC because of it's need for high frequency pulses from the controller and the fact that most controllers can not operate fast enough. Hopefully someone here will either expand on that or correct me. :^)

From the MAC website:
"The Mac motor uses a 32 magnet, 16 pair pole motor unlike the vast majority of Geared motors on the Market which use an 8 pair pole motor. This further improves torque, but does mean that the electrical rpm or commutation frequency is higher than typical geared motors and much higher than Direct-Drive motors, so some care with controller selection is required."

The gear ratio in the MAC is 5:1 where the Q100H is 12.2:1 so the MAC is spinning slower which should help. I think the Cute has 16 magnets and 8 pair poles instead of the 32/16 in the MAC though. I found an older post showing that someone is successfully using an S12S with a MAC so there is at least some hope that a sine wave controller will work.

My BMS order has already shipped so it's too late. Crap. Hope it works.

 

[motomech]

Do the motor characteristics affect the power?

Yes and no.
Considering we are talking about geared motors, what effects performance(not total power out-put)is the motor speed and how it matches whl. size.

....the MAC 8T are above the Q100H 201. The MAC 12T curves are even higher. Joeseph said the 16T front is about 230 RPM at 36v. According to LewTwo's drawing the 8T is 320 and the 12T is 200 so the 16T should be closer to the 12T than the 8.

Did you miss this page?
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=50_36&product_id=56

...but it still looks like the MACs should perform better with the same controller and battery, no?

Depend on what you mean by "perform".
Since the frt. Mac is a 16T speed, it most closely matches the BMC V1, we see that it will be faster than the Q100H 260, 26.5 mph. Climbing performance is about the same w/ the exception that the MAC has more mass and will have a greater resistance to "over-heating". If the mini was not going to "over-heat" for your usage(Something we will never know), this would be a non-issue. Basicly, you have traded motor size and weight for speed(due to the motor "wind").
Personaly, I feel over 25 mph speeds are too fast for your bike and I would suggest you start saving for a mountain bike that has disc brk.s and at least a suspension fork.
Don't worry about the BMS B. controller. It has been years since controllers couldn't "clock" higher speed motors and BMS B. only has one that I know of. And you are not getting it.

 

[bchaney]

Do the motor characteristics affect the power?

Yes and no.
Considering we are talking about geared motors, what effects performance(not total power out-put)is the motor speed and how it matches whl. size.

That makes sense. The motor design does seem to have some affect though, just looking at the shape of the curves. All the Cutes have a similarly shaped curve, just like all the MACs have a similarly shaped curve, but the obvious difference is more torque at lower speeds on the MACs.

...but it still looks like the MACs should perform better with the same controller and battery, no?

Depend on what you mean by "perform".
Since the frt. Mac is a 16T speed, it most closely matches the BMC V1, we see that it will be faster than the Q100H 260, 26.5 mph. Climbing performance is about the same w/ the exception that the MAC has more mass and will have a greater resistance to "over-heating". If the mini was not going to "over-heat" for your usage(Something we will never know), this would be a non-issue. Basicly, you have traded motor size and weight for speed(due to the motor "wind").
Personaly, I feel over 25 mph speeds are too fast for your bike and I would suggest you start saving for a mountain bike that has disc brk.s and at least a suspension fork.

I guess I meant that the MAC torque and efficiency curves are higher than the Cutes at almost any speed. More area under the curve = more performance IMO. I think that you're right about my bike - I will probably not go 25mph often, if ever. Maybe on a long flat section that I've ridden before. The extra speed could be nice, but I really decided on the MAC due to the extra torque and reduced chance of bogging down or overheating, because hill-climbing ability is a top priority. I like the stronger clutch and gears for longevity/durability/reliability as well. I am still concerned about the extra weight though.

Don't worry about the BMS B. controller. It has been years since controllers couldn't "clock" higher speed motors and BMS B. only has one that I know of. And you are not getting it.

Thank you, you made me feel much better. I was worried I'd have to spend more money on another motor or controller.

 

[bchaney]

Oops double post.

 

[rumped6]

BC: I still have the Mac 350w you inquired about.

I don't come to ES much in winter, so missed your message from Jan. 3.

Thanks....John (rumped6)

 

[bchaney]

My order from BMS B arrived, I took some pics of the battery and controller since you guys were interested. They can be found in my build thread here - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=86311

 

[chas58]

Yeah, those numbers are hypothetical, and turned out to be wrong.
(if you remember the original post back in 2012, they were calculated based off of some invalid assumptions)

I bought the motors after that original post many years ago, and verified they spin at the RPM.

201 spins at 201
260 spins at 260
328 spins at 328 rpm.

Values are all at 36v.

If the below numbers were accurate, the 3 motors would almost all have the same speed. 230, 260 and 280 rpm is only about a 2mph spread between each motor. The actual speed difference between the motors is about 5-6mph.

Any idea what the actual RPM of a 260 is? I found this:

From actual motor testing here (mototech):
the 201 version of the motor spins at 230rpm
The 328 version spins at 270 rpm

I found the answer to my question, originally posted by motomech:

These are supposed to be no-load speeds, on the test stand @ 36V, but only the 260 rpm motor are actual. The 201 rpms are actually in the 220 to 230 range and the 328's are usually around 280 to 290.

 

[Hunza]

I’m thinking over to install a Q100H Front Hub Motor (with torque arms) to my heavy duty 26" road touring bike. My weight including the bike will be appr. 110kgs. I mostly will use my bike on flatlands, sometimes appr. max 8% hills for a few km’s. After reading many posts in this forum, I think the best would be to go for a 48V battery.

1. Looking to the 201rpm or the 260 version I have a slight preference for the 260rpm version. As I understand the MXUS XF07 represents the 201rpm and the Outrider_Std the 260rpm version. It seems to me that not opening 100% "the throttle" of the 260rpm version results in -almost- the same efficiency as the 201rpm version (picture 1). I presume the risk for overheating at lower speeds having the throttle not fully open is -almost- the same too (picture 2). But if one day (seldom) I like to go fast (without using my legs as my gears don't fit for that kind of speed) the 260rpm version will give me that opportunity (picture 3). Are my assumptions right or is it better to stick to 201rpm?

2. I’m thinking over to buy the full set at BMS Battery. I like to go for a Panasonic Battery with the controller included. I have two versions in mind:
48V11.6Ah Case-08 Bottle Panasonic Battery Pack 18 sin wave controller
48V11.6Ah Bottle-09 Panasonic Battery Pack 20 sin wave controller
Which one I should go for with the 201rpm or the 260rpm version? When I order at BMS battery should I ask for a specific controller or is it a standard (optimal) version?