Methods 100V 100A Programmable Regen Controller

[gasfreeearth]

Oh man, sorry to hear that. This really makes me think twice about using the 5303 with too many amps, which unfortunately is the only way to get power out of it at low speed right? Maybe I should ask them to ship a 5305 and I'll send the other one back. They are out of the 5304. What do you think?

Good news at least that the controller is the strong link in the chain though, right?

 

[SpeedEBikes]

REALLY
Really.......
I blew ANOTHER X5 last night :?

Temperature was only 130C - totally fine
I was doing my little pattern in the front lawn - over the hill, down the driveway, over the curb, big sliding skid, full blast back up the dirveway, wheelie on the hill... POP. PoP POP.

Neighbor kits say that there were sparks coming out of the air holes in my motor.
Disconnected the controller to eliminate that variable.... Shorted phase wires.

This time I think I actually popped that X5 with brute current. It was not a meltdown deal.

Whatever
Maybe when I take it apart it will be at the solder board inside or something easy.
For now - I am on the wifes bike again.

-methods

What was your pack voltage and what was the current limit setting on the controller? Do you know what the peak current was or for how long you were holding it? Also, what was the winding of the X5? Did the controller survive the phase short?

I blew a Crystalyte 406 motor with a momentary 25 amps at 105 volts. It took a couple weeks. But one day, fresh off the charger as I rolled the throttle on the motor died with a phase short. Opening up the motor I could see the insulation of both the magnet wires and the phase leads was charred on each side of the solder joints. Some of the solder had melted away too. My guess is it had been chronically getting hot at the junction and the insulation had been slowly cooking off for a while.

 

[ejonesss]

methods

that is not good to have sparks come from the motor.

you may want to check the controller because it may be blown too.

 

[SpeedEBikes]

Oh man, sorry to hear that. This really makes me think twice about using the 5303 with too many amps, which unfortunately is the only way to get power out of it at low speed right? Maybe I should ask them to ship a 5305 and I'll send the other one back. They are out of the 5304. What do you think?

Good news at least that the controller is the strong link in the chain though, right?

GFE, theoretically a 5303, 5304 and 5305 should all be able to develop about the same amount of torque assuming they all have the same number of pounds of copper in the windings. The 5303 will have to run a higher current then the 5305 to develop the same torque, but the lower resistance of its shorter thicker windings should allow it to do so. However, the windings aren't the complete story as they all run the same gauge phase leads in through axle hole. While the phase leads should be lower resistance than the magnet wire, they don't radiate heat as effectively either. So it is possible there are differences in the peak torque any of these motors can develop before failure.

And the above all assumes that the motors weren't already driven into flux saturation. Has anybody done dyno testing of the X5 series at power levels approaching motor failure? Is torque still increasing at that point?

Anyway, if you can't get more torque the other way to increase the power is to increase the speed. If you are using the motor in a 26" wheel you can get a nice performance boost going to a 20" wheel. I don't know if anyone has tried one of these in an 18" or 16" wheel but I imagine it would be tough to lace up. And you'd need an angled valve stem.

 

[gasfreeearth]

Thanks for the info SpeedEBikes. Thats good to know. Has anyone tried a 602 series motor from Enertrac? As long as the current was limited by Methods controller so an accidental twist doesn't flip the bike out from under you, it seems a lot of the hole drilling for cooling would be eliminitated. Sure the cost would be more and a custom wide rear mount would need to be fabricated, but it seems like the best of both worlds. Top speed and low speed torque. Comments?

 

[methods]

Hey man I want to know what happened to it. I am pushing my just as hard, my only advantage is I have a cooler climate. I don't want to go over the handle bars or end up on the other side of the city with a seized rear wheel on a heavy ass bmx!

Running the kind of power you are running will result in blown up stuff. You mod cars - you know this
A locked real wheel is no big deal. Practice locking up the rear brake at 30mph - you will catch on.

This is why front motors are hazardous. I had a front motor lock up and spin the axle out of the forks going 30. Did a superman but was wearing a motorcycle jacket, gloves, and full face helmet so I did not get hurt.

-methods

 

[methods]

Oh man, sorry to hear that. This really makes me think twice about using the 5303 with too many amps, which unfortunately is the only way to get power out of it at low speed right? Maybe I should ask them to ship a 5305 and I'll send the other one back. They are out of the 5304. What do you think?

Good news at least that the controller is the strong link in the chain though, right?

Well... One thing you have going for you is that the 5303 has lower winding resistance and more phase wires in parallel. That means less I*2 * R losses in the motor but...

The 5305 will require 24S (88V) to give you supreme performance. You can still only hit about 45mph in a 26" wheel. Running less than 88V on a 5305 will prove to be a setup that is anemic for the performance enthusiast.

A 5303 is too high strung in my opinion for a high power setup. You end up having to run a screwy KV combo

example: To freewheel around 50mph

5305: 24S lipo
5303: 15S lipo

5305: 3KW
5303: 2KW

5305: 140 lbs of thrust
5303: 80 lbs of thrust

Ok - so to match the thrust performance of the 5305 you end up having to go up, up, up on the voltage
You have to run the 5303 at 88V to match the thrust off the line of the 5305 - but that puts your freewheel speed at like 80 miles per hour
That means that you have to current limit aggressively - this means nasty transients all the time.

The ideal setup is one where the KV of the motor matched with the voltage of the battery puts your desired top speed just below the freewheel speed. This will allow you to do minimal current chopping and maximize performance and efficiency. The farther you move from this the less idea the system becomes. To take it to an extreme - if you used an ULTRA high KV motor with a freewheel speed of 1000mph......... Think about the implications of that.

So - on the boards you are going to see most people with a 5304 because that is the sweet spot for normal folks with a 72V battery. Some people have a 24S battery but run the 5304 in a smaller wheel. Guys like me prefer to run a 5305 with 24S because I want a larger wheel with high torque... What you will see in common is that we are all trying to match our freewheel speed to our battery voltage.

So.... there is no hurry. Take your time, do some reading, do some simulations.
Any setup will work so long as provisions are made to accommodate and expectations reasonable.

-methods

 

[methods]

What was your pack voltage and what was the current limit setting on the controller? Do you know what the peak current was or for how long you were holding it? Also, what was the winding of the X5? Did the controller survive the phase short?

I blew a Crystalyte 406 motor with a momentary 25 amps at 105 volts. It took a couple weeks. But one day, fresh off the charger as I rolled the throttle on the motor died with a phase short. Opening up the motor I could see the insulation of both the magnet wires and the phase leads was charred on each side of the solder joints. Some of the solder had melted away too. My guess is it had been chronically getting hot at the junction and the insulation had been slowly cooking off for a while.

Pack voltage was around 90V
Current limiting was around 120A which means I will see around 200A peaks at 90V
I was stalling the motor so I was probably bouncing around between 120A and 200A for a while
I think the controller may have been taken out but I am not sure yet.

This is not the first and it wont be the last.
They need to make better motors for me.

-methods

 

[methods]

Has anybody done dyno testing of the X5 series at power levels approaching motor failure? Is torque still increasing at that point?

Yea - I have been running a 5305 with near no current limit since day one.
I melted one down at 420F
With phase currents limited to around 200A you can feel the difference in the first few seconds of acceleration
The 5305 will make more power for every amp you give it but it will overheat in just 30 seconds.

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

What about this methods a 5304 in a 20 inch wheel but..... Your missing one good point mine spins faster so I get more cooling and it meens I get out of the current limit faster. And the factor of gear reduction which meens you need more watts to make the same thrust as I do! Who wants to sponsor me a motor to see how long I can run mine wide open?

 

[methods]

Absolutely - the faster you spin a motor the better.
16" with a 5303 would be even better yet

BUT - you are riding a BMX.
That limits any sort of off-road stuff you can do.
For a big 6'4" guy like me I need at least a 24" wheel.

You and Steveo can run the 5304 in a 20" wheel but it really is a bit impracticable for anything other than blasting around on roads. I do 40mph off-road on in riverbeds, through bush, across plowed fields, you name it. I am already bashing my pedals on the ground - cant imagine what would happen on 20" wheels.

But agreed - the smaller the wheel you can run (i.e. the higher RPM you can run) the better.

-methods

 

[ejonesss]

will soldering up the shunts in the controller allow more power?

Has anybody done dyno testing of the X5 series at power levels approaching motor failure? Is torque still increasing at that point?

Yea - I have been running a 5305 with near no current limit since day one.
I melted one down at 420F
With phase currents limited to around 200A you can feel the difference in the first few seconds of acceleration
The 5305 will make more power for every amp you give it but it will overheat in just 30 seconds.

-methods

 

[methods]

I usually like to refill the electrolytic capacitors with unobtainium to increase power.

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

6'4" hu wow I am 6'1" and people say I look funny on my bmx but I love it! I would like to bash offroad too but suspension is definatly needed for that. Do you cover all the holes you driled in your x5 when you were off roading it? do you think maybe some debris got in there? I could imagine what a rock inside an 100volt powerd moving ac engine would do. I do think I am hooked but for an off road bashing tool I will build 2wd as well. I have found alot of good motocross tires for bicycle wheels.

 

[methods]

Do you cover all the holes you driled in your x5 when you were off roading it? do you think maybe some debris got in there?

Nope - just gaping holes.
The only time I really worry about something getting in there is when I do a long sweeping skid. That is just about the only time that rocks are being thrown out right in front of the motor when it is moving sideways. Here is something to think about:

Hole size: 1"

Ok - but what does that mean?
That means that if you are perpendicular to the hole and it is stationary it is 1"
If you look at that same hole at a 45 degree angle it is MUCH smaller.
Look at it from the front of the bike and it is non-existent.

Now - imagine trying to toss pebbles into that hole.
Easy enough right?
Now try to toss pebbles in that hole while the wheel is turning at 50RPM... Impossible.
An object would have to be moving very fast from just the right angle with just the right timing to get in there.

So - I am not worried about it one bit.

I have torn the motor down twice since drilling the holes and other than some dust I did not see anything that lead me to believe that any sort of damage had occurred.

Of course - I have 5 ebikes, 25 motors, 30 controllers, 40AH of 100V lipo, and everything I need to make 10 more bikes so.... I dont really care if a motor gets trashed. I can see where someone would be a little more conservative if this was their sole means of transportation.

Damage easily *could* happen if one were to have bad luck.

-methods

 

[methods]

Oh yea - so the wheels are here at my place but I am moving kind of slow.
I need to re-lace and true up the wheels, work out packing issues, figure out shipping costs, etc.
For those interested in a combo deal I am going to set up 4 wheels today.
After those 4 I will probably sell the rear hubs "as is" meaning the end user will be responsible for truing up the hub.
We will see.

They ship to me with a poor lacing pattern and loose spokes.
9 of the freewheel side spokes were put in backwards which leads to a gap between the spokes. This is fine - but it leads to spokes getting loose quick and a bad offset.
There are several solutions but the one I like (and the one used by Justin at ebikes.ca) is to reverse 9 of the spokes such that all 36 spokes have the butt facing away from the freewheel side. Doing this shifts the offset a little in the correct direction and when added to slightly more tension on the freewheel side the wheel lines up close enough to dead center. There are other ways to address the issue that may involve less labor but this is the solution that I like.

If I work lightning fast I can swap the 9 spokes that need to be swapped to get the offset correct, tighten everything up, and do a quick truing in 15 minutes
Not the most efficient use of my time though.... As I dont get paid jack for this.

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

Double poster So tell me what is a 9c like whould there be a 9c wind that compares to a x5304? and how much can it handle how? much is it worth?

 

[methods]

I will triple post if I want son - you are in my thread

With 88V and 100A current limit you can get near X5 performance for a burst or two then it overheats.
With 88V and 35A current limit you can hit 55mph but acceleration is anemic. Motor does not overheat though and you can build a VERY lightweight and cheap bike. If I was going to go on an "adventure" I would select the 9C with high voltage and low current.

With 88V and 2WD 9C you can get better than X5 performance.
More thrust, higher top speed, better low speed torque, lighter overall weight, better weight distribution, less stress to as single wheel, etc.
The problem is actually that you cant load the motors down enough... a 10x6 wind would probably be better since a 2WD 9x7 wind will freewheel at 50mph for only 18A per motor. Maybe even ebikes.ca's new 5 turn ultra high KV motor. Like to try that bad boy - thats how you break 60mph.

Two main problems are that the front wheel gets no traction off the line so you really need traction control.
Second main problem is that the Infineon type controllers have a feedback issue which causes them to interact with each other when sharing 1 throttle. We are working a solution and it is just a matter of time but for now I use 2 throttles. That is some serious DR DANGER ish -> Let me tell you. Working 1 throttle is tough enough. On a 2WD bike you can light up the front wheel at will going almost any speed.

The 9C is a better quality motor than any Crystalyte. They just dont have the power handling of an X5. If they made a bigger version of the 9C it would be a slam dunk for the performance standard.

-methods

 

[methods]

Double post - just to be an ass

 

[bonzo]

lol...

 

[Mike1]

Methy,

In an earlier post you list the LVC setting and resulting real cutoff voltage after the regen mod has been done. Your table goes up to a setting of 80V. The software I have only goes up to 57V, have you got a newer version?

Mike.

 

[methods]

Nope.

That was meant to apply to the regen settings that go up to 75V.
It extends further just as an artifact of the copy-n-paste from Excel.

It should be noted though that guys have been hacking the binary
You probably can forcibly enter a larger number if you really want to.
I have read that they have bumped the speed setting up over 120
Be careful tho....

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

Hmmmmmm...... I like hacking software! Hey methods I ment to ask when you enter the LVC number in the software is it a % or is it the volts below or is it volts that the battery is at when the controller hits LVC? I also noticed that when I burn a flash into the controller it seems to not always take even though it says succsess and the blue bar went accross! I had to flash about 15 times to get the speed setting #3 to work otherwise it was the same as #2 even though thats not what I flashed!

 

[methods]

Hmmmmmm...... I like hacking software! Hey methods I ment to ask when you enter the LVC number in the software is it a % or is it the volts below or is it volts that the battery is at when the controller hits LVC? I also noticed that when I burn a flash into the controller it seems to not always take even though it says succsess and the blue bar went accross! I had to flash about 15 times to get the speed setting #3 to work otherwise it was the same as #2 even though thats not what I flashed!

The LVC and Regen are in Volts.

The software always takes when you see a "success" sign in my experience.
The speed settings can be confusing - they dont go in the order of Low, Med, High - as you may have found by now.
Also -there are two speed modes. One will "Latch" your speed selection at start up while the other will allow you to change speed settings on the fly.
Which are you using?

I can say that I have programmed hundreds of controllers and I have never had a case where I felt that I did not get a successful flash after seeing the success message. Something else must be going on.

-methods

 

[Mike1]

Nope.

That was meant to apply to the regen settings that go up to 75V.
It extends further just as an artifact of the copy-n-paste from Excel.

It should be noted though that guys have been hacking the binary
You probably can forcibly enter a larger number if you really want to.
I have read that they have bumped the speed setting up over 120
Be careful tho....

-methods

Thanks Methods,

I only asked out of curiousity as the older EB8xx board could be programmed up to 64V LVC, I'll be performing the regen mod anyway so it wont really matter to me.