Mid-drive IPM motor options?

[kiwifiat]

Not sure if this was posted, but here's an interesting link on a blog where someone took one of those IPMs and used it in a go-kart to get 40+ lb feet of torque and all the instructions of how he did it (though it is WAY above my intelligence right now). MAD stuff. I wonder how much each of these "units" goes for if bought wholesale from Hyundai?

http://isopack.blogspot.com/p/electric-shifter-kart.html

car-part.com is your friend here, $45USD for a 22kW capable IPM motor Makes a QS IPM look expensive. coleasterling and I keep an eye on those ex-MIT guys too, they do a lot of great stuff and most of it very educational as well.

 

[tylerwatts]

Thanks folks. Interesting reading.

Cheers
Tyler

 

[electric_nz]

older cyclone 1680W motor appears to be IPM

https://mrbill.homeip.net/albums/cyclone_motor/index4.html

 

[ZERONEST]

what build is this going in?

 

[tylerwatts]

older cyclone 1680W motor appears to be IPM

https://mrbill.homeip.net/albums/cyclone_motor/index4.html

Interesting, thanks. Their website isn't great for info but I've emailed to ask.

Cheers
Tyler

 

[tylerwatts]

what build is this going in?

Italjet scooter conversion, retaining the drive assembly and housing and I'll use the CVT to start but can go fixed speed later if better.

Cheers
Tyler

 

[mechhead]

Hi Nice discussion , Seeing as you are all looking at big flat motors for a killer middrive, i thought i would add my latest to the mix , probably a lot more affordable than most of the others as well its the core out of a muxs xf15 1 108mm x23mm stator wound with 6 turns of 10 inhand 0.5mm copper and 0.35mm lams 48kv here is a pic or two

 

[Skaiwerd]

Do you think it would work on half the voltage or less? Normal is 160v. And work with normal controllers? I found some pictures.

 

[kiwifiat]

Sure you can run it on any voltage that suits your application. I was testing an IMA inverter/Sonata HSG today on 6S lipo.

Bear in mind that power = angular velocity x torque so at a lower voltage you will get less power. At 80V the motor will turn at ~2500rpm. As far as how it would run on a standard sensorless trap china controller I would hazard a guess and say poorly. The motor is an IPM and therefor generates reluctance torque as well as PM torque and to get the best out of it you need a controller that can handle FOC. The lebowski controller works well with IPM motors. Also the HSG has a resolver not HALL sensors so you need a resolver to HALL converter or fit an RLS encoder from Slovenia.

 

[tylerwatts]

Do you think it would work on half the voltage or less? Normal is 160v. And work with normal controllers? I found some pictures.

Skaiwerd where did you get these photos please? I would like to know stator diameter of this motor.
Thanks

Cheers
Tyler

 

[Skaiwerd]

Do you think it would work on half the voltage or less? Normal is 160v. And work with normal controllers? I found some pictures.

Skaiwerd where did you get these photos please? I would like to know stator diameter of this motor.
Thanks

Cheers
Tyler

Hi
I found the links in the page about the dual motor go cart, it’s where they got their start and inspiration. A govt study of some sorts. It’s a link in the first paragraph if I remember correctly.

 

[tylerwatts]

Do you think it would work on half the voltage or less? Normal is 160v. And work with normal controllers? I found some pictures.

Skaiwerd where did you get these photos please? I would like to know stator diameter of this motor.
Thanks

Cheers
Tyler

Hi
I found the links in the page about the dual motor go cart, it’s where they got their start and inspiration. A govt study of some sorts. It’s a link in the first paragraph if I remember correctly.

Can you share a link to the kart thread please? I can't find it. Cheers

Cheers
Tyler

 

[Skaiwerd]

2nd sentence has the links that started the interest in this particular ipm motor

Actually it’s the third paragraph

http://isopack.blogspot.com/2017/08/new-go-kart.html?m=1

 

[tylerwatts]

Thank you

Cheers
Tyler

 

[john61ct]

The motor is an IPM and therefor generates reluctance torque as well as PM torque and to get the best out of it you need a controller that can handle FOC. The lebowski controller works well with IPM motors. Also the HSG has a resolver not HALL sensors so you need a resolver to HALL converter or fit an RLS encoder from Slovenia.

Why? I thought FOC works equally well from phase current sensors,

?? or even sensorless ??

Nowhere have I seen that encoders are required for FOC, unless by a particular implementation design. . .

 

[kiwifiat]

The motor is an IPM and therefor generates reluctance torque as well as PM torque and to get the best out of it you need a controller that can handle FOC. The lebowski controller works well with IPM motors. Also the HSG has a resolver not HALL sensors so you need a resolver to HALL converter or fit an RLS encoder from Slovenia.

Why? I thought FOC works equally well from phase current sensors,

?? or even sensorless ??

Nowhere have I seen that encoders are required for FOC, unless by a particular implementation design. . .

I can't see how you construe the fact that Lebowski controller requires HALL sensors to deliver full torque from standstill to mean that encoders are required for FOC or that sensorless operation is not possible.

You may be able to get away with sensorless operation with the Lebowski controller on a bicycle, boat or aircraft propeller but for a car or motorcycle application HALL sensors are required.

The fact that Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, BMW,Honda,Ford, and Hyundai all use resolvers on their IPM traction motors should lead you to conclude that there is no current sensorless solution for traction applications. That is not to say it is impossible as Lebowski has recently demonstrated with his cordless drill demonstration.

 

[amberwolf]

Why? I thought FOC works equally well from phase current sensors,

?? or even sensorless ??

Nowhere have I seen that encoders are required for FOC, unless by a particular implementation design. . .

Phase current sensors have nothing to do with motor position sensors.

 

[john61ct]

Relevant thread maybe a better place for the more general FOC / ebike discussions rather than diverting this thread

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105139

 

[mechhead]

I thought I would bump this thread because IPMs are cool and i found some more small ones , check out the offerings from senli magnet


This one looks remarkably like the new small block IPM from Lightning Rods it might be nice on a norco fs frame i have gathering dust
https://www.senlimotors.com/e-bike-motor/SL120-35IPM.html

They have quite a few different sizes all in the 800w to 10kw area

I've asked for spec sheets for some ill see what they send

 

[mechhead]

SL120 series ipm
62.5kv
0.35mm lams
N40sh magnets
12 slots
10 poles
120mm stator dia
12 and 14mm shaft available with 4x4mm keyway also supplies 219h sprockets

photo of internals of their ipm type

SL120-12-30

data for IPM type 30, 35 and 50mm length stators
View attachment SENLI-120-12-30IPM.pdf
View attachment SENLI-120-12-35IPM.pdf
View attachment SENLI-120-12-50.pdf