Mongoose Blackcomb

[Barncat]

Got a welcome warning from mxlemming a couple hours ago re the 75200 ESC aluminum cover plate having a potentially serious rub with a couple small capacitors on the board. Don't want a !

Many of you are probably already aware of the issue, and there's a video out there about it. My unit showed the same light interference marks.

Used the Dremel to recess 3 spots as shown and then pressed on some "donut holes" from 18650 shoulder protectors.

Pics also show a thick factory layer of thermal paste under the mosfets, so that's good.

 

[scianiac]

Thanks for posting this, guess I'm off to go cut some clearance slots into my case too. Annoyingly right after I siliconed it shut I have to take it apart again but that actually when quite smoothly. I'm working on a removable waterproof cover with cable passithrough for the 75200 case that combined with silicone on the perimeter and around power/phase should make it splash resistant.

 

[Barncat]

scianiac- hope you sorted out your case mods ok.

As it happens, I'm not too thrilled with my new Flipsky 75200 controller. Haven't blown it up like the previous makerx unit, but I just found the fault codes it's throwing every time I hit WOT for a few seconds. Nasty current spikes! I consider it unsafe to continue using, despite my 15s battery being protected by a 100A Littelfuse...

At no point have I exceeded their advertised spec settings, and I've heard that these units may have inherent design flaws in terms of controlling current accurately.

 

[Barncat]

Last week I got so pissed at the U15 motor cutting out at full throttle I said screw it and slapped on a lowly MY1020. Adapting it without altering the existing motor mount was a bit involved but was successful.

It tops out in the high 40's as is with 13/80 gearing, but pulls smoothly from standstill to WOT with nice midrange torque. I'm running 170 motor amps. It could take 200 or a bit more IMO with active cooling. It's been 85F here in FL lately...

The controller still works and barely gets warm. So it can handle a lot of current but can't track a high pole motor. Conversely, the Makerx unit could track the U15 but couldn't handle current.

 

[SlowCo]

Great work again Barncat!
I'm amazed at the amount of amps this motor is able to take. And I assume that the acceleration is decent with this tall gearing? Do you often use the top speed? I'm planning on aiming for appr. 30mph with my MY1020 and the original controller it came with. Nice to know I can always upgrade to a more serious controller for better acceleration if needed.

 

[Barncat]

Hey SlowCo- yes the acceleration is very good with what I consider to be midrange gearing- I can make the front wheel get pretty light if desired. Could get back into the low 50mph range with a 15T front sprocket by trading some torque. This is the 3000W rated motor btw. I do bursts of top speed where appropriate; this is a pretend Class 2 ebike (no pedals, 750W, 20mph) so i like to have a defensible explanation if needed . I use the rear view mirror a lot.

These motors will easily get you to low 40's with either a 20s battery or amps and gearing. They don't dissipate heat very well though. Somebody on YouTube has a motor with a factory internal fan blade but I've not come across one, may be the lower watt versions... Anybody else out there have one?

Overall this is a tad disappointing relative to what the U15 is capable of, but my considerable efforts on vesc-tool failed to run it acceptably. I'll probably experiment with a different motor next "winter".

 

[Barncat]

Below are the #s I'm running, on the Ortega original observer with 25A field weakening. Since this rear wheel doesn't freewheel, the regen works well with the left side thumb throttle.

 

[larsb]

Regarding vescs and setup, i just read this thread on esk8 forum:

How to update firmware on the Flipsky 75100 & 75200 FOC ESC

This 84v 100a ESC can often be found on AliExpress for under $100 shipped. Flipsky used to claim that the firmware cannot be updated and won’t release the source code, so I worked out the hardware config and compiled custom versions. Those versions are now part of the VESC Tool. However, a...

forum.esk8.news

To summarise a long thread: flipsky stole the 75100 design made by user ”ypl” here on endless sphere, stole the VESC firmware developed for a different hardware - which causes problems with all sorts of things since stuff in the hardware like current sensors and temp sensors aren’t the same.

To fix that there’s a corrected firmware for these controllers, now integrated in the vesc tool. follow the instructions in the first post of the thread.

This might be the reason for your hi200 dying also since the wrong firmware can screw up the motor control.

 

[mxlemming]

Regarding vescs and setup, i just read this thread on esk8 forum:

How to update firmware on the Flipsky 75100 & 75200 FOC ESC

This 84v 100a ESC can often be found on AliExpress for under $100 shipped. Flipsky used to claim that the firmware cannot be updated and won’t release the source code, so I worked out the hardware config and compiled custom versions. Those versions are now part of the VESC Tool. However, a...

forum.esk8.news

To summarise a long thread: flipsky stole the 75100 design made by user ”ypl” here on endless sphere, stole the VESC firmware developed for a different hardware - which causes problems with all sorts of things since stuff in the hardware like current sensors and temp sensors aren’t the same.

To fix that there’s a corrected firmware for these controllers, now integrated in the vesc tool. follow the instructions in the first post of the thread.

This might be the reason for your hi200 dying also since the wrong firmware can screw up the motor control.

Different ESC. This isn't the one with "ypl design"/firmware, it's a makerbase design. If you follow that instruction/firmware you'll likely end up with a fire ball.

The plot thickens with regards to flipsky designs, since they share a lot of designs with other Chinese manufacturers. There's some more complicated transactions than are being let on between them.

 

[larsb]

On the efoil forum a user just updated his makerbase 75200 esc with this firmware and got it running well, temp sensors started to report correct values in vesc tool and motor runs quieter.

I guess the makerbase is a copy, the casing on makerbase 75200 is exactly the same as the flipsky 75200

I checked pics and the hi200 sure has a different hardware layout so that’s most likely got differences in the hardware though.
Good point

 

[larsb]

@mxlemming: still wonder, maybe you can elaborate on one thing since you’re familiar with hardware design: Apparently the flipsky vescs are delivered with 75300 firmware but the 75300 hardware is apparently built with “phase” shunts. It’s mentioned in this thread that in the 100V vescs there are low side shunts due to the rating of one of the drivers:






I guess that could relate also to the hi200 - if that’s delivered with 75300 firmware?
What i’m getting at is that if there is a wrong firmware also in the hi200 then that could explain the ”bursting into flame” part..

This is the thread:

FS75300 - Flipsky - is anybody tested ??

They use 75_300_R2 on all of those models. 75100v2 Original ebike version 75100 Aluminum PCB 75200 Aluminum PCB 75300 Aluminum PCB The 100 and 200 are for sure low side shunts. I’m 99% sure the 75300 is as well. I have a working hardware config for it but need more testing.

forum.esk8.news

@Barncat: do you know which firmware the hi200 was delivered with?

 

[Barncat]

Larsb- if the HI200 came with a data sheet I can't find it, so it probably didn't. Maybe 5.02 firmware? My computer skills and interest in software development and the whole backstory of vesc are marginal at best... I can follow instructions, and leave the heavy lifting of electronics design to those who are qualified. I see maker-x has a new G300 boasting very impressive specs- will wait for some real world reviews on that.

FWIW, generically speaking, if you don't want your intellectual property copied, don't design it in the public domain. I eventually revealed my "Barncat Battery" for $0 to the DIY community. Both of mine work flawlessly and are used daily. If they're ever copied, so be it, I just want the credit.

If I ever get my lathe down here I'm probably going to scratch build some welded aluminum frames similar to the Blackcomb, and assemble a new optimized 20s p42a battery pack. There's still a hole in the easy-to-control 5lb 7-8kw rated motor department though... I want to stay in the ultra fast bicycle not slow motorcycle category.

 

[larsb]

I might agree on the copying, especially since vesc is an open source but what they did was apparently to buy an ESC from ypl (student with skills) and reverse engineer it, then slap the wrong firmware on it. It then ”sorta” works. And sold it to unknowing customers which killed quite a few of them since the firmware is wrong (phase filters, anyone?)

That’s a shitty business practice, but also fraud as the company makes money on a flawed product.

 

[mxlemming]

@mxlemming: still wonder, maybe you can elaborate on one thing since you’re familiar with hardware design: Apparently the flipsky vescs are delivered with 75300 firmware but the 75300 hardware is apparently built with “phase” shunts. It’s mentioned in this thread that in the 100V vescs there are low side shunts due to the rating of one of the drivers:

View attachment 331972

View attachment 331971


I guess that could relate also to the hi200 - if that’s delivered with 75300 firmware?
What i’m getting at is that if there is a wrong firmware also in the hi200 then that could explain the ”bursting into flame” part..

This is the thread:

FS75300 - Flipsky - is anybody tested ??

They use 75_300_R2 on all of those models. 75100v2 Original ebike version 75100 Aluminum PCB 75200 Aluminum PCB 75300 Aluminum PCB The 100 and 200 are for sure low side shunts. I’m 99% sure the 75300 is as well. I have a working hardware config for it but need more testing.

forum.esk8.news

@Barncat: do you know which firmware the hi200 was delivered with?

What Frank says about the shunt amplifiers is true, but it's not entirely fair. The reason I think this is that until about a year ago the VESC firmware didn't really use the phase filters and phase shunts, so it made no difference. Then one day Benjamin went and made the 75xxx firmware all rely on the phase filters and used phase shunts for silent hfi and for a brief period this was terminal for any ESC that had previously worked absolutely fine. It wasn't just flipsky that was hit by this, it was plenty of home brew makers as well as maker x.

Few weeks later an update went out that detected non compliant hardware and converted it back to safety.

Regarding the naming convention, everyone else hates Trampa's naming convention and it's not what the rest of the controller world outside VESC uses. You can't run the Trampa hardware at the name ratings, they'll simply turn themselves off. So why name them such? A typical assumption people make is that a 75V ESC will run with a 72V battery. But if you mate trampa 75300 with 20s... Fire before you even try to spin. In other posts Frank gets angry when people name their VESC copies VESC or 75300/100250 and hence we have Axiom, a200s, hi200, Ubox100, CL1000... Flipsky just went and chose to name theirs with a daft combination of Trampa meets normal ebike rating system...

Regarding ypl copying... It's no more copying to use ypl firmware than 75300 firmware. The board ypl posted was clearly a different layout, whoever designed the flipsky version had clearly done it from absolute scratch so copying? I dunno... A dubious claim and hardly a crime when the entire VESC community just relentlessly copies the Trampa schematics. You could easily say ypl copied the original micro nucular design (check it, basically the same), it's just a really obvious layout.

The wrong firmware situation arose because they couldn't get the firmware from ypl until it was too late (which by the GPL licence they were entitled to) and then Frank/everyone on esk8 started yelling GPL at them... So they panicked, pulled the ypl firmware version and replaced it with a bodged 75300 "compatible"version. Absolute shit show.

The entire VESC world is copycat, crying for someone being copied and feeling bad about it is ridiculous.

 

[larsb]

Interesting, thanks for the long explanation.

On the flipsky development: mating a hardware to an incorrect firmware - and selling it like this is poor, especially since the basic issue must now be known for a long time. 250$ for a 75200 is cheaper than trampa but it’s not so cheap that you buy two and accept them breaking or delivering poorly.

@Barncat, thanks for borrowing your thread, i think this is getting offtopic enough to leave this subject.

 

[Barncat]

No problem, this bike project has been as much about my flailing away at Chinese controllers as anything, but yes we can put the ethics discussion to rest. I don't know enough about electronics to say exactly why the HI200 fried.

On simpler topics, I can say the Blackcomb frame is an outstanding performer on the street with the speedway style wheel setup, despite the inexpensive air fork and rear suspension. Excellent bump absorption, precise steering and cornering at speed. I attribute this primarily to the aluminum spar mainframe.

I feel a bit of a failure for resorting to a lesser, heavier motor, but I'll see what develops over the next few months when I resume building...