Motor Connector - Readily available?

[Tetrault]

This is an OEM ebike with some variation of a bafang fat hub motor. The male and female ends screw together similar to an L1019 motor connector.

It appears to be a Higo L1114.
Is this a common connector?
Does anyone know of an online source to buy just a single (or a couple) sets of these types of connectors for USA delivery?

My "googling" skills lead me to a few sites similar to this: Higo - F.M-L1114 - E-Bike - Motor - Connector by Higo Technology (Suzhou) Co., Ltd
But they seem to want large volume purchases, or otherwise are unresponsive to my request for a single unit.

Thanks!

 

[amberwolf]

I haven't seen that variation before. What did you need to do with the new connector(s)? (there might be an alternate solution)

 

[E-HP]

This is an OEM ebike with some variation of a bafang fat hub motor. The male and female ends screw together similar to an L1019 motor connector.

It appears to be a Higo L1114.

Why don't you think it's an L1019? I googled the other direction for bafang fat hub motor connector. Here's the female side, but both came up.

https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005003494056957.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2deu

Oops, wrong pins. Let me look at the other results.

 

[Tetrault]

I haven't seen that variation before. What did you need to do with the new connector(s)? (there might be an alternate solution)

Thanks for pointing this out.

The bike has a dispaly with little to no adjustability and a controller with voltage-based PAS. I primarily use PAS, not throttle, and I much prefer an adjustable power-based PAS. I was considering replacing the display with a stand alone Cycle Analyst as a solution, but also considering installing a new display/controller, as I am not aware of another device like the cycle analyst that could allow for a "simulated" power-based PAS from a voltage based controller.

In either case, I wanted to avoid cutting any OEM wiring if possible by adding an extension to the existing connector(s). So for the display/controller option, I wanted to avoid cutting the OEM wiring between the motor and controller, figuring it would be relatively easy to find a new female connector to wire an "adaptor" from the L1114 to a more common L1019 or other common type.

However there are probably at least two different discussions in these alternate solutions that may have already been had at length on this forum.

 

[amberwolf]

The bike has a dispaly with little to no adjustability and a controller with voltage-based PAS. I primarily use PAS, not throttle, and I much prefer an adjustable power-based PAS.

If your controller has a PAS that is even variable output (meaning the faster you pedal the more assist you get) then it's already in a class of it's own, as almost all PAS on almost all controllers is not variable, and is only on/off based on the assist level (if you pedal at all, you get full assist at that level).

I was considering replacing the display with a stand alone Cycle Analyst as a solution, but also considering installing a new display/controller, as I am not aware of another device like the cycle analyst that could allow for a "simulated" power-based PAS from a voltage based controller.

The CA will read the battery current being used, and base the power or current the assist is taking on that, and modulate it based on your settings and limits placed in the CA menus.

So as long as your controller has a throttle-only mode, where it doesn't require the PAS to operate or be connected, then you can connect the PAS sensor to the CA instead, and the CA throttle output to the controller, and the CA will operate the controller based on your pedal cadence. This is how I use it on the SB Cruiser heavy-cargo trike.


As for replacing your controller's display...you will still need that display to change assist levels on the controller (if the default power up level is not what you want), and to change settings in the controller, or see it's error codes. You also usually need it to turn the controller on, though this part can be worked around by hardwiring the controllers "KSI" wire to battery positive, or to a switch somewhere that does this.

You can put the display (or the CA) anywhere you want that's convenient for you to access it when necessary, including inside a saddlebag or whatever--neither one *has* to be on the handlebars. If you need to change modes or presets on the CA, you can get remote handlebar switches and/or knobs to do this (DIY or ones from ebikes.ca already designed to work with it).

I don't know if the available options in it are useful to you, but you may want to look at the Lishui and KT open source firmware threads. These are replacement firmwares for those brands of controller that provide more options and better input control than the OEM firmware does, and might have an option that lets you skip the CA to get the output you want.

Also, the KT controllers have versions with "torque simulation", which use the PAS assist levels to control battery current (torque) rather than motor voltage (speed)...but I think they still just are on/off at whatever assist level you choose--if they are variable based on cadence, that's good because it would be like what the CA can do.

In either case, I wanted to avoid cutting any OEM wiring if possible by adding an extension to the existing connector(s). So for the display/controller option, I wanted to avoid cutting the OEM wiring between the motor and controller, figuring it would be relatively easy to find a new female connector to wire an "adaptor" from the L1114 to a more common L1019 or other common type.

If you can find an L1114 extension cable it'd be easy to cut in half and use however you like, but I haven't found anything with that connector on it in a few minutes of googling. There probably are some that don't use that number in their pages, but you'd have to do an image search and look at the many results individually to see if they are the right one, or you'd just have to ask every seller of extension cables if they have one and hope for a useful reply. If you have to do the latter, I'd ask sales@ebikes.ca too, even though they don't list this in their stuff they may have some anyway in an experimental parts bin.

 

[Tetrault]

If your controller has a PAS that is even variable output (meaning the faster you pedal the more assist you get) then it's already in a class of it's own, as almost all PAS on almost all controllers is not variable, and is only on/off based on the assist level (if you pedal at all, you get full assist at that level).

Just on/off. Which is fine. It is the voltage-based that bothers me. I don't want the bike to do a full-amperage rush up to a certain speed every time I touch the pedals. Sure, it is kind of a fun novelty at times, but I much prefer the PAS that adds a set wattage when pedaling. By adjustable, I only meant that one could select the amount of assist with some kind of digital push-button switch, not that the assist changes based on cadence.

So as long as your controller has a throttle-only mode, where it doesn't require the PAS to operate or be connected, then you can connect the PAS sensor to the CA instead,

I think I like the CA option as the controller seems fine other than being voltage-based PAS. Fine as in, it runs plenty high enough amperage for my purposes without heating up and it is potted which is probably good for durability. But you make a very good point that I will test about whether the controller and throttle function normally without the PAS sensor attached. Thank you!

I haven't found anything with that connector on it in a few minutes of googling. There probably are some that don't use that number in their pages, but you'd have to do an image search and look at the many results individually to see if they are the right one

Thanks for looking. I will go further down this route if the stand alone cycle analysis doesn't come back in stock soon.

 

[E-HP]

I don't want the bike to do a full-amperage rush up to a certain speed every time I touch the pedals.

I think I like the CA option as the controller seems fine other than being voltage-based PAS.

Since the CA implements PAS via a throttle signal to the controller, it will technically be voltage/speed or current/power based, depending on the controller. But, because of the current feedback loop, it can be set to function in whatever throttle mode you prefer. So, even if you connect it to a voltage/speed based controller, you wouldn't have the rush up to speed, unless you wanted it.

 

[amberwolf]

Well, the main thing about hte CA's cadence-PAS controlled mode is that it generates a variable throttle output based on your actual cadence, so even if you use it (as I do) as just a speed control, no current limiting, etc, you *still* get fine control over the behavior of the system because to avoid rushing up to speed you just pedal more gently/slowly.

As long as you have setup your gearing appropriately for the cadences required vs the way you setup the CA to respond to the cadence and output however much throttle signal, it "just works".

If you use the current-control feedback loop stuff, you have to tune the loop factors experimentally, and sometimes that's a PITA.

(well, you have to tune the speed control feedback loop too, but I didn't really have to do much of that--I think the default values were nearly right to start with, if not already right--been so long since I had to futz with it I can't remember).



Regarding the SA version of the CA--if it isn't in stock, you can just use the "WP" version of the CA but use a standalone shunt bought separately (any shunt works, as long as it is appropriate for your current range, and it will be the right milliohm range for the CA--most of the bigger shunts are marked as mV/Amp, instead of milliohm, but you can do the math to calculate what that means in ohms to put it into the CA). You'd also need the mating connector(s) they use on that WP version, to wire up to whatever shunt and battery / speed sensor / etc you want to use.

Or the HC (high current) version of the CA is the same as the SA version, just has a big fat high current shunt instead of the small "ebike sized" one, and no PAS connector so you'd have to open it up and solder one on.

 

[E-HP]

If you use the current-control feedback loop stuff, you have to tune the loop factors experimentally, and sometimes that's a PITA.

My assumption is that the shunt provides the information necessary regarding current for the CA to perform most of it's functions, including emulating a current/power/torque based throttle, even if the controller is volt/speed based. Not tweaking any loop factors, just selecting Current, Power, or Speed under Throttle Mode. Besides the shunt, the battery voltage and hall input are all it needs to do its magic.

I think if an external shunt is used, then any version of cycle analyst can be connected to a controller, even without having to open up the controller.

 

[amberwolf]

My assumption is that the shunt provides the information necessary regarding current for the CA to perform most of it's functions, including emulating a current/power/torque based throttle, even if the controller is volt/speed based.

Yes.

I was pointing out that to get good cadence-pased-PAS control over a low-to-mid-power (or torque) system on a typical-to-heavy-weight bicycle, you don't *have* to use the current-control loop, or any form of current modulation; you can just use the variable cadence itself to do it.

If you have a high power/torque-to-weight system/bike, you might need the current or power control loop, or slower ramp-up in the throttle signal output, to get the best control over it at startup from a stop, depending on your pedal gearing and proportion of assist to pedal power you want.

But on ones with typical or low power/torque-to-weight ratios, you can have sufficient to great control over it without that, even if you don't gear it to get any useful human input to the system (like my SB Cruiser trike is; it's setup for gearing that lets me pedal it without assist at extremely low speeds (1mph-ish) for the very short distances (few hundred feet at a time right now) I could manage that these days.

Not tweaking any loop factors, just selecting Current, Power, or Speed under Throttle Mode. Besides the shunt, the battery voltage and hall input are all it needs to do its magic.

To just do the function, yes****, it already has default values in the loops that can work. But depending on the power/torque-to-weight ratio, or other things about the system, usage, or riding conditions, the loop tuning can be necessary to get it to do things the way you want them to without surging, lagging, etc. They're there because every system and usage is different, so you can fix problematic behaviors if they arise, or just fine tune the response.


(****though it doesn't need a hall input, it can use a separate speedo sensor like the SA version does; SB Cruiser is setup that way).

I think if an external shunt is used, then any version of cycle analyst can be connected to a controller, even without having to open up the controller.

Yes. The only connection *required* for a CA to modulate a controller is the throttle signal wire (out from CA, in to controller), and a common ground (battery negative). Everything else can be standalone/external.

AFAIK internally all the CA SA/HC/WP/etc versions are the same unless they have different firmware installed (which you can change), just with different sets of external connections for the various special situations they are supplied for.

The pads are available internally for all the signals even if that version doesn't have an external connector for it.

 

[Tetrault]

Wow, and I thought I had an okay handle on the CA from reading the grin website... Thanks for the input. It seems the "unofficial" guide has info on converting between different types of CA's. Good stuff.