Motorsport, Racing, The Future

Are you saying you're not familiar with electric go kart racing? It's been around maybe two decades. Not so fast growing because of the cost. And in the past not as popular as the same level of gas kart. But while they have indoor gas karts, wouldn't you prefer the electric there?

There's not that much attention to attract in go kart racing. If you want to alert the public, it will have to be on a higher level. Stuff you can put on television.

https://kart1.com/karts/

http://slickwillyskarts.com/

https://youtu.be/xMlM_PLi7zg?t=8o

kart_0004_01-storm-efd-min-2.png
 
Well, depending on just how good this frame is when it shows up, this could be one way to start a spec racing series. The 10kw option is obviously a waste of time, the company also offers 18kw and 45kw. Not sure the 18 would be enough even as an entry level, I might guess this is up to 1,500 pounds. The 45 might hold up. But for some hard core racing more likely you consider this a glider and think in the realm of 100kw.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-supply-F1-race-car-for_60586409663.html
 
Dauntless said:
Well, depending on just how good this frame is when it shows up, this could be one way to start a spec racing series. The 10kw option is obviously a waste of time, the company also offers 18kw and 45kw. Not sure the 18 would be enough even as an entry level, I might guess this is up to 1,500 pounds. The 45 might hold up. But for some hard core racing more likely you consider this a glider and think in the realm of 100kw.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-supply-F1-race-car-for_60586409663.html

Charlie Greenhaus has been working on a similar concept for a while. The Sports Car Club of America has a class called Spec Racers where everyone races basically the same car. Close competition and low cost. Charlie has modified a couple of Spec Racers to run electric.

https://evsr.net/
 
Dauntless said:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-supply-F1-race-car-for_60586409663.html

Hopefully the roll cage is sufficiently built with quality welds and good tubing selection.
People over 5'11" tall would have their head over and above the double bubble, as you can see the womans head is above with and without helmet. Clearer pics half way down the link.
 
ProEV said:
The Sports Car Club of America has a class called Spec Racers where everyone races basically the same car.

The SCCA has a lot spec series. This is with the Spec Racer Ford, I think it was the best opportunity to go electric quickly at the time. They used to have a category for open wheel where you could basically create a class to run regionally. Not finding mention of it now.

markz said:
Dauntless said:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-supply-F1-race-car-for_60586409663.html
Hopefully the roll cage is sufficiently built with quality welds and good tubing selection.

This is a knockoff of the Ariel Atom, which is a trackday car. The higher rollbar is available for the Atom, etc. With anything Chinese, you ask about the quality. I might expect they at least try to make the frame an acceptable replacement, so it's bound to be the right spec.

If you see pictures of old race cars, the roll bar at the drivers' head is never high enough.
554679332_d6bae945a5_z.jpg
 
How on earth is that roll bar suppose to help save you when the vehicle flips over, thats crazy man. The roll bar needs to be 6 inches higher.
 
Dauntless said:
The SCCA has a lot spec series. This is with the Spec Racer Ford,...

This specific type of car started as Spec Racer Renault. With an engine swap they became Spec Racer Ford. I think they are up to Spec Racer Ford Gen 3 by now.

Dauntless said:
They used to have a category for open wheel where you could basically create a class to run regionally. Not finding mention of it now.

The regional class is called Formula S. Basically any Formula car that does not fit in other classes.

We ran the ProEV Electric Imp, our 400 volt 700 amp two motor Subaru Impreza race car in the regional class Super Production Under 2 liter (SPU). A class for production based cars that did not fit into any other class. I loved that we were under 2 liter since our engine displacement was zero.

Info here: www.ProEV.com

Dauntless said:
This is a knockoff of the Ariel Atom, which is a trackday car.

At some point, someone modified an Ariel Atom as an electric car. No idea what happened with it.
 
There's so many racing circuits out there. Its an expensive hobby, but as long as the track has alternating turns then thats ok. Otherwise nascar is highlites reel only pls and ty.
 
I totally missed your name being ProEV might mean you were with them. I sorta knew this was going on, but obviously the media isn't crowding around you guys so I can't learn much. I take it there's still no real electric class? I've been known to go to Fontana, but largely the CalClub has moved away from me.

Formula S, dang, so we take the Van Dieman's from the Formula Enterprise and create enough of them. . . .

I like NASCAR just fine, they DO have some road courses. Indycars ran a lot of road courses as well as on dirt tracks with a separate car from pavement until in 1971 the dirt cars were made a separate series and the road courses vanished. Only for a little while, but people stopped thinking of Indycars road racing.

The reason that Americans took up oval racing was because so much of the early racing happened at horse tracks, including the county fairs where they'd have horse races. The horses turned left, so the cars did too. Europe was more into the steeple chase. Stock cars grew up in the south; legendarily the moonshine runners had cars to outrun the county sheriff, modified V8's vs. economical little 4 cylinders. And they'd get together to race without a track, so they'd be on dirt. In Daytona they raced literally in the sand on the beach before the track was built.

The next weekend is it? They piled dirt at Bristol and guess what they're racing on. The regular dirt tracks just aren't a big enough facility. https://www.nascar.com/gallery/bristol-motor-speedways-dirt-transformation-in-photos/

markz said:
How on earth is that roll bar suppose to help save you when the vehicle flips over, thats crazy man. The roll bar needs to be 6 inches higher.

The problem was it never much did. By the time I was getting to go to the club racing as a kid you were seeing it higher, the production convertibles had a whole square above both seats and plenty of room. Note the Formula F's don't make it all that much higher.

timkautz21.jpg
 
Classification is a serious issue with EV motorsports. Everything today is engine related, how much power it can make but EV is principally about capacity, how much power it can carry. Our classifications are totally bass ackward for that. Some endurance classes have limitations for capacity, fuel stops but with EV it's the most important aspect, only short duration classes like drag racing or short hillclimbs can exploit the full power potential.
 
That last picture has a higher roll bar then the 2nd last pic. Eyeballing it, 3" higher then the helmet in the last pic, 1/2" lower then the helmet in the 2nd last pic. Insurers for races today wouldn't allow the 2nd last pic to fly.

If you see pictures of old race cars, the roll bar at the drivers' head is never high enough.
That 2nd last pic is literally from the 70's by the helmet style.
That helmet looks like something Frankie from Americans Pickers would pay $20 for to sell in his store.
 
Well, it says Dan Gurney right on it, he retired in 1970 but the only GP's he ran that year were with McLaren when Bruce Mac first died. That's obviously the GP version of the Len Terry Eagle, last time Gurney raced one of those was 1968. He's got the full face helmet, the FIRST time he (Or anyone else) raced with one of those was 1968, so I'd say it was the German GP, 1968, that date in history. If not, it would be weeks later in the Italian GP. After that, the Anglo American Racers crumbled and he finished the season driving for McLaren, in Gulf Western orange so it's not one of those.

Yes, the dream of a Grand Prix championship died. Probably prompting his retirement less than 2 years (4 Indycar and 2 CanAm wins) later. After which he went out and won the first Cannonball Baker.
 
They have to be careful developing a class for EVs. They do not adapt well to existing ICE series formats.
The Formula E is probably the best “Showcase” for demonstrating Electric racing to the public. But even there the race length and the course layout is contrived to suit EV limitations. Races are short, and the tracks are normally laid out with short straights. ( to keep the energy sapping top speeds down), and the corners are slow and numerous to maximise regen oportunities.
But there is a Electric Touring car series (ETCR) starting in europe this year, which could be interesting with a lot od freedom in the rules..
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/01/this-electric-touring-car-demo-at-daytona-is-a-sign-of-things-to-come/
But none of these is a “grass roots” option to get more folks into Electric racing. ..that has to be something like a Kart series.
 
Competitive EMTB would be great. Just run a spec battery/BMS and let the competitors decide how/when they want to use it, including with a throttle. Add in some obstacles that a regular bike couldn't climb.

Would eliminate the ridiculous "250w" limit which all the manufacturers are cheating anyway and would allow DIY builds to push the limits. Only rule you can't ditch the battery.
 
EMTB will happen for sure..probably already is , somewhere ??
But it is a “niche” sport for athletic / physical competitors,..so not realla “Motorsport”
And it sure wont be cheap...have you seen the price of a competitive MTB, .. $10-15 _ !....never mind a EMTB !
 
Yes competitive EMTB is already happening under a few organizations. But they are doing it with very silly rules which don't seem to limit battery size, just bike output to a "nominal" 250w.
 
250W is just to bad, should be 1kw or 1.5kw then a class for 3kw. :twisted:

Grantmac said:
Yes competitive EMTB is already happening under a few organizations. But they are doing it with very silly rules which don't seem to limit battery size, just bike output to a "nominal" 250w.
 
My proposal is that motor output isn't limited at all, battery size is.
Want to use 10kw for 5 minutes then pedal the next hour? Go for it. You just aren't allowed to drop the battery.
 
Hillhater said:
But none of these is a “grass roots” option to get more folks into Electric racing. ..that has to be something like a Kart series.

If you are lucky enough to be near a K1 speed location (https://www.k1speed.com/), that is good place to do electric karting.

Karting is about improving as a driver and a racer (and having fun). The K1 karts are always in constant use and you cannot set them up to your own preference but it is fun to see how quickly you can identify the kart you are driving limitation, and finding a way to work around it. Bad brakes, worn front tires, worn rear tires, weird toe setting (from repeated crashes :D ), it is all a challenge.

They have a race series as well but it is still a little of a crap shoot as to what kart you get.

Karting is designed to be limited in development, to allow driving to matter more than equipment.

If you want to race in a "grass roots" series that allows you to develop and improve your vehicle, then you should consider Electrathon. It is pretty cheap especially compared to most racing. It is fun. There is lots of room for developing better electric vehicles.

There is no limit on power but strict limits on energy. Your battery pack cannot be rated by the manufacturer for over 1 kWhr. We (ProEV) are running a lithium pack (~$325 with shipping).

An electric bike motor or large RC motor and controller works well. We run a motor/controller combo that gives us around 4 kW peak when we need it.

A new kit car will cost you but is a quick way to get running (http://www.blueskydsn.com/products.html). Many build their own. Here is a step by step by a master builder: http://electrathonfl.homestead.com/Jimsbuildseries.html . He claims he has seen cars built for as cheap as $500.

The vehicles are small enough that they can fit in the back of a pick up or on a cheap trailer (~$450) behind a Prius. No need for a big team. I often just run myself but a second set of hands can be useful.

The two hot spots for Electrathon are the West coast of Florida (Tampa) and the West Coast (California and Oregon). Georgia and Alabama have been growing too. Most of the organizers are High School STEM programs who have access to parking lots and running tracks. The students learn the basics of electricity and engineering as well as working as a team. The Open teams bring in more sophisticated vehicles and everyone gains.

There are plenty of ways to get more sophisticated without spending a lot of money. Using an Ardunio and a GPS sensor, a Data Acquisition System that does Amps, Volts, Watt-hours, lap times can be built for around $75.

The hour long races give lots of seat time. The low rolling resistance tires and high torque motors make driving fun.

What Electrathon needs is more teams and more races. We are all racing very basic vehicles so there is lots to explore in making better EVs.
 
Electrathon is already there, people are not swarming. K1 has been around for decades, hasn't inspired anyone.

An electric series that used the Deltawing would have really captured the imagination. People would have stopped thinking of electric gokarts as crappy versions of gas gokarts and instead as stepping stones. Without that, these other things are never going to be terribly important to people.
 
DTRA Gets Electrified :
"UK and European race promoters, Dirt Track Riders Association, are launching an electric bike class with a two-round championship for 2021.. If your bike is electric you are welcome to join in. Depending on the number of entries we will then work on some power-based classes..."

https://www.sideburnmagazine.com/post/dtra-gets-electrified
 
Grantmac said:
My proposal is that motor output isn't limited at all, battery size is.
Want to use 10kw for 5 minutes then pedal the next hour? Go for it. You just aren't allowed to drop the battery.
+1, motorsports help advance technology but limiting output power does almost nothing for EV tech and is extremely difficult to enforce. Something that hits max efficiency at 250w could maybe produce 2kw peak and as competition heats up folks will be certain to take advantage of that, limited power output classes could only really work as one-controller classes with the organisers holding the controllers between events.

Power storage capacity is far easier to enforce and ways of enforcing it put tech development in exactly the right place, the key weakness of EV's compared to ICE. Actual capacity doesn't need to be measured, battery weight or volume focuses development on maximising power density and limiting the number of packs that can be used in a season prevents that development focusing on throwaway tech.
 
I'm less concerned with innovation and more concerned with reasonably priced, fair grassroots motorsport.
A big enemy of EVs is high speed. Focusing on competition that involves mostly technical or handling aspects is the way to go. Also requires much less expensive facilities.
 
shopping


I'm less concerned with some reasoned approach and more concerned with screaming fans. It won't do you any good if people aren't enthusiastic about it.

They might watch the prerace show with the motorized ice chest race. They might do what those two guys I saw earlier obviously did and upgrade the 250w to maybe 1000w. (They were more in a hurry than actually racing.)

But it don't mean a thing if you ain't got that scream. Do wat do wat do wat Do wat do wat do wat.

So we really need to stick to what would be popular.

https://www.saferwholesale.com/Cruzin-Cooler-250-Watt-Scooter-Cooler-Wagon-Traile-p/czc-cruzin-cooler-cz-hb.htm?vfsku=CZC.Cruzin.Cooler.CZ.HB&Click=35179

[youtube]oJyuEe7VeMk[/youtube]
 
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