Motorsport, Racing, The Future

[ProEV]

Power storage capacity is far easier to enforce and ways of enforcing it put tech development in exactly the right place, the key weakness of EV's compared to ICE. Actual capacity doesn't need to be measured, battery weight or volume focuses development on maximising power density and limiting the number of packs that can be used in a season prevents that development focusing on throwaway tech.

I agree energy limits are better than power limits, though I think the idea of actually tracking energy used rather than setting a weight or volume has advantages. If the vehicles are limited to a specific amount of energy, finding a lighter battery will still give a weight advantage but not as big an advantage as having extra energy. Teams will also have the option of running a slightly higher capacity pack and not risk damaging the pack by running it to empty (and beyond).

I think it would also improve the show if this information was accessible to everyone. Formula E shows 'Energy Remaining' only a couple of times during a race. It should be standard information whenever a car is on screen. It would be exciting to watch as the car behind builds up an energy advantage while drafting and then tries to use extra power to make the pass.

 

[Grantmac]

I'm not talking about watching, I'm talking about DOING. Although I watch completely acoustic MTB racing and I assure you it's not boring.
Top tier motorsport will always be exciting regardless of power source and money will ensure access to facilities.

The grassroots side is far different. You HAVE to find ways to limit the ability to buy a race to keep costs down or else you are back at karting with a $20k/year engine budget.
Speed is less important than close racing which can be participated in by people of average income.
Noise is the #1 reason that tracks and other motorsport areas (ORVs) get shut down. Environmental concerns is the 2nd. I see EVs as being able to combat both of those problems.

 

[Dauntless]

Top tier motorsport will always be exciting regardless of power source and money will ensure access to facilities.

The grassroots side is far different. You HAVE to find ways to limit the ability to buy a race to keep costs down or else you are back at karting with a $20k/year engine budget.

Top tier is not always exciting, even when it is historically that's definitely been no guarantee of surviving. There has been some great shows that collapsed from lack of interest. Meanwhile, how often has the Super Bowl been a good game?

Limiting the ability to buy a race is both limited and also not guaranteed to be popular. An old racing series in the United States and Canada called the Canadian American Challenge Cup (CanAm) demonstrates. Running late in the year at the same time as a near identical series earlier in the year called first the USAC Road Racing Championship then the United States Road Racing Championship which formerly had people such as Ken Miles, Jim Hall, Roger Penske, etc. Then they were gone.

So the CanAm saw the emergence of Bruce McLaren and his cars, the "Bruce and Denny (F1 Champion Hume) Show," a parade more than close racing. And the fans flocked to it. The emergent new driver in the USRRC was the unknown Mark Donohue against other unknowns who at least won races. But the USRRC ended and the CanAm grew, until Team McLaren no longer dominated it. Andthey walked away. Then there was no longer money to ensure access to facilities.

Club racing as grew up with involved the club "Volunteering" at the tracks for the pro races, so the organizations such as the Cal Club in southern California got the track for club racing in return. I understood that to be a nationwide model. I would assume it was still the same today.

There is more to the interest factor than close racing. If you were right the Tour de France would have died in recent years.

 

[Hillhater]

The grassroots side is far different. You HAVE to find ways to limit the ability to buy a race to keep costs down or else you are back at karting with a $20k/year engine budget.
Speed is less important than close racing which can be participated in by people of average income.

Every form of sport has its different levels.. usually at the top level there is a professional “money” class like F1 ..( and the Tour De France !)
But they also all have amateur. “Starter” or cheap “Controlled” Class.
Karting has many of those, right down to a controlled $100 “Clone” engine class, and even classes with those cheap “pool” engines held by the organising club, and allocated to drivers on a “lottery” type system.
Even F1 and “indycar” are slowly becoming “pool” motor classes with common ,cost restricted engine supplies.
There are many ways to control both the cost and speeds of motorsport classes

 

[markz]

I rarely watch vehicle races fully, only highlites.
I never heard that term before, pool engines, pool motor classes. T
Lottery type system where they win a motor
Cheap "pool" engines

even classes with those cheap “pool” engines held by the organising club, and allocated to drivers on a “lottery” type system.
Even F1 and “indycar” are slowly becoming “pool” motor classes with common ,cost restricted engine supplies.
There are many ways to control both the cost and speeds of motorsport classes

 

[Hillhater]

NO...
.. by lottery i do not mean they win a motor, ..
..i mean everyone buys an identical stock standard motor (typically a “Clone” of the Briggs 6 hp industrial, costing about $100 ).. then they hand it over to the club “pool” of motors where it is “sealed” and numbered.
Then Before racing, the drivers draw numbers from a lottery box to be allocated an engine from the “pool”... so it is a random allocation of motors which they fit to their kart...and return them at the end of the day
So it prevents the temptation to modify and cheat with tuned motors.

 

[Grantmac]

I've heard of sealed and spec engines but never pooled, interesting concept. Might work with complete EV drive systems at least for karting.

In terms of top tier I'd actually like to see fewer restrictions. Just limit total energy and let them do everything else how they want. I enjoy that level of racing simply because its about innovation.

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm looking at the lowest hobby level of motorsport.

 

[Dauntless]

Well, a look at the kind of racing he's talking about with the spec engines. The bigger one uses at least a big motorcycle engine. Yamaha XJ1250, FJ1200 (both air-cooled), or starting in 2018, FZ09 (water-cooled) engine. The smaller one is a glorified go kart.

But either one would make an easy transition to electric.

https://store.uslegendcars.com/site/index.cfm

 

[Dauntless]

Here's another called Minicup. The first is on a very flexible track, it's an old parking lot. But they used to do a good job going between oval and road racing, it had a serious feel to it, well run for a place called "The Baby Track." The second you see a guy next to his car, gives an idea of the size. This is the kind of car you see on the 'Bull Ring' track in the infield or the parking lot of a bigger track.

A simple yet full fledged racecar you can yank the engine and put in the electric. http://minicup.com/

[youtube]XYQmyNcflzY[/youtube]

[youtube]s9eQ8LZffNw[/youtube]

This other one is uncommon, I hear they're making a comeback this year, but the videos show the cars some and give a BUSINESS PLAN. Same thing, won't be hard to convert. http://www.arenaracingusa.com/

[youtube]WWylDa5JhT0[/youtube]

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[markz]

Yeah they look different with a person standing beside them.

 

[Hillhater]

Well, that is certainly not what i was refering to !
I was refering to a Kart class with engines that cost $100 brand new ! .. 6.5 hp 200 cc 4 stroke generator type motors.
Like these.
[youtube]RygNj8w8p2g[/youtube]

 

[Dauntless]

More than a hundred dollars even for the cheap knockoffs but yeah, way cheap. It'll cost more for what? A 5kw? Except we know those 200cc come up a little short on the promises, maybe a 4kw would work out. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001793578470.html

Oh, there'll be a controller, etc. it's really going to bump the cost over the cheap gokarts.

So we just have to think bigger.

How about as big as;

BATTMOBILE RACING!

[youtube]EqB96KNK9r8[/youtube]

 

[ProEV]

I'm less concerned with innovation and more concerned with reasonably priced, fair grassroots motorsport.
A big enemy of EVs is high speed. Focusing on competition that involves mostly technical or handling aspects is the way to go. Also requires much less expensive facilities.

I hope you will try Electrathon. It meets all your criteria.

Dauntless pointed out correctly that Electrathon has been around for a while and has not grown very much. The standard set up is two Optima batteries. It is difficult to get more than 700 Whrs from the 70 lbs of batteries. It takes a great deal of skill to make this set up fast.

I think for many High School team organizers, this is a feature, not a bug. The students are learning the basics of engineering, development, electricity but also teamwork and group effort. The race vehicle does not have to go fast to teach these lessons.

The big change that makes Electrathon interesting for the rest of us is lithium. Batteries are available and now cheaper than good lead acid. It is fairly easy to build a pack that will give 900+ Whrs reliable race after race with a <15 lbs pack. For your average 300 lbs vehicle with driver (driver must be ballasted to 180 lbs), the vehicle is losing 15% in weight and increasing energy by around 25%. Even an unskilled team, can have a fast fun car.

BTW the most exciting 'televised' EV racing series I have seen is called Light Speed on Youtube. It is a series of short (20-30 minute) professional filmed video about the Solar Race across Australia. It is a bit like the 'Drive To Survive' show that covers Formula 1. There is lots of action including spin outs, roll overs, cars burning to the ground, but they also do a masterful job of showing the people, explaining the technology, and the strategies. This is high dollar racing, not grassroots unfortunately. Here is a link to the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwwlHMLRF-I

 

[Grantmac]

If electrathon was available where I am I'd definitely be interested in it, hits all the criteria. Although I'd probably have to cut down some bodyweight

120# is pretty darn light for something with full rollover protection.