Nazca Pioneer solar recumbent build

[amberwolf]

FWIW, if the fork's steerer is the same ID all the way thru the crown, and open at the crown bottom, you could install the starnut, preload everythign, tighten it all up, then remove the cap, push the starnut all the way down thru the steerer and out the bottom, and then install whatever you need to in / on the steerer.

But if you ever needed to adjust anything or whateve,r you'd have to reinstall the starnut and whatnot to get all the preloading done again. :/

So the PS nut above is easier to use.

 

[k2orbust]

Haha the stem problem solved itself! The quill steerer flares out to 1 1/8" above the headset, so the stem fits right on the new fork and life is good.

 

[marka-ee]

I have a Nazca Pioneer as well ! It has a 9C DD hub motor on the back. I use a bunch of 10s5p packs I got a deal on, and they are strapped on in various places at the moment. I up the voltage to 53 with a DCDC converter. I want to go to 60 volts after I mod my 500 watt controller some more.
I have a concern: The headset on these bikes has the bearings very close together. This puts a lot of strain on that area when hitting bumps and hard braking. I'm worried that something will crack. I am running the Nazca fork now with 2.2 wide tires, I would like to get a suspension fork but I don't like standard suspension forks much because of the sticktion effect making them somewhat ineffective on smaller road 'noise' ( bumps ) . I want an ultra plush ride for this magic carpet . Anyhow, I'm glad I found this thread.

 

[k2orbust]

Hi marka-ee! Yes, Nazca says that increasing the head tube length is one of the changes they made with the Gaucho. I would have got a Gaucho for the better tire clearance but I was too slow after they announced they were halting production.

I'm switching headsets for the Manitou fork this weekend, and will be running 55 mm Schwalbe Pick-up tires. I figure suspension will be easier on the frame than no suspension, even if it's not perfect. They say fat tires give you that magic carpet ride, but you're not going to fit one in the back even at 24 inches...

Do you run a fender in the rear? Looks like space will be tight between the tire and the lower suspension mount.

 

[marka-ee]

No fender in the rear for me. I run a fairly fat 26 tire back there as well, and have maybe 4mm clearance left. Fat tires do help the ride quality. Now the odd thing : The rear brake posts seem to be welded in the wrong position on my bike. I can't run rim brakes because the pads land in the wrong place and are not within adjustment range either. My Pioneer is not fitted with disk brake mount points on the rear swingarm either. I was running the bike with a front 180mm disk only for the summer, but I need to find a solution for when it's wet. I think I can make a caliper mounting plate of some kind to fix this.

 

[Peterfr12]

Since I have a Pioneer frame I can add some comments:
You can see the picture of the Pioneer frame : there are two holes on the back of the swing arm to accommodate a V brake setup. Initially I was going to go for disk brake but there was not enough clearance for the calliper. I guess the Pioneer frame is standard, so I don’t understand the issues you had Marka-ee. However, one of the brake pads was not parallel to the rim of the wheel. He did not bother me. You have two extra holes for the kickstand too.




My rear wheel was a 26 inch one. The tyre I used was a Schwalbe marathon GT365 2 inch wide. I can fit a fender/mudguard without any issue as you can see on the pictures on the first page of this topic. They are 3 holes on the frame to hold it : 2 on the side of the swing arm and one on the back of the swing arm.


Rear fender is very useful to protect the rear suspension from water or mud.

I don’t think you need fatbike tyre for the Pioneer. I have done over 7000 km with the Pioneer on tarmac at 35 mph and it is a flying carpet. I have never had any pain on my back or neck.

If you want to fit tyre wider than 2 inches, you need to lengthen your frame. This is what I have done for my next build. And by lengthening the frame, I solved the issue of the rear brake. I have now enough room to fit a calliper. However I will use regen to stop the bike.


Cheers,
Peterfr12

 

[marka-ee]

I wish my bike was that clean !
Could you do me a favour, and measure the distance from the v brake bolt hole ( at center of hole ) to the drop out center, where the axel would be ? I still suspect something off on my swing arm. Mine has no disk mount place, but I think I can try to mount a plate there with the mount holes.

Re: the solar project, I would pay attention to the forces caused by vibration. Allow some form of shock absorption. Did you measure the solar panels output ? Usually I get about 60% out of panels. Heat and alignment probably. My bike uses about 450 to 500 watts to go 27 mph. I've modded my controller to output about 700 watts recently, but have yet to test that out because my DCDC converter cuts back from the load. I think it may add a couple of mph. Physics says it takes 8 times the energy to go twice as fast, I think.
When riding and not peddling, I really wonder what air resistance my feet are causing. They are nicely perpendicular to the air flow, like two doors. Something else to consider is if god forbid you take a spill what happens to all the stuff attached to the bike? Batteries are heavy. Will it detach ? I would make the solar setup be break-away on purpose to help save them.

 

[neptronix]

You're building my dream recumbent. Following.

 

[k2orbust]

@neptronix, it's been my dream for several years as well! The on-bike solar charging concept is what spurred my to finally jump in.

@marka-ee, sounds like you have an older frame that predates disc brakes. I wonder if it was designed with some specific alternate brake type in mind? On my frame it's about 258 mm from the brake posts to the rear dropout. I have the solar panels but I haven't actually tested them yet. Each is rated 150 W but we know that means at noon on the equator... Solar output will definitely be a power-limiting factor in an off the grid touring scenario.

@peterfr12, did you figure out what this rubber disk was for on the rear fender mount? I can't tell if it's supposed to go inside or outside the fender, or be removed entirely.


I have enough parts now I might actually have to get my hands greasy instead of just spending money!

GMAC motor



Ryde Andra 40 rims, allegedly bombproof. I'm going to try lacing my own wheels because I'm a glutton for p̶u̶n̶i̶s̶h̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ learning


Schwalbe Pick-up tires, allegedly puncture resistant and smooth-ish rolling. TBD how much clearance to the fender mount.


SLX two-pot hydraulic brakes, XT 1x12 shifter


SunRace 11-51 Hyperglide cassette. Maybe in ten years hub motor mfrs will start supporting Micro Spline freehubs :lol:


180 mm rotors


The suspension fork raises the bottom bracket by a few inches, which will have a big effect on riding geometry. We'll see if I'm tall enough at 6 foot 1 to start and stop with confidence. (If not, a spacer can be added inside the air spring to reduce travel from 100 mm to 80 mm. Sounds like a pain tho.)


Still to order:

• Sapim Strong spokes, nipples, cheapie spoke tension meter
• Pedals
• Three 12 speed chains
• Unknown qty of stem spacers
• Handlebar grips
• Extra long hydraulic line for rear brake
• Shifter housing

 

[amberwolf]

@peterfr12, did you figure out what this rubber disk was for on the rear fender mount? I can't tell if it's supposed to go inside or outside the fender, or be removed entirely.
Rear fender spacer.jpg

It's probably to keep the fender from rattling / wiggling, if that's the only mounting point it has.

 

[marka-ee]

I have a Continental 'Country Plus' 26 x 1.9 on the back. It gives 4mm clearance between the tire and the bolt hole where you see that rubber washer. That's with no bolt in there at all. I put a thick vinyl textile cloth panel along the bottom side of the rack to act as a fender. My electronics are between the seat and frame, so I try to keep that dry. My rear brake post seems to be about 9mm further from the axel, so I guess they altered that position ( better ) in newer bikes. You will find that with the short head tube bearing spacing that the front brake will want to shudder on some braking conditions. I have a 180mm disk on the front as well. I'm going to try to clean and hone the disk to help, but once it starts doing it, I think it wears to make it worse and worse.

 

[neptronix]

PS, i would have recommended a 24 inch front suspension fork so that the geometry would be even. They exist and i believe sun tour makes a decent one. Good luck modifying the manitou.

 

[Peterfr12]

Hi all,

On the picture the rear wheel, you can notice that the wheel was not centred; I fixed it. I had to remove the thick rubber washer to accommodate the fender. Otherwise, there is not enough room to fit a fender. I think I swapped the screw with a flat head too to give more room. The issue you don’t want the fender to wobble when you go over bumps, pothole, etc. the tyre will then touch the fender.

K2orbust, your rear tire is 2.15 inch wide! It will be tricky to fit a fender. I exchanged a lot of emails with Nazca owners in 2017 and they told me 2 inch is the maximum width for a tyre.

I ordered 3 race face headset spacer kits from chain reaction cycle: there are 9 of them, 4 times 20 mm spacer, 4 times 10 mm spacer and a 2 mm spacer.
Race Face Headset Spacer Kit - Alloy | Chain Reaction Cycles



K2orbust, I have now a similar setup with a Manitou circus fork and a 19-inch motorbike front wheel with a 2.25 width tyre so equals to a 2.25*2+19= 23.5 inch height so ~ 2 inches less than 26. I am 6 foot tall and I have absolutely no issue to start and stop. I have done few tests. My bike is not yet finished but ridable. Instead of using a 26 inch wheel, if you are worried, you can use a 24 inch wheel or a 19 inch moped ones.


I have a 210 mm front disk now. Honestly with a motor you don’t need so many gears! I just used a 56t 11t and that is it. I invested in a particularly good freewheel as I kept breaking them (made in USA from white industry). I have a 80t ring combined with a 16 teeth freewheel.

Marka-ee, I don’t have my bike with me now as I moved back to France. It is in a storage box for few more weeks so I cannot provide any measurements. However, I am aware from a French website on recumbent that there were some initial issues with the brake front cable and the Pioneer frame, particularly when using the small ring: it seems the chain was rubbing the brake cable. I never had this issue, but I never used the small ring on my setup.

cheers,
Peterfr12

 

[marka-ee]

I actually changed my front cranks to 150mm ones. The stock170mm ones were too big for an electric bike in my opinion. I don't pedal too much so most of the time the pedals are basically foot rests .
With that battery box under the main tube, are you concerned about the aerodynamics at all? My feet sticking up even bug me, I see them as big paddles in the air, like when you hold your hand out of a car window. I don't know if there is some kind of 'bullet' fairing thing I could rig up there, like a missile nose cone, to make it cut through the air better. Fun fact: It takes more power to get a bicycle to go 100km/hr than a modern car !

 

[Peterfr12]

I always have to peddle by law in UK or France to propel the bike otherwise it is illegal. If I used the peddles as a foot rest at 35 mph I guess I will have some issues with the police and car drivers will get annoyed. And I enjoy cycling as I was a keen cyclist for the last 30 years. Therefore, I need a large ring to be able to peddle at 35 mph easily. 170 mm crank is fine for me and it offers a good leverage to drive the massive crank unpowered. I can start the bike itself with an 80t ring 16t cog with the motor off.
I add a smaller box on the side on my 2nd setup and I was also often carrying two large 25L Ortlieb paniers on the side rack when I was doing my shopping or commuting. It did not affect the performance of the bike. I used also these two paniers on my 1st diamond frame setup.


My goal is to add a shell around the bike to protect my legs from bad weather and improve the aerodynamism of the bike. I found these pictures on a Ukrainian website dedicated to ‘velomobile’ and ‘recumbent’. I will purchase the trunk later as it is in production. The handlebar I bought is not the one from Nazca but a large one 75 cm wide found on a German website. I feel I have a Harley Davidson!






And I found a French guy who explained how he build his own shell, steps by steps with illustration. I am not sure I have the skill to do it, but I was looking for a missile cone online to purchase and lengthening it or something to be done by 3D printing.
http://2roueselectriques.e-monsite.com/pages/velo-couche/carenage-avant-pour-velo-couche.html
My goal will be to cover the shell with a flexible solar panel.



Cheers,
Peterfr12

 

[k2orbust]

K2orbust, your rear tire is 2.15 inch wide! It will be tricky to fit a fender. I exchanged a lot of emails with Nazca owners in 2017 and they told me 2 inch is the maximum width for a tyre.

...

I have a 210 mm front disk now. Honestly with a motor you don’t need so many gears! I just used a 56t 11t and that is it. I invested in a particularly good freewheel as I kept breaking them (made in USA from white industry). I have a 80t ring combined with a 16 teeth freewheel.

Yes, I know I am pushing it with the 55 mm tire width! If it doesn't fit, I bet the bike shop will let me exchange it for something smaller. Wow that is a big chainring!

 

[marka-ee]

Interesting fairings. Maybe saw off the front of a kayak and use that ?
I was thinking of something smaller, that just covers the front pedal/crank/chain wheel area but I don't know if it's really worth it then.
There are fabrication techniques like 'drape moulding' that could be used to make some fairings out of plexiglass. Looks easier than doing the fibreglass layup and it would be transparent as well.
My dream would be more of a velomobile that really slips through the air but those are absolutely not practical on the areas that I ride.

 

[Peterfr12]

Hi,

The goal for the fearing is to give me protection against rain but also flying bugs. At 45 mph, if you hit a hornet or a wasp onto your leg it is painful. I found a company that sold transparent fairing made of Lexan in USA and other goodies. It is expensive between 300-700 US dollars if you want the full protection.
https://t-cycle.com/
they have fairing for trike but also recumbent with 2 wheels:
https://t-cycle.com/collections/windwrap-fairings/products/wintr-fairing-kit


About velomobile, I look at a quattro velo, my dream bike. I want to finish and test my latest build and then see if I need to spend cash on a velomobile. With 2 wheels you can do off-road, with a velomobile you are restricted to road and in city you are as slow as a car since you cannot use bike path due to their size and you cannot pass car easily.

 

[k2orbust]

Front wheel is built! Back wheel is...ordered the wrong spoke length I've got all parts except the battery now, so plenty to do while waiting for the re-order to arrive...

 

[thundercamel]

Hey man, just wanted to say that I'm a fan of your project! I have a similar recumbent that came with rear suspension only, and I also swapped to a front suspension fork. That added height made my pedals/bottom bracket high as it is, and I'm using just a 20" front wheel! I will stay tuned

 

[k2orbust]

All the wheels are built! And...there's more problems. The 51 tooth sprocket is so big it bonks the spokes before the cassette can bottom on the freehub :'( Learn from my mistakes, beware!




The only solution I can see is to unlace all the drive-side spokes and then relace from the outside in. This will weaken the wheel somewhat, but I stubbornly still desire a 1x12 drivetrain. Lots of good wheelbuilding practice

The Schwalbe Pick-Up (55-559 size) tire is pushing it to fit into the rear fork of the Pioneer frame, with less than a centimeter of clearance to the fender mount and the rear shock. I still think a flathead screw and selective mutilation will permit mounting a rear fender.




The EM3EV battery has landed on American shores, and could be delivered as soon as Tuesday. That would be 22 days transit time.

 

[Peterfr12]

Hi k2orbust,

instead of rebuilding the wheel, is it possible to add a large thick washer to shift the all cassette outside? I had a similar issue with the chain touching the rear 3 inch wide tyre. I am using a white industry freewheel - not a cassette - and shifted by 5 mm by inserting a £ 3washer. there is still enough thread to lock the freewheel but I dont know if this option is valid for a cassette.

For your fender, you need to tight it well and use a nord-lock washer so the flat bolt cannot get loose due to the numerous vibrations generated by riding your bike. Good luck.

Cheers,
Peterfr12

 

[marka-ee]

My rear shifter cable broke a while ago but it doesn't matter, the chain never needs to leave the small sproket back there

 

[Peterfr12]

Hi Marka-ee

Indeed once you have 1500W or more you don't need any derailleur! One gear is enough and it simplifies the handlebar. i dont understand why ebikers build bike with so many gears (with a 250W right but not for a 1500W model).

I love peddling so I used initially a massive gearing 56t 11t (ratio of ~5) and then now a 80t 16t (same ratio). You can really exercise and build muscle/endurance/lost fat and cycle at 35 mph easily. I can start the bike on flat even with the motor off but you have to push really hard.

The issue I had I was pushing so hard that I broke 3 Chinese 6 speed freewheel from em3ev. I realised I don't need 6 speed freewheel since I never shifted even when riding 10% gradient. I had a triple ring but only used the largest one. More watt is the solution. Tesla car is a one gear speed car! Therefore I looked for a really good strong quality freewheel: the ENO freewheel from white industry was the answer (with a 36 point engagement system).

 

[k2orbust]

I don't doubt you guys that one gear is enough with a powerful motor, but I have two extra scenarios in mind:

• If I get the solar panels running for off-the-grid touring, watt-hours per day become quite limited. After a few cloudy days one might not get much help from the motor at all!
• On long steep grades I may have to slow down and help to prevent overheating. The test case I analyzed was something like a 1000 foot climb at 10% grade, at 15 mph.