Need Help Problem Solving

[chelsealuttrall]

I'm a beginner when it comes to playing with electricity--but I like it a lot. I'm attempting to convert an old moto to electric and have been working on it for a while. I've been stuck for the last year (obviously, I don't work on it very often), but I'm tired of not knowing what to do to get past this road block.

I have a QS Motor (16" Hub Motor Brushless Non Gear 72V 6kW), Kelly Controller (Kelly KLS-8080H), and AegisBattery (72V 20Ah Lithium Battery with Charger). I have a Tyco Contactor (Tyco 100 Amp 12V Relay / Contactor / Solenoid LEV100 KILOVAC).

Previously, I had it wired correctly (I thought...but obviously not), and I turned it on. The first time I turned it on, the contactor "clicked" and the voltage screen on the throttle was on. But, then, it slowly (like within a minute or two) burned my fuse and stopped working. After that, I kept trying and I blew a fuse instantly every time when I turned the key. I reworked the wiring again, thinking that I just had it wired incorrectly....

Since then, though, I can't get any current past my contactor. My battery is working fine. And current is getting to my contactor. But, it's not doing anything...whether I turn keys or anything, it just sits there. And I REALLY think I have the wiring correct, according to the diagrams....

Any tips on where to go next with troubleshooting? I'm kind of at a loss.

--chelsea

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Can you post some kind of drawing of your schematics?
Such behavior generally indicates a short somewhere, so something in your wiring is really likely to be wrong (even though you're fairly confident the wiring is correct)
Pictures, wiring drawings, the more we know the better.

Does your battery have some kind of BMS, in which case, do you know which one? Is there some kind of way you can access it using bluetooth to see what's going on?
What fuse did it burn? where is it placed and what current is it rated for?

 

[amberwolf]

Previously, I had it wired correctly (I thought...but obviously not), and I turned it on. The first time I turned it on, the contactor "clicked" and the voltage screen on the throttle was on. But, then, it slowly (like within a minute or two) burned my fuse and stopped working. After that, I kept trying and I blew a fuse instantly every time when I turned the key. I reworked the wiring again, thinking that I just had it wired incorrectly....

The first thing I would do is trace out all of your wiring, and draw it up on paper while you do it. This will help you see where every single wire actually goes, and then you can post this here so we can help you make sure that's where they *should* go.

Don't go by the diagram you followed to do the wiring--put that away, hide it and completely draw your own from scratch, traced out from what you *actually* have wired.

The most likely problem is a wiring error, though some wiring errors cause permanent damage to the parts involved and so fixing the wiring doesnt' fix the problem until the parts are replaced.


Next...what *exactly* do you mean by "slowly burned my fuse"? Did the fuse heat up gradually until the holder itself was really hot too, and then blow the fuse? Or did it just all sit there doing nothing but then suddenly the fuse blew? Or something else? As complete a description as possible. Including what voltage the throttle screen did show you, and any other details.

When troubleshooting remotely, more info is better.

I have a QS Motor (16" Hub Motor Brushless Non Gear 72V 6kW), Kelly Controller (Kelly KLS-8080H), and AegisBattery (72V 20Ah Lithium Battery with Charger). I have a Tyco Contactor (Tyco 100 Amp 12V Relay / Contactor / Solenoid LEV100 KILOVAC).

You don't mention a 12V DC-DC (powered off the main 72v battery) to provide power to the Contactor. What is your 12V source to run the relay coil? If your contactor is one on this spec sheet
https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=6-1773450-9_LEV100&DocType=DS&DocLang=English
then the 12v version takes almost half an amp of current to power the coil. If your DC-DC can't do this, and is on the fused side of things, then it may have failed and is causing the fuse to blow to prevent a potential fire.

If you don't have a DC-DC and are driving that coil off your battery voltage, it may have damaged the contactor itself (though I don't know why that would blow the fuse--that dpeends on your actual wiring).

If you don't have a DC-DC and are driving that coil off the 12v from the Kelly, it may have damaged the Kelly's 12V supply regulator, and be causing it to blow the fuse to protect against a potential fire. According to it's manual, "5V or 12V Sensor Supply Current: 40mA." which probably means the max current its' meant to supply to external devices is only 40mA, or less than a tenth of what the contactor requires.


A link to your exact battery's specification page will help us help you know if it is the right battery for your application, too. (we'd also need to know what you want the bike to do for you, riding style, road/path type, terrain, winds, weights, speed, range, etc--as much info as possible).

A link to your exact motor would also help.

 

[Dauntless]

Slowly burning the fuse could mean he had a slo-blow fuse that holds out longer. Meant for allowance of some transcient spikes. I didn't see it, nor have I seen one let go in a system that requires one. But I was picturing that from what he said. I would guess a normal fuse would have blown quicker, but this one would have waited for it to be a little too transcient in there, if that was the story. If so I'd think that was the wrong fuse and you'd want normal.

Or . . . ?

 

[amberwolf]

There are a number of possible things it *could* mean, but listing them isn't useful here. The OP has to say exactly what they did mean by it, to be useful for troubleshooting their specific problem.

 

[Dauntless]

Oh I know. I just might not be here when he gets back, if he gets back, people might be interested even it that's not it.

 

[chelsealuttrall]

Okay. Sorry, a few days have passed between posting and seeing your replies. I'll do the wiring diagram drawing (of what I did) as recommended, and get the other detailed info you all requested. As long as I didn't nuke all of my components, then I think you all are the folks to help me figure this out . I'll do that and post it here....though it may not be possible to do until the weekend for me. I'll post ASAP. Thanks again!

 

[chelsealuttrall]

Here is my current setup. Does this show my errors? The links to the components are below the pic.

-precharger: https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=299
-QS Motor (16" Hub Motor Brushless Non Gear 72V 6kW) http://www.qs-motor.com/product/16inch-6000w-in-wheel-hub-motor45h-v3-for-electric-motorcycle/,
-Kelly Controller (Kelly KLS-8080H). http://www.qs-motor.com/product/kel...l-bldc-motor-controller-for-electric-vehicle/ ,
-AegisBattery (72V 20Ah Lithium Battery with Charger). https://www.aegisbattery.com/collec...teries/products/72v-20ah-li-ion-battery-abs-1.
-I have a Tyco Contactor (Tyco 100 Amp 12V Relay / Contactor / Solenoid LEV100 KILOVAC).https://evdrives.com/tyco-100-amp-1...enoid-lev100-kilovac-lev100a4ang-3-1618389-7/

 

[amberwolf]

Ok, based on that diagram, you don't have a separate 12v power supply (dc-dc) to power the contactor, and I think you are are using the 12v from the controller (not sure if it outputs any 12v on pin 7 or not; if it doesn't i dont' see how your contactor could have ever triggered). Since the 12v from the controller can only supply 40mA (0.04A), and the contactor takes about ten times that amount of power to hold (even more for an instant to engage it), the controller can't supply enough power to run the contactor.

First test: take the contactor out of the circuit, so that the kelly is directly powered by the battery, and it's 12v is not having to power the contactor,

*or*

use a 12v battery to power the contactor, without the kelly's 12v being connected to it (or precharge or key) at all,

Then, if the controller powers on and operates normally, you just need a separate 12v source for the contactor (like whatever is going to run your lighting system, etc), and you'd be set.

If the controller does not operate normally this way either, then it's likely it's 12v is damaged, and you'd have to have kelly repair or replace the controller. You can measure the 12v at this point to see what voltage you get out of it. Measure the 5v too, since typically if one is "dead", so is the other. Without the 12v and 5v, the controller may not operate at all, or not correctly...and it can't power the motor halls or throttle, etc., without them.



A separate issue is you do not want to ground the battery to the frame. If you do, then any wire damage anywhere, or component failure, that allows a voltage to also short to the frame, will short your whole system out, with the potential for damage, failure, or possibly fire if fuses/etc fail to act as needed.

Additionaly, it also means you then have a hazardous voltage potential from the frame to anything that ends up (thru accident, design, or failure) with battery voltage on it.

I know it's common practice in some bikes and scooters and cars and such to use the frame to ground 12v for lighting and stuff, but even that can be a bad idea and cause wiring fires and other problems. So I dont' recommend doing that, either. If your lighting system already on there already uses the frame for 12v ground, you're kinda stuck with that unless you go thru and add new ground wires to every single thing, all the way from the sockets/etc back to the battery, which is probably more work than it's worth.

But dont' put your high voltage battery B- to the frame.

And also don't tie it's B- to the 12v B- becuase then you are tying high voltage B- to the frame if the 12v B- already is, or becomes so.

If you use a DC-DC converter for 12v (power3ed by the main high voltage battery) then use one that is "isolated" meaning none of the wires on the output are connected to anything on the input, and each has it's own completely separate ground.



I've atached the diagram from the controller page you linked below. The "12v" they use on pin 7 thru the key is a separate external battery (tahts' waht all those little lines mean). i'll see if i can mark up a version of that diagram to use the parts you've got instead.

 

[amberwolf]

Some other wiring issues, I think, based on the diagram from the linked page. If that diagram isn't right, then my stuff below won't be either.

In the diagram on the linked page, it says pin 12 is for Forward, and is something that goes to either a switch so you can have a reverse (using an SPDT switch with common to pin 11, and the poles to pin 12 and 14), or it goes directly to the *kelly* 12v (pin 11) if you only ever want to use it in "forward" mode.

You have this pin going to your throttle "power" (Y) wire. If the Y wire is supposed to power a voltmeter on the throttle, then the y wire needs to go to the kelly's B+ so that it gets the same voltage the kelly does, whenever the kelly is on. If the Y wire is supposed to power the throttle itself, then it needs to go to the 5v line from the kelly (pin 4)--I assume this is not the case since you have a separate (R) wire on the throttle going there, marked as 5v.

I didn't mark the voltmeter pin on your throttle on my modified diagram because of the above uncertainty.

I haven't checked the kelley manual but you may require the "foot switch" line (pin 15) to be connected to kelly 12v (pin 11) if your throttle doesn't have a switch in it that disengages throttle when you let go of throttle and it rotates back to zero. (some do, most don't).

You don't show any brake switch cutoff, but it might be a good idea to install them; if you have brake levers that control brake lights already, then you can use these to control the brake switch pin on the kelly (pin 25), probably directly but depends on your brake/taillight wiring; I'd use a relay to do this that controls both lights and brake function. I can draw that wiring if you want to do it. We just need to know how your lights are wired.



If you want to use it, there is the option for variable regen braking. To use it you may need either a separate "throttle" to control braking force after you've pulled hte brake lever, *or* you can put a cable splitter on one or both brake levers, and use a cable-operated-throttle (COT) to control braking force. Or use a dual-cable brake lever like some ATVs have. (these often come wiht brake light switches that can be used to run the ebrake line as well). If you want to do this, I can give further info on that.

If you aren't using either braking option, then you have to remember to let off the thorttle before using your mechanical brakes, as otherwise the motor will continue running while trying to brake. Useful for some stunt riding and certain unusual maneuvers, but not typically for normal street riding.


YOu don't show any of your motor connections, so I don't know if those are right or not. If they b oth came from the same place, hopefully they wired them up to just plug in and work.

Ive attached what *should* be the right wiring for the stuff you have (though i did not check which pins are which on your precharge or contactor, just drew it the way you have it, whcih is probably right).

 

[chelsealuttrall]

Very helpful. Thanks! I can't wait to go work on this next. I definitely have some revamping to do, but I knew I would. I'll get back to you once I rework it all!

 

[amberwolf]

Tommycat pointed a couple things out for me:

The pin 7 takes anything from 24 to 96v, thru the keyswitch. Based on the range this means it is almost certainly power to the LVPS for the brain of the controller (whcih generates the 12v and 5v, as well).


The footswitch is like I described, a switch that (if enabled in your contorller settings) locks out the throttle until the switch is engaged. So for instance if you have a grip thorttle with a zero-throtle-position switch in it, then you can use that switch on the footswitch line. Then if it's not engaged, the controller ignores all thorttle input, preventing for instance a runaway from a shorted thorttle wire or broken throttle ground (either of which are problems people ahve had with various systems).

It can also be used as a safety-siwthc signal, so that there can be a run/stop switch or other switch somewhere, that if not turned on, disables the thorttle. A hall or reed switch hidden under a bar grip could be used along with a magnet in your glove to make a secret kill switch for antitheft / etc so it won't run unless you, with your special glove(s) are holding onto the handlebar grips.

it's disabled by default, so unless you change the settings it's not rquire to hook up the footswitch.

The link to the KLS-H manual he got this from is
https://e-vehicle.eu/KellyKLS-HUserManualV1.10.pdf