new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[gman1971]

I purchased a GNG new for 2015 called Gen2; is a converted hub motor into a mid drive, thats the kit I purchased. It was called Gen2 GNG 2015.

G.

Motor on the GNG Gen2 was run with the stock controller, which peaked at ~1200 watts with freshly charged LiPos. I think I was considering shunting the controller at some point, but after speaking about it with you I never did. To run the motor at anything above 1.5kW it would've needed more like 32 amps, and the controller topped out at 22 amps IIRC, at least thats according to CA.

I remember you recommended me the Bafang and hub motors, I don't have recollection of any mention to the Cyclone... regardless tho, I was total noob then. I didn't have much of a clue about what made a good eBike and after sinking 320 dollars on that GNG kit I figured I had to try to at least make it work... In the end, I got tired of that POS breaking all the time so I tried the Cyclone, but I was one inch away from purchasing the BBSHD... I also got fed up with their customer service (or lack thereof) so that was the straw that broke the camel's back. What I knew tho is that wasn't keen on hub motors. And for the record, few days after the motor came out of my bike I took it apart and fixed the slipping clutch with a drill press and some metal plates, so the kit should work if I was to install it on another bike.

As for the pictures that you've showed, that's not the motor/kit that I have; but the plates look like they have a strikingly similar thickness of my Gen2 kit... fairly thin IMO, and on mine they are not countersunk... so they can have interference with the chainring...

I am willing to accept I might've made a mistake messing around too much with the GNG, but in the process I learned a lot... about bikes, and about ebikes... however, I am not picturing what your problem is tho...

FYI, the eBay 24V brushed motor that you warned me it was going to be total waste of time turned out to be a decent kit after all.... Works very well, and it only took me about 4 hours to install it and the only mod I had to is add some side adjustment holes to the motor mounting plate to allow for lateral movement and get the motor lined up with the chainring. As of today its been absolutely rock solid and my son has clocked about 200 miles on it running it on 12S LiPo @ 48V and it goes up to about 28mph on his 24" Roadmaster mtb. Is not Cyclone quality/power, but it has worked out to be a much better kit than Gen2 GNG.

G.

that's what i thought, i had question marks when you started referring to gng 2015 gen2, as there is no gen2 for the 2015, so everything you've experienced is related gng gen2 (no 2015) , the 2015 has no upper plates, it's jackshaft is held in a horizontal arm which is part of the motor casing itself, this is what i mean by superior, additionally the lower brackets are also strengthened by a middle arm in between them. those have not bent or broke (known on wood).

 

[emaayan]

oh, they called that one, 2015 too? too many names...

 

[lantice13]

lantice13,

I see these qualitative arguments like yours all the time--never addressing what is significant and what also happens but is of little significance. How about one simple quantitative idea?

BLDC Motors : for the sake of a simple understanding of BLDC motors, let's do some (linear analysis) of these motors using the likes of Ohm's Law V = I * R. And from this follows that Power[watts] = v * I = I * I * R = V * V / R The wattage of these motors can be calculated and declared for any reasonable voltage value[maybe 12v thru 96v]. The resistance in effective ohms here is due to the resistance in the wires and motor's load.

Let's say you have battery sets of many, many sets of parallel cells that can supply a huge amount of current and you can hook these sets in series to get both 48v and 72v. So current from this battery is not the limiting factor. Suppose the Cyclone 3000 uses 1500 watts at 48v then the effective R of this is 48 x 48 / 1500 = 1.536. Current I = V/R = 48 / 1.536 = 31.25 amps. Now at 72v, we see Power = 72 x72 / 1.536 = 3375 watts. This power into the motor for the same effective R.

The power out is Torque x radian RPM. We know voltage changes speed (motor RPM) proportionally to voltage change and current changes torque proportional to voltage change. And if your battery can supply more amps (infinite source) we could see more torque with more loading at a fixed voltage but here we are talking about the same effective R.

Next get your Cyclone 3000 motor and a CA and determine I max = current max the motor can get from your 48 v batteries. The current max will be on hills or accelerations with big loads. For that same loading at 72 v the torque changed is 72 / 48 = 1.5 and you will likely see an amperage increase of about 1.5 x , if your battery can supply it and the controller will allow that increase.

So when going from 48v to 72v with the same effective Resistance how much extra destroying force can 1.5 x torque do? If the framework of the motor setup has safety factor of 1 at 48v then 1.5 x torque puts loads on the aluminum that it cumulatively can not recover from. Most likely the Luna Cyclone 3000 setup at 48 v has safety design factor > 2, hopefully around 4?


We already know there is no catastrophic failure at startup when changing this setup from 48v to 72v. Changing the voltage here is not the same as putting Nitro in an engine that is without a forged crank.

No gonna lie here, I'm no Mechanical, Electrical engineer. I do understand the basics of ohms law and how a BLDC motor works. and yes I do understand that torque output at 3kw at 72v is not the same as what you get at 48v since you push more amps at 48v to get 3kw which in tuns have more torque since you pushed more amps. So basically if you run this at a higher voltage and maintain your 3kw output you'll push less amps which in turns lower your over all torque output. But wait....increasing the voltage means increasing the motor speed/rpm. so what do several stages of reduction do with a fast spinning motor? But either way it's still a lot of torque as these DC electric motor specially on several stages of reduction. You see the initial spikes in torque is the problem at these power levels what I found out from experience.

For the second part, so the mounts are aluminum?! I though aluminum doesn't do very good with flexing too much? that's not a good thing right? Also, are regular bike drive train designed for this torque at 3kw as it is? I've seen your photos of the hose clamps holding and reinforcing the left hand side of the motor, which is a brilliant and simple solution for the flexing. It's ugly, but it does the job I guess. But in a kit that is advertised as a 3kw kit why do you need to do all of this band aid/mods to run it at stock power? my point is that this thing is underbuilt for 3kw stock.

 

[lantice13]

I remember you recommended me the Bafang and hub motors, I don't have recollection of any mention to the Cyclone...

thought it was you... probably another guy earlier in the post lol.

 

[lantice13]

Motor on the GNG Gen2 was run with the stock controller, which peaked at ~1200 watts with freshly charged LiPos. I think I was considering shunting the controller at some point, but after speaking about it with you I never did. To run the motor at anything above 1.5kW it would've needed more like 32 amps, and the controller topped out at 22 amps IIRC, at least thats according to CA.

Well that GNG controller is junk anyway. That's one of the reason these things keeps failing. the control profile on those are for hub motors. it's rated for 400-450w, so you should had limit your peak amps accordingly.

 

[lantice13]

. however, I am not picturing what your problem is tho...
G.

Nothing really, Just seeing a similar pattern from the other thread. Still not convinced about the longevity of this kit at 3kw though, need more real world data from other builders that used this kit. :wink: so far it's a mixed bag.

 

[lantice13]

oh, they called that one, 2015 too? too many names...

they did...... with the difference of the Gen 2 part lol.

 

[tomjasz]

. however, I am not picturing what your problem is tho...
G.

Nothing really, Just seeing a similar pattern from the other thread. Still not convinced about the longevity of this kit at 3kw though, need more real world data from other builders that used this kit. :wink: so far it's a mixed bag.

Seriously? It's a cheap Chinese mid drive. I don't get anyone expecting it to be anything but. Made for fun and laughs. Not a serious commuter without significant tweaks making it a more expensive cheap Chinese motor.

 

[emaayan]

. however, I am not picturing what your problem is tho...
G.

Nothing really, Just seeing a similar pattern from the other thread. Still not convinced about the longevity of this kit at 3kw though, need more real world data from other builders that used this kit. :wink: so far it's a mixed bag.

Seriously? It's a cheap Chinese mid drive. I don't get anyone expecting it to be anything but. Made for fun and laughs. Not a serious commuter without significant tweaks making it a more expensive cheap Chinese motor.

although i'm not really sure about the fun and laughs bit, when i do see kits like that i immidietly start to think, "what would happen if..." and i metally list the parts that could fail and how i would replace them with something better , how EASY it is to replace them (i.e would i need to do an "open heart surgery" on the kit) or is it just a matter of a few bolts and nuts to open. how many parts can be off the shelf. etc..

 

[markz]

Either get the chinese kit, or upgrade to LR or AFT quality. Simple as that.

 

[DingusMcGee]

markz,

Either get the chinese kit, or upgrade to LR or AFT quality. Simple as that.

An upgrade to either the LR or ATF quality will not solve the problem I had today. Today I added a portable 24v saddle battery in series with the 52v Luna and the voltage display at the throttle read 86v when fully charged. The instrumentation on the 24v battery showed use at just over 1000 watts max and some 40 amp max on the max speed test ride. So that would be >3kw at the motor. The bike did get to 38 mph and no faster [i have got 42mph on the 52v alone] but with an incessant amount of chain skip on an 11T that has 54 miles on its cassette and chain. So as Lightning Rod has said about his 3kw Big Block mid drive, '... not suited for cassettes", neither is the Cyclone 3000 at 3000watts.

Yes, LR this Cyclone 3000 went on to the Stumpjumper Pro quicker [standard 68mm BB] than your Small Block mid drive went on the Fatboy with PF30 BB. Otherwise more adjusting with the Cyclone 3000 than your setup.

What I still ponder about is why only 38 mph max with somewhat more voltage than when I got 42 mph. I think the controller either limits some factor or that voltage was too much for the controller and it was heating excessively and not working quite right. It is working fine now.

Do the internal gear hubs hold up to 3000w?

lantice13,

No mechanical difficulties on the Cyclone 3000 and frame at 3000w like frame twisting and all those other speculations you project, just chain skip which I half expected.

My LR Small Block cost >2.5 x what the Cyclone 3000 cost. I think of this cyclone 3000 purchase as some cheap tinkering material. I have a Huffy 29+ with a Cromotor and a Mxus 3000 6T on a Mongoose Dolomite fat tire. Each of these bike cost $264 with tax and had hideous brakes. I have switched to searching Craig's List for used bikes.

Answer for above: Where ever you measure the torque, you must measure the radian rpm at the same place to get the power passing thru that point.

 

[gman1971]

And truth is I am still not convinced either, although I am happy with my initial impressions and first few hundred miles out of this kit, but the GNG left me paranoid... so I do carry more tools in my bike toolbox than I care to share, but suffice to say that I carry my own butane powered soldering iron inside my toolbox...

So far the kit is holding very well... and I did a complete check last night while cleaning all the salt and everything was tight as a drum. Knock on wood...

Power is nothing mre than Torque x RPM; so, if someone choses to run 3kW with an 11-44T gear configuration then yeah, this kit, or whats more important, your drivetrain won't hold for very long and probably not the bike frame either. However, if you decide to go the RPM route then you can put a lot more power down at the wheels without stressing the drivetrain components except the rear wheel. If you go with a 20-44, or even better 22-48T then you can run a lot of RPM that will give the exact torque at the wheels to go X speed without the massive amounts of torque running through the chain... you just won't be able to pedal along with it... thats all... but then again, if you are running 3kw pedaling doesn't mean squat.

I also did get to the bottom of my chain skipping issue; after checking for chain wear and finding is not even at .5 wear yet, basically brand new ... I noticed the derrailleur wasn't moving right... so apparently silly me reassembled the derailleur cage washers the wrong way after a clean up... so of course the chain wasn't holding any tension at all!! That took care of the chain skip altogether... still going to go the 44-48-32T route, I really wan this kit to be as reliable as I can possibly can make it.

G.

. however, I am not picturing what your problem is tho...
G.

Nothing really, Just seeing a similar pattern from the other thread. Still not convinced about the longevity of this kit at 3kw though, need more real world data from other builders that used this kit. :wink: so far it's a mixed bag.

 

[gman1971]

. however, I am not picturing what your problem is tho...
G.

Nothing really, Just seeing a similar pattern from the other thread. Still not convinced about the longevity of this kit at 3kw though, need more real world data from other builders that used this kit. :wink: so far it's a mixed bag.

Seriously? It's a cheap Chinese mid drive. I don't get anyone expecting it to be anything but. Made for fun and laughs. Not a serious commuter without significant tweaks making it a more expensive cheap Chinese motor.

Isn't Cyclone "made in Taiwan"?

 

[gman1971]

You must be using a much stronger frame than mine then; but my Response frame bends slightly when I apply full throttle from a dead stop.

You should try getting a 36T chainring for the drive chain; basically run a 36-48T chainring; that will allow you to top out the motor at the 15T pinion and not the 11T pinion so your skipping will be solved.

G.

markz,

Either get the chinese kit, or upgrade to LR or AFT quality. Simple as that.

An upgrade to either the LR or ATF quality will not solve the problem I had today. Today I added a portable 24v saddle battery in series with the 52v Luna and the voltage display at the throttle read 86v when fully charged. The instrumentation on the 24v battery showed use at just over 1000 watts max and some 40 amp max on the max speed test ride. So that would be >3kw at the motor. The bike did get to 38 mph and no faster [i have got 42mph on the 52v alone] but with an incessant amount of chain skip on an 11T that has 54 miles on its cassette and chain. So as Lightning Rod has said about his 3kw Big Block mid drive, '... not suited for cassettes", neither is the Cyclone 3000 at 3000watts.

Yes, LR this Cyclone 3000 went on to the Stumpjumper Pro quicker [standard 68mm BB] than your Small Block mid drive went on the Fatboy with PF30 BB. Otherwise more adjusting with the Cyclone 3000 than your setup.

What I still ponder about is why only 38 mph max with somewhat more voltage than when I got 42 mph. I think the controller either limits some factor or that voltage was too much for the controller and it was heating excessively and not working quite right. It is working fine now.

Do the internal gear hubs hold up to 3000w?

lantice13,

No mechanical difficulties on the Cyclone 3000 and frame at 3000w like frame twisting and all those other speculations you project, just chain skip which I half expected.

My LR Small Block cost >2.5 x what the Cyclone 3000 cost. I think of this cyclone 3000 purchase as some cheap tinkering material. I have a Huffy 29+ with a Cromotor and a Mxus 3000 6T on a Mongoose Dolomite fat tire. Each of these bike cost $264 with tax and had hideous brakes. I have switched to searching Craig's List for used bikes.

Answer for above: Where ever you measure the torque, you must measure the radian rpm at the same place to get the power passing thru that point.

 

[lantice13]

lantice13,

No mechanical difficulties on the Cyclone 3000 and frame at 3000w like frame twisting and all those other speculations you project, just chain skip which I half expected.

Speculate frame twisting? when did I say that? the flexing I'm referring to is with the mounting plates/hardware of the kit it self not the frame. And you and the other guy acknowledge that flexing issue as well and did modifications to reduce that flexing from earlier post. got pictures even.... Seems like you know a lot about stress mechanics. Did you do any simulations that shows how the hardware fares in the forces exerted by the motor? seems like you are saying that the motor itself doesn't produce enough pulling force to pull itself towards the chaining which is the primary reason in flexing the mounting hardware around it. Give me some torque values in a graph or something for the motor and the expected stress tolerances that the hardware can take before breaking. I can't do all the calculations and simulation, maybe you can do it for the community. Data from this should prove useful and to finally put away any doubts about how sound the design is.

Just to be clear, I do like this kit and I do see potential for a very robust kit but really.....it could use a better mounting solution. Anyone not seeing this as it is are really kidding themselves. I'm tired...... I'll wait for other people who had this kit to chime in and see their findings about the matter.

 

[lantice13]

Also what is the Kv of this motor? anyone figured that out?

 

[gman1971]

. however, I am not picturing what your problem is tho...
G.

Nothing really, Just seeing a similar pattern from the other thread. Still not convinced about the longevity of this kit at 3kw though, need more real world data from other builders that used this kit. :wink: so far it's a mixed bag.

Seriously? It's a cheap Chinese mid drive. I don't get anyone expecting it to be anything but. Made for fun and laughs. Not a serious commuter without significant tweaks making it a more expensive cheap Chinese motor.

I don't understand your disdain for this kit; or maybe I am reading too much into your post? I am having excellent results with it in pretty much stock as a "serious" daily commuter and weekend adventure bike... the only tweaks were the washers I added to make the motor mount rock solid, nothing else has been done to this kit.

G.

 

[gman1971]

lantice13,

No mechanical difficulties on the Cyclone 3000 and frame at 3000w like frame twisting and all those other speculations you project, just chain skip which I half expected.

Speculate frame twisting? when did I say that? the flexing I'm referring to is with the mounting plates/hardware of the kit it self not the frame. And you and the other guy acknowledge that flexing issue as well and did modifications to reduce that flexing from earlier post. got pictures even.... Seems like you know a lot about stress mechanics. Did you do any simulations that shows how the hardware fares in the forces exerted by the motor? seems like you are saying that the motor itself doesn't produce enough pulling force to pull itself towards the chaining which is the primary reason in flexing the mounting hardware around it. Give me some torque values in a graph or something for the motor and the expected stress tolerances that the hardware can take before breaking. I can't do all the calculations and simulation, maybe you can do it for the community. Data from this should prove useful and to finally put away any doubts about how sound the design is.

Just to be clear, I do like this kit and I do see potential for a very robust kit but really.....it could use a better mounting solution. Anyone not seeing this as it is are really kidding themselves. I'm tired...... I'll wait for other people who had this kit to chime in and see their findings about the matter.

Flexing on the plates/motor is due to bolts not being tightened compounded with the fact of not having enough leverage on the the left side mounts. Been there, done that... once you address that with washers you won't move the motor out of its place even with a sledgehammer...

G.

 

[lantice13]

I don't understand your disdain for this kit; or maybe I am reading too much into your post? I am having excellent results with it in pretty much stock as a "serious" daily commuter and weekend adventure bike... the only tweaks were the washers I added to make the motor mount rock solid, nothing else has been done to this kit.

G.

Coz I'm getting different reports form other users on the other channel. It's very inconclusive. if you read further on the beginnings of this thread, I am really optimistic about this kit, till the last few weeks when members of the ES FB starts reporting the potential problems of the kit.

 

[lantice13]

Flexing on the plates/motor is due to bolts not being tightened compounded with the fact of not having enough leverage on the the left side mounts. Been there, done that... once you address that with washers you won't move the motor out of its place even with a sledgehammer...

G.

Good to know that his fix works for you. I guess I'll suggest this fix if the flexing issues got mentioned again in our discussion at ES-FB and maybe they can do the mods on their kit and produce similar results. I suggest making a video showing the motor while running with load with this fix to finally prove that it does work. You see it's hard to believe something without any proof of it. Also, check back after you break 1000 mile mark with pictures of the mounting hardware so we can examine if the solution holds with minimal distortion of the bolts holding the motor.

 

[DingusMcGee]

lantice13,

I suggest making a video

And using who's resources? gman1971 and I are likely to put our resources where they will do us the most good. And we use this thread to communicate our enhanced intuitions and efforts about how things are working on our setup situation.

I see little actual engineering for the glorified LR Mid Drive but I have seen and read some 148 pages of crowd-sourcing. Crowd sourcing is not engineering-- where are the numbers, vector diagrams and finite element package results for loadings on the sheet frame? I suspect the Ford ebike design group put numbers on everything. And you pay big $$ for their thinking. The LR mid drive is not without shortcomings: The loggerheaded Michael Backus on chain guards,"...I don't like chain guards..." On the first day of riding my LR Small Block my pant leg caught twice. I immediately made a working chain guard for that zone. See pic



Aluminum -- Bad mouth it all you like. Yes, finite life. Bike frames are made of aluminum. A fleet of Stealth Bombers is mothballed at Ellsworth AFB due to fatigue at the rivets on the skin sheets, but repairable. And were the sheet skins underdesigned?

Usher in Spare Parts -- Without spare parts the auto industry would not exist as we know it. Without NAPPA and the likes, I would need another whole car to have spare parts. But as for the 2 piece aluminum frame on the Cyclone 3000, if a sheet fails I can fabricate such a simple sheet piece in less than an hour. And LR has a whole bunch of spare parts for sale for his mechanizations.

What is life like as an observing whiner! Maybe a steel-framed Omnibike for you?


.

 

[emaayan]

lantice13,

I suggest making a video

And using who's resources? gman1971 and I are likely to put our resources where they will do us the most good. And we use this thread to communicate our enhanced intuitions and efforts about how things are working on our setup situation.

I see little actual engineering for the glorified LR Mid Drive but I have seen and read some 148 pages of crowd-sourcing. Crowd sourcing is not engineering-- where are the numbers, vector diagrams and finite element package results for loadings on the sheet frame? I suspect the Ford ebike design group put numbers on everything. And you pay big $$ for their thinking. The LR mid drive is not without shortcomings: The loggerheaded Michael Backus on chain guards,"...I don't like chain guards..." On the first day of riding my LR Small Block my pant leg caught twice. I made a working chain guard for that zone. See pic



Aluminum -- Bad mouth it all you like. Yes, finite life. Bike frames are made of aluminum. A fleet of Stealth Bombers is mothballed at Ellsworth AFB due to fatigue at the rivets on the skin sheets, but repairable. And were the sheet skins underdesigned?

Usher in Spare Parts -- Without spare parts the auto industry would not exist as we know it. Without NAPPA and the likes, I would need another whole car to have spare parts. But as for the 2 piece aluminum frame on the Cyclone 3000, if a sheet fails I can fabricate such a simple sheet piece in less than an hour. And LR has a whole bunch of spare parts for sale for his mechanizations.

What is life like as an observing whiner!


.

(had google to loggerheaded)
148 pages, are you referring to the l-r thread?
actually someone DID do a stress analays on the sheets, only after the prototype started bending. as far i recall,
but i'm surprised to hear what you said about mike's quite about chain guard, i recall him saying he had nightmare about folks catching flesh in those sprockets.
i also see you have a chain tensioner, i thought lr's lower sheets should get rid of the need for that?
for my money steel is not always as strong as aluminium, i've had 3 mm steel chainrings from surely bent, vs 5mm 7075 T6 chainrings from thorn which are still going strong.

how? how can you fabricate such a sheet in less then an hour? can someone else do that? what's the price?

 

[DingusMcGee]

emaayan,

I must have forgotten about that engineering study? on the stress analysis in the sheets.

how? how can you fabricate such a sheet in less then an hour?

I am here referring to the left or right sheet of the cyclone 3000. I have a pattern, it can be sawed out of aluminum, it has three holes, I can drill 'em. It is flat.

can someone else do that?

Is this the beginning of a strawman argument you are presenting?

I am sure most machine shops can make one for some $ ??

So Mike B has demonstrated he can talk the talk about chain guards ..... Okay, I didn't settle for that.

No adjustment on this setup for the chain tension by translation. You can adjust belt tracking and tension.

 

[emaayan]

emaayan,

I must have forgotten about that engineering study? on the stress analysis in the sheets.

how? how can you fabricate such a sheet in less then an hour?

I am here referring to the left or right sheet of the cyclone 3000. I have a pattern, it can be sawed out of aluminum, it has three holes, I can drill 'em. It is flat.

can someone else do that?

Is this the beginning of a strawman argument you are presenting?

I am sure most machine shops can make one for some $ ??

So Mike B has demonstrated he can talk the talk about chain guards ..... Okay, I didn't settle for that.

No adjustment on this setup for the chain tension by translation. You can adjust belt tracking and tension.

When i was on the thread i remember someone displayed an image of the stress direction the sheets are handling, i don't recall which page.

As for machine shops, are you talking about cnc ones? Cause they will charge you a 4 digit figure for just one pair.
Making such plates are one of the biggest hurdles for me, i even thought about learning software such as sketchup or onshape,for drawing such things, but still missing someone to implement them, if you're a machinist yourself or own a machine shop that would make sense.

 

[DingusMcGee]

emaayan,

No machinist here.

And that plate does not need to be laser cut to work fine.

The plate is flat. The holes are perpendicular to the plate. Measurements and markings are easy. A good jigsaw[Makita] with a Lennox blade will cut the oblated rectangle close enough except for cutie bike esthetics. A drill press can cut the two little holes with wood bits. For the large hole get a hole saw that is already mounted on the abor as it will wobble somewhat less, making your hole rounder. By the way drill bits do not drill truly round holes -- they walk and there is a name for the 3 sided subtle out of round cut they make, which i forget.

It ain't Rocket Science! Didn't one blow up the other day?