evolutiongts
10 kW
20cell Lipo, 20 x 3.7v. 74V.
Yeah the bike never went over 38mph. I have a CA, never went over 2800 watts for some reason.
Yeah the bike never went over 38mph. I have a CA, never went over 2800 watts for some reason.
new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?
- Thread starter emaayan
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gman1971
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evolutiongts said:
As far as I know, 20 cell LiPo fully charged is 4.2V x 20 = 84V, not 3.7 x 20; 3.7 volts for LiPo is when the cell is ~half discharged, which can take a while to get there and in the meantime you're well above the rated capacity of the caps. I am thinking that perhaps you might've damaged the capacitors; which are clearly rated 80V, not 84V. If you really want to run the 20S LiPo that's you are looking at replacing them with 90V or 100V caps.
40 amps x 84V = 3360 watts, if you're not seeing that power on CA then it looks to me that you're also stuck at 35 amps on your controller... can you confirm this? ~84V x 35 amps = roughly 2900 w
Knowing what I know now I would never run this controller on more than 18S. I also don't know what the FETs are rated either, so that's something to consider as well... not just the capacitors.
Also, what gear where you pulling? B/c based on my findings there is absolutely no need to run an 11T pinion on my bike on mode #3 at all, mine cruises at 30mph on 5th or 6th gear (10spd bike); and that's with 46V left on the lipos... with 50% more volts should yield ~50% more RPM and more torque at low RPMs so the bike would cruise @ 30mph in 3rd gear, and also force me to use the 32T chainring for slower than 30 mph speeds.
In aero terms to double the speed it requires roughly 4 times the power. So if 30 mph requires ~1500 watts (for me at least), doubling the power should give half of 30mph, or 15mph, extra top end and that's about 45mph top end.
G.
evolutiongts
10 kW
I noticed the bike ran noticbily slower today, and won't go over 38mph. 23A max on the controller.
robocam
10 kW
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You're really making me want to get the Cyclone now =) Would you happen to have data on overall average current levels during different types of rides (such as during your commute and weekend family adventures)? Each average current would be an average for the entire ride. This should give me an idea of how hard it's working the battery. It'd be neat to be able to see a graph of current vs. time. I know this is different for everyone, but any data is better than no data.
gman1971 said:Fixed my problem and I am back to normal, well now its more than normal... its super-freaking-awesome. The motor peaks at 2100 watts again.
Apparently one of the contacts for the throttle connector was corroded pretty bad from the salt adventure and even I thought I decontaminated everything, this guy wasn't so it wasn't making a good contact (intermittent contact) So I went ahead and soldered all the throttle/on-off switch cables directly to the controller; the only connectors left are the main power phases and the ignition bullet connector, all others are now hardwired and heatshrinked... technically speaking I could probably dunk the bike in a lake and it should (hopefully) keep on running...
The results are out of this world... in mode #3 with only 43 volts left on the pack the bike will pull a wheelie at 10 mph on the 32T chainring!! Its a rush of power that is out of this world... I can't wait to commute to work tomorrow with a full pack... however, I am sure my Wh/mile is going to double... with the thing peaking at 49 amps and sustained of low 40s its going to guzzle the pack FAST!! We'll see!!
I am hoping to get into the high 30s now that the controller rev-limiter is being turned off... I also saw where the shunt is on the controller too, so the next mod will be shunting the thing to get even more ridiculous power, then 72V shunted... lets see how long the motor lasts!!I'll be buying a 3-position SPDT switch to use the power switch in the controller to tame the bike... but until the weekend I'll be running it on mode #3...
Mode #3 is highly recommended...
G.
gman1971
10 kW
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Lol, wasn't my intention, but I know the feeling!! and I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Commutes depends entirely (or mostly, at least) on speed; the faster I go the higher the average draw is. At 30 mph cruise, and a 26.4 mph average for 8.2 miles my CA reads ~8000 mAh used, give it or take it 2000 mAh up or down depending on wind... with a good tailwind I've gotten as low as 6200, and with a 20mph headwind up to 10,000 mAh on same trip. What I've learn is to use my gears to control my current draw... I let the motor spin full RPM all the time and I control the top speed with the gears, so if I want to use less current, I downshift...
As a matter of fact, this last Friday I had to do an "emergency" 10 mile trip (from work to another place not my home) and I wasn't sure if I was going to make it so instead of the usual 30mph I cruised at 25 mph, mostly on 4th gear, and I did the 10 miles using only 7400 mAh at 22mph Average. Not a single pedal stroke.
During the adventures we tend to go slow, my wife's bike wasn't electric until a couple of weekends ago; average speed was 6-8 mph; we usually do about 10 miles round trip, and 5 of those 10 miles are climbing offroad. When returning home I usually had to put around 8000 mAh back on the pack.
Expect the battery to be worked hard when climbing uphill while towing stuff. I was peaking almost 2kW for the uphill portion; or 40-something amp peaks. Also upon hard acceleration expect at least 40 amp peaks. 49 might not be out of the question either.
I don't have the CA datalogger, but I have an Eagletree eLogger that I might just steal from one of my RC helicopters and stick it on the bike to see whats going on.
G.
Commutes depends entirely (or mostly, at least) on speed; the faster I go the higher the average draw is. At 30 mph cruise, and a 26.4 mph average for 8.2 miles my CA reads ~8000 mAh used, give it or take it 2000 mAh up or down depending on wind... with a good tailwind I've gotten as low as 6200, and with a 20mph headwind up to 10,000 mAh on same trip. What I've learn is to use my gears to control my current draw... I let the motor spin full RPM all the time and I control the top speed with the gears, so if I want to use less current, I downshift...
As a matter of fact, this last Friday I had to do an "emergency" 10 mile trip (from work to another place not my home) and I wasn't sure if I was going to make it so instead of the usual 30mph I cruised at 25 mph, mostly on 4th gear, and I did the 10 miles using only 7400 mAh at 22mph Average. Not a single pedal stroke.
During the adventures we tend to go slow, my wife's bike wasn't electric until a couple of weekends ago; average speed was 6-8 mph; we usually do about 10 miles round trip, and 5 of those 10 miles are climbing offroad. When returning home I usually had to put around 8000 mAh back on the pack.
Expect the battery to be worked hard when climbing uphill while towing stuff. I was peaking almost 2kW for the uphill portion; or 40-something amp peaks. Also upon hard acceleration expect at least 40 amp peaks. 49 might not be out of the question either.
I don't have the CA datalogger, but I have an Eagletree eLogger that I might just steal from one of my RC helicopters and stick it on the bike to see whats going on.
G.
robocam said:You're really making me want to get the Cyclone now =) Would you happen to have data on overall average current levels during different types of rides (such as during your commute and weekend family adventures)? Each average current would be an average for the entire ride. This should give me an idea of how hard it's working the battery. It'd be neat to be able to see a graph of current vs. time. I know this is different for everyone, but any data is better than no data.
gman1971 said:Fixed my problem and I am back to normal, well now its more than normal... its super-freaking-awesome. The motor peaks at 2100 watts again.
Apparently one of the contacts for the throttle connector was corroded pretty bad from the salt adventure and even I thought I decontaminated everything, this guy wasn't so it wasn't making a good contact (intermittent contact) So I went ahead and soldered all the throttle/on-off switch cables directly to the controller; the only connectors left are the main power phases and the ignition bullet connector, all others are now hardwired and heatshrinked... technically speaking I could probably dunk the bike in a lake and it should (hopefully) keep on running...
The results are out of this world... in mode #3 with only 43 volts left on the pack the bike will pull a wheelie at 10 mph on the 32T chainring!! Its a rush of power that is out of this world... I can't wait to commute to work tomorrow with a full pack... however, I am sure my Wh/mile is going to double... with the thing peaking at 49 amps and sustained of low 40s its going to guzzle the pack FAST!! We'll see!!
I am hoping to get into the high 30s now that the controller rev-limiter is being turned off... I also saw where the shunt is on the controller too, so the next mod will be shunting the thing to get even more ridiculous power, then 72V shunted... lets see how long the motor lasts!!
Mode #3 is highly recommended...
G.
gman1971
10 kW
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evolutiongts said:
23A on the controller? Uff, that sounds like the controller could be having issues. It should be pulling sustained 40 amp with 40+ peaks.
You could get the highly praised Lyen controller... which seems to be programmable too and its probably more up your alley of what you are looking to do... (your signature of multi-kW ebikes sort of speaks for itself)
G.
tomjasz
1 GW
tomjasz
1 GW
Simpler cheaper but all on paper until I have one in hand. Have several CA3's. CA bit to futsy for me most of the time hoping this will be more user friendly. from th look of the screens it may be easier. mo money....
robocam
10 kW
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Thanks for the numbers gman!
Thanks for the graph tomjasz. What kind of setup is that from? I considered the Batt Man but it doesn't have current limiting capabilities does it? I'm thinking about just using one of these for now.
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B017BDQHE6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_8&smid=AFHAE9RJVUMB
gman1971 said:
Thanks for the graph tomjasz. What kind of setup is that from? I considered the Batt Man but it doesn't have current limiting capabilities does it? I'm thinking about just using one of these for now.
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B017BDQHE6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_8&smid=AFHAE9RJVUMB
tomjasz said:
gman1971
10 kW
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robocam said:
NP,
Btw, I have that same exact model (or a clone of it) on my son's ebike. Don't expect anything earth shattering, or better yet, don't expect it to last very long... the display is a bit on the low quality side, some of the segments on the display have started to fade/or stuck always on... sometimes it doesn't measure current correctly... I would step up to something better; now, for a 12 yr/old ebike? sure, but for something like the Cyclone 3000 W where you really need to be on top of the telemetry coming out of the system I would get an older CA v2.3 at the very least...
G.
Leebolectric
1 kW
Question...
...as this kit is 36-72v...is there anything that needs to be changed to run it at 36v? (I have it running 48/52v now)
The question is for this idea...
52v20ah backpack battery for wild trails and fun.
36vx10ah removable water bottle battery for commuting.
Would the 36v make it "street legal"...and a quick swap for power and speed when a 52v is hooked up?
Does the throttle and everything still work at different voltages?....or is there a deeper process?
...as this kit is 36-72v...is there anything that needs to be changed to run it at 36v? (I have it running 48/52v now)
The question is for this idea...
52v20ah backpack battery for wild trails and fun.
36vx10ah removable water bottle battery for commuting.
Would the 36v make it "street legal"...and a quick swap for power and speed when a 52v is hooked up?
Does the throttle and everything still work at different voltages?....or is there a deeper process?
Mikebike
100 W
I finished up my kit recently on a Cargo bike. I have 36volt battery with lower than recommended Amps/c rating (please see previous posts in this topic about this exact situation)
As far as the volts goes, the motor/kit is performing very well at 36 volts and has no trouble with about 350 pounds total load as a pedal assist and going up moderate hills.
I have only had the kit a short while and I am being very conservative due to my battery situation. I haven't had to deal with big hills and I am getting a proper 36 or 48 volt battery pack with higher amperage capacity to cover the valid amps/c draw concerns as helpfully posted by others in this topic previously.
As far as the volts goes, the motor/kit is performing very well at 36 volts and has no trouble with about 350 pounds total load as a pedal assist and going up moderate hills.
I have only had the kit a short while and I am being very conservative due to my battery situation. I haven't had to deal with big hills and I am getting a proper 36 or 48 volt battery pack with higher amperage capacity to cover the valid amps/c draw concerns as helpfully posted by others in this topic previously.
gman1971
10 kW
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Leebolectric said:
40amps at 36 V still way above the supposedly 750watt legal power limit. Nothing on this Cyclone kit is really legal, no matter how you slice it. The only way to make this legal would be to de-shunt the controller, as in, take one of the two shunt resistors out to increase resistance thus making it a 20 amp controller; then it will arguably be on the legal limit...
G.
Leebolectric
1 kW
cool thanks, just a morning thought
DingusMcGee
10 kW
Saturday I had the digital smart level with me and was at the ATV-motorcycle trails on the BLM lands just south of Guernsey State Park. The most spectacular hill climb in the area has a smooth 2-track up it measuring 40% at the bottom but the bike needs no run for this steepness. The 120 ft hill gets progressively steeper to a 25 ft zone of 50% and then rolls off to fatness at the top. My gearing was 44-34-34 using Luna triangle 52 Samsung 26f battery pack. The first and only run needed no petal assist but the bike was creeping sub-robustly at maybe 4 mph. I was at full throttle. There was no perceived wheel spinning but a look at the tire marks on the dirt showed a tiny bit of lug mark packing. 65% is the natural talus angle [33 degrees] and I would expect to get noticeable wheel spinning at this steepness. At the steepness where spinning occurs gear ratio extrapolations lose predictiveness. But lower gear than I have could make this bike climb a little bit steeper.
I could not do all the steep hill in the area. One had a mud zone., The second had deep spin out ruts near the top and I kept doing a wheelie in this zone where others had not got enough traction. Big wheel holes can make the local zone of climb-out quite steep. The third and quite unused 2-track had a lot of big rocks and choosing a rock free path seemed impossible to then navigate. Hitting these rocks sends you into wheelie land quite easily.
I could not do all the steep hill in the area. One had a mud zone., The second had deep spin out ruts near the top and I kept doing a wheelie in this zone where others had not got enough traction. Big wheel holes can make the local zone of climb-out quite steep. The third and quite unused 2-track had a lot of big rocks and choosing a rock free path seemed impossible to then navigate. Hitting these rocks sends you into wheelie land quite easily.
gman1971
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DingusMcGee said:
When I navigate difficult slippery and snowed terrain is by trying to keep my speed up and leaning forward. Also having a 32T chainring and 36T sprocket really helps climb anything (its 1.125 so you get a lot of torque) I am currently considering getting the 24T chainring to replace the 32T for even more towing capacity since now the 48T fits the bill perfect for cruising on the road.
G.
DingusMcGee
10 kW
robocam,
the specifications for my battery from Luna are:
I suspect the OEM controller was limiting output to 40amp.
the Samsung 25r pack specifications state:
To get more from the 25r you would have to change the BMS. But worth asking, "Are the 80 amp bursts the same for both batteries?"
There is a trade off on going up very steep hills: Slide back and you get more traction but you are more likely to wheelie. Move forward and you loose traction but can keep the front end down. You cannot be both fore and aft. Without more front shock travel running into 6 inch rocks on steep terrain will bounce you into wheelie mode. Although less than 50% grade, the hill I last mention is quite difficult and I suspect that is why it sees little travel. With all the rocks in your path on this 2-track you continually get perturbations from the ideal path making for quite difficult on the fly course corrections. I am sure this hill takes a high level of riding skill to top out on and simply more motor, more torque and more suspension -- the things money can buy -- just aren't enough to get you topping out on it.
But I think my bike in its present configuration could be navigated up that hill with some course practicing runs. Its specialty is not this type of workout.
the specifications for my battery from Luna are:
I suspect the OEM controller was limiting output to 40amp.
the Samsung 25r pack specifications state:
To get more from the 25r you would have to change the BMS. But worth asking, "Are the 80 amp bursts the same for both batteries?"
There is a trade off on going up very steep hills: Slide back and you get more traction but you are more likely to wheelie. Move forward and you loose traction but can keep the front end down. You cannot be both fore and aft. Without more front shock travel running into 6 inch rocks on steep terrain will bounce you into wheelie mode. Although less than 50% grade, the hill I last mention is quite difficult and I suspect that is why it sees little travel. With all the rocks in your path on this 2-track you continually get perturbations from the ideal path making for quite difficult on the fly course corrections. I am sure this hill takes a high level of riding skill to top out on and simply more motor, more torque and more suspension -- the things money can buy -- just aren't enough to get you topping out on it.
But I think my bike in its present configuration could be navigated up that hill with some course practicing runs. Its specialty is not this type of workout.
gman1971
10 kW
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Well, as you said, skill is also involved in these kind of technical hills. To give an idea of how important skill is, when I first got my GNG working I went with a friend who does highly technical MTB trails to one of the difficult trails around here; he had no motor assist and he smoked me on the technical parts of the track, obviously on the non-technical parts the tables turned... so yeah, motor assist is no good if you don't have the skill to handle it... I had 1200 watts at my disposal and I couldn't even dream of keeping up with a dude running on pedal power alone... I am highly unskilled for MTB stuff, I mostly do road cycling.
G.
G.
DingusMcGee said:
DingusMcGee
10 kW
gman1971,
My hardest uphill mt bike onsight [no stops] was the Massa Back Trail that begins on the left river road downstream of Moab, Ut. It had none of the contrivances that I see nowadays to enhance difficulty. Yet all the hills were quite short. There were having the Jeep hill climbing contest there that day and since races had not started the sheriff let us go ahead. We outpaced the Jeeps easily but I doubt whether we could beat any modern ATV's or good motor cycle riders up that course.
I suspect very few if any mt bike riders could make the Guernsey area hill simply pedaling and no motor assist. I just don't see any mt bike trails/rides going uphill on terrain like this.
My hardest uphill mt bike onsight [no stops] was the Massa Back Trail that begins on the left river road downstream of Moab, Ut. It had none of the contrivances that I see nowadays to enhance difficulty. Yet all the hills were quite short. There were having the Jeep hill climbing contest there that day and since races had not started the sheriff let us go ahead. We outpaced the Jeeps easily but I doubt whether we could beat any modern ATV's or good motor cycle riders up that course.
I suspect very few if any mt bike riders could make the Guernsey area hill simply pedaling and no motor assist. I just don't see any mt bike trails/rides going uphill on terrain like this.
robocam
10 kW
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They both may have the same BMS, but the 25r's characteristics are very different than the 26f's.
If you drain the 20 Ah 26f pack at 40.8 A continuously, its effective capacity will be reduced to 16.32 Ah. The 26f's spec sheet states that a 2C drain rate will result in an 80% capacity.
If you drain the 20 Ah 25r pack at 80 A continuously, its effective capacity will be 99.2% of its 0.2C capacity. Basically, the 25r pack's effective capacity is the same as its advertised capacity even at relatively high current levels.
The 25r should be able to hold a higher voltage under load as well, delivering higher watt hours because even if a pack can deliver a certain Ah, the pack that can deliver that Ah at a higher voltage will allow you to go faster. The 25r has much less internal resistance, so less energy will be converted to heat.
Now how much of this matters in real life I don't know because I know I won't draw a 40A load continuously, so I don't know if I'll notice any advantage using the 25r pack.
Also, the 26f pack with 8 groups in parallel, is rated at 40 amps max, so if you're pulling 40 A, you're at the limit of the pack, while the 25r pack is loafing along at 25% of its maximum 160A ability.
https://www.powerstream.com/p/INR18650-25R-datasheet.pdf
http://www.oomipood.ee/kasutusjuhend/ICR18650-26FM.pdf
If you drain the 20 Ah 26f pack at 40.8 A continuously, its effective capacity will be reduced to 16.32 Ah. The 26f's spec sheet states that a 2C drain rate will result in an 80% capacity.
If you drain the 20 Ah 25r pack at 80 A continuously, its effective capacity will be 99.2% of its 0.2C capacity. Basically, the 25r pack's effective capacity is the same as its advertised capacity even at relatively high current levels.
The 25r should be able to hold a higher voltage under load as well, delivering higher watt hours because even if a pack can deliver a certain Ah, the pack that can deliver that Ah at a higher voltage will allow you to go faster. The 25r has much less internal resistance, so less energy will be converted to heat.
Now how much of this matters in real life I don't know because I know I won't draw a 40A load continuously, so I don't know if I'll notice any advantage using the 25r pack.
Also, the 26f pack with 8 groups in parallel, is rated at 40 amps max, so if you're pulling 40 A, you're at the limit of the pack, while the 25r pack is loafing along at 25% of its maximum 160A ability.
https://www.powerstream.com/p/INR18650-25R-datasheet.pdf
http://www.oomipood.ee/kasutusjuhend/ICR18650-26FM.pdf
DingusMcGee said:
gman1971
10 kW
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The Cyclone controller will keep steady at 40 amps, but peaks will be closer to 50 amps, so expect the occasional 40+ amp peak for a second or so, especially when gunning it. I would go with the better battery; that's why I went with LiPos (vs LiFePo), so my performance wasn't limited by my batteries... but by my right hand twisting more or less...
G.
G.
robocam said:
