new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[gman1971]

And top speed is exactly the same; I didn't do this for better top speed. As I explained a few post above, top speed is not dictated by gearing, it is dictated by power and I haven't added a single watt of power to my bike: I haven't changed my batteries. (which is where the power really comes from, not the motor, not the controller (the controller is just a gate to allow more power to flow from whatever the batteries can deliver, and the motor, well, the motor is just what converts electrical energy into mechanical work, again power conservation also applies here too... ) )

By unlocking mode #3 on my controller I removed the "artificial" RPM limiter so now my motor can spin 50% faster than it did before. Oh, and before you hit the reply button to raise the BS flag, let me say that just because the motor spins 50% faster it doesn't mean it has 50% more power, again, my batteries/controller ultimately dictate the absolute amount of power my system can deliver, not the motor. You need to see power as BOTH torque AND RPM, not just as one (no perpetual motion machines). So, by spinning 50% faster at the same power level I MUST have 50% less torque at the motor shaft due to power conservation.

So because of that fact, my entire drivetrain starts with 50% less torque/force from the motor output shaft, and then I even go one step further with yet another 10% reduction in force (and RPM increase) at the 44->48T chainring exchange; so now that I have 55% more chain speed on the cassette chain and 55% less force going through it; and because the cassette chain is moving 55% faster I can shift my gears to use a 17T (55% more tooth than the 11T) which will convert that extra 55% speed and 55% less torque into the same 1600 watts that I was doing before with the motor running 50% slower RPM and 50% more torque with the 44-44T chainring combo. And a side benefit, in addition to the 55% less force through the chain, I've also increased my contact surface from 5 teeth to 9 or 10 teeth, so that halves the force at each sprocket teeth even further... meaning I now have a long lasting and happy drivetrain. All without having to resort to some heavy duty BMX chains or other crazy custom hardware.

BTW, this is not a theory, this is how its done in real bikes; or why do think Hayabusas and the like don't run an 11T as their rear wheel sprocket? Motorcycles do it the way I am attempting to do it because they have to last a lifetime on the chain, and a 44-11T gear ratio on a 12k RPM, 200 horsepower IC engine won't last a day, no matter how strong the chain is. In exchange for extending my chain longevity I have to sacrifice the ability to pedal my bike at full throttle... but that's fine; this is my commuter for winter and will be for rainy summer days, because for the clear summer days I have my carbon road bike...

G.

I understand your theory behind trying to make the drivetrain last longer by reducing the load on the chain, but I thought we were talking about maximizing top speed. There is a gear ratio that should give you maximum velocity (with other factors held constant, such as grade or wind), and it shouldn't matter how it is achieved (high or low-revving driveline).

When you say that the final result is exactly the same, I hope you don't mean the overall gear ratio is exactly the same, because if it is the same, the top speed should be the same. The overall ratio is what determines how fast your motor is spinning, and from a top speed perspective, that's all that matters (assuming you don't have some power-robbing inefficiency in your driveline).

So when you mentioned "RPM capabilities," I'm not really sure that makes sense because if the overall ratio is the same, the motor will be spinning at the same rpm whether your driveline is high or low-revving. The only component that will spin slower or faster would be your crankset.

The final result is exactly the same, but internally it makes a world of difference, and here is why:...

...The moral of the story is if your motor has the RPM capabilities, then you should always aim for higher RPM and not for more torque (unless you like fixing bent stuff)

G.

 

[gman1971]

basically all the bearings are crushing out of their retainers.
the cranks wobble side to side about an inch at the pedals.
been riding for 30 years, never had a bb go that bad, let alone that fast.
walmart bikes hold up better...yes, UTTER RUBBISH.

Judging by this one, I wouldn't suggest the Cyclone ISIS bb.
I'm getting a nice TruvativeGigaPipeDH, tried and true quality.

Who pedals?<wink>

Exactly... who pedals?

G.

 

[robocam]

What gear did you cruise in before and after the 44 to 48 change? 13 or 15 and now 15 or 17?

With your motor unlocked, I'd be curious to know your new top speed in 1st gear (using the 32 in the front and 36 in the rear). This will allow me to calculate your motor's unlocked maximum RPM.

The reason I say that top speed is dictated by gearing is because the motor will only draw what it draws depending on its load (this is assuming the controller is not limiting the current). There is a point (RPM) of maximum horsepower, and if you gear your bike to take advantage of that, it will go as fast as it is able to.

And top speed is exactly the same; I didn't do this for better top speed. As I explained a few post above, top speed is not dictated by gearing, it is dictated by power and I haven't added a single watt of power to my bike: I haven't changed my batteries. (which is where the power really comes from, not the motor, not the controller (the controller is just a gate to allow more power to flow from whatever the batteries can deliver, and the motor, well, the motor is just what converts electrical energy into mechanical work, again power conservation also applies here too... ) )

By unlocking mode #3 on my controller I removed the "artificial" RPM limiter so now my motor can spin 50% faster than it did before. Oh, and before you hit the reply button to raise the BS flag, let me say that just because the motor spins 50% faster it doesn't mean it has 50% more power, again, my batteries/controller ultimately dictate the absolute amount of power my system can deliver, not the motor. You need to see power as BOTH torque AND RPM, not just as one (no perpetual motion machines). So, by spinning 50% faster at the same power level I MUST have 50% less torque at the motor shaft due to power conservation.

So because of that fact, my entire drivetrain starts with 50% less torque/force from the motor output shaft, and then I even go one step further with yet another 10% reduction in force (and RPM increase) at the 44->48T chainring exchange; so now that I have 55% more chain speed on the cassette chain and 55% less force going through it; and because the cassette chain is moving 55% faster I can shift my gears to use a 17T (55% more tooth than the 11T) which will convert that extra 55% speed and 55% less torque into the same 1600 watts that I was doing before with the motor running 50% slower RPM and 50% more torque with the 44-44T chainring combo. And a side benefit, in addition to the 55% less force through the chain, I've also increased my contact surface from 5 teeth to 9 or 10 teeth, so that halves the force at each sprocket teeth even further... meaning I now have a long lasting and happy drivetrain. All without having to resort to some heavy duty BMX chains or other crazy custom hardware.

BTW, this is not a theory, this is how its done in real bikes; or why do think Hayabusas and the like don't run an 11T as their rear wheel sprocket? Motorcycles do it the way I am attempting to do it because they have to last a lifetime on the chain, and a 44-11T gear ratio on a 12k RPM, 200 horsepower IC engine won't last a day, no matter how strong the chain is. In exchange for extending my chain longevity I have to sacrifice the ability to pedal my bike at full throttle... but that's fine; this is my commuter for winter and will be for rainy summer days, because for the clear summer days I have my carbon road bike...

G.

 

[gman1971]

EDIT- reread and understood....

So, you speak horsepower, well horsepower = power = 745.7 watts... so your top speed is dictated by the amount of power your bike can deliver. To go twice as fast you need four times the power.

I think we are talking about two things, max gearing speed and your absolute top speed. The later is dictated by power and sorry, but max speed in 1st gear is not your top speed... unless in the case of single speed or hub motor ebike then that would be their top speed. In the case of a single speed you can change the gearing the same way you would on a derailleur bike, trading low end for top end; so your bike will accelerate really slow but will be able to reach its aero top speed; at the expense of some serious heat. I geared my bike to reach top speed in 5th gear because I want to rev it, rather than mash it.

Before I cruised in 44-13T, now I cruise @ 30mph sharp (sometimes 29.something...) in 48-21T (turns out my 5th gear is 21T, not 20T as I thought (Shimano HG-62-11-36T cassette)) I can also shift to 6th gear 48-19T and that lets me cruise at 32-33 mph at the expense of 200-300 more watts, now according to the gearing myth if I shifted to the 48-17T I should go faster, but I don't; shifting to 17T leaves me at the same 32-33mph, but amps peg to near max, and if the gearing myth dictated top speed shifting to 48-15T I should be able to hit 42 mph, but my top speed actually goes back down to 30mph and amps are pegged at max, and I was to up-shift to 48-13T according to this myth it should hit 45 mph, but instead it goes even lower, down to the high 20s while amps are still peg at max, and if I shift to 48-11T the motor starts to warm up real fast and speed drops even further... gearing doesn't mean anything if you don't have the power to pull the gear. If I stick a 72V pack in there I am pretty damn sure my bike will do 50 mph, especially after today almost hitting 48mph on a 5% downhill.

The motor speed is 50% faster of whatever it was before. Unloaded it does 51 mph on 13-44 / 48-11T in mode #2, when I enable mode #3 it does 74.9 mph on the same 48-11T. Did you see the video I posted? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

G.

What gear did you cruise in before and after the 44 to 48 change? 13 or 15 and now 15 or 17?

With your motor unlocked, I'd be curious to know your new top speed in 1st gear (using the 32 in the front and 36 in the rear). This will allow me to calculate your motor's unlocked maximum RPM.

The reason I say that top speed is dictated by gearing is because the motor will only draw what it draws depending on its load (this is assuming the controller is not limiting the current). There is a point (RPM) of maximum horsepower, and if you gear your bike to take advantage of that, it will go as fast as it is able to.

And top speed is exactly the same; I didn't do this for better top speed. As I explained a few post above, top speed is not dictated by gearing, it is dictated by power and I haven't added a single watt of power to my bike: I haven't changed my batteries. (which is where the power really comes from, not the motor, not the controller (the controller is just a gate to allow more power to flow from whatever the batteries can deliver, and the motor, well, the motor is just what converts electrical energy into mechanical work, again power conservation also applies here too... ) )

By unlocking mode #3 on my controller I removed the "artificial" RPM limiter so now my motor can spin 50% faster than it did before. Oh, and before you hit the reply button to raise the BS flag, let me say that just because the motor spins 50% faster it doesn't mean it has 50% more power, again, my batteries/controller ultimately dictate the absolute amount of power my system can deliver, not the motor. You need to see power as BOTH torque AND RPM, not just as one (no perpetual motion machines). So, by spinning 50% faster at the same power level I MUST have 50% less torque at the motor shaft due to power conservation.

So because of that fact, my entire drivetrain starts with 50% less torque/force from the motor output shaft, and then I even go one step further with yet another 10% reduction in force (and RPM increase) at the 44->48T chainring exchange; so now that I have 55% more chain speed on the cassette chain and 55% less force going through it; and because the cassette chain is moving 55% faster I can shift my gears to use a 17T (55% more tooth than the 11T) which will convert that extra 55% speed and 55% less torque into the same 1600 watts that I was doing before with the motor running 50% slower RPM and 50% more torque with the 44-44T chainring combo. And a side benefit, in addition to the 55% less force through the chain, I've also increased my contact surface from 5 teeth to 9 or 10 teeth, so that halves the force at each sprocket teeth even further... meaning I now have a long lasting and happy drivetrain. All without having to resort to some heavy duty BMX chains or other crazy custom hardware.

BTW, this is not a theory, this is how its done in real bikes; or why do think Hayabusas and the like don't run an 11T as their rear wheel sprocket? Motorcycles do it the way I am attempting to do it because they have to last a lifetime on the chain, and a 44-11T gear ratio on a 12k RPM, 200 horsepower IC engine won't last a day, no matter how strong the chain is. In exchange for extending my chain longevity I have to sacrifice the ability to pedal my bike at full throttle... but that's fine; this is my commuter for winter and will be for rainy summer days, because for the clear summer days I have my carbon road bike...

G.

 

[Mikebike]

Regarding the motor rpm's I have been trying to find a performance graph for this motor.
I was hoping to learn the "sweet spot" for voltage and amperage in my battery selection from this information?
Closest thing I have found was on Cyclone website at bottom but I dont know if that bottom graph is even for this model?

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

Kit continues to work great for me. Emergency kill switch recommended by stinky (very nice compact switch, thanks again stinky) is in and I will finalize the wiring this weekend.
The gearing conversation is very interesting. Really enjoying this thread!

 

[AF7JA]

Closest thing I have found was on Cyclone website at bottom but I dont know if that bottom graph is even for this model?

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

Kit continues to work great for me. Emergency kill switch recommended by stinky (very nice compact switch, thanks again stinky) is in and I will finalize the wiring this weekend.
The gearing conversation is very interesting. Really enjoying this thread!

What I am taking from that chart is that the motor should be kept between 1500&2000 rpm.

 

[gman1971]

Regarding the motor rpm's I have been trying to find a performance graph for this motor.
I was hoping to learn the "sweet spot" for voltage and amperage in my battery selection from this information?
Closest thing I have found was on Cyclone website at bottom but I dont know if that bottom graph is even for this model?

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

Kit continues to work great for me. Emergency kill switch recommended by stinky (very nice compact switch, thanks again stinky) is in and I will finalize the wiring this weekend.
The gearing conversation is very interesting. Really enjoying this thread!

Unfortunately none of those curves are for the motor we have on our kits... all I know is that revving it at max RPM like I am doing the motor seems very happy and barely gets warm at all; even cruising at 30+ mph for 8.2 miles.

G.

 

[Mikebike]

OK, I emailed cyclone to see if they will send us performance data for our motor. Hopefully they will respond.

 

[brucemetras]

Unfortunately none of those curves are for the motor we have on our kits... all I know is that revving it at max RPM like I am doing the motor seems very happy and barely gets warm at all; even cruising at 30+ mph for 8.2 miles.

G.

Sounds like you've optimized your system.. what's your amp draw or watt reading at level road 32 mph ?

 

[gman1971]

Unfortunately none of those curves are for the motor we have on our kits... all I know is that revving it at max RPM like I am doing the motor seems very happy and barely gets warm at all; even cruising at 30+ mph for 8.2 miles.

G.

Sounds like you've optimized your system.. what's your amp draw or watt reading at level road 32 mph ?

between 1200-1600 watts depending on headwind.

G.

 

[brucemetras]

between 1200-1600 watts depending on headwind.

G.

Thanks, I'm trying to get a handle on my own much lower powered bike without having a watt meter inline, and your figures help put it in perspective.. do you charge after your 8mi commute? if my rough figures are in the ball park you're depleting the battery around 6 or 7 amps? over the 16 or so minutes to commute? what's the capacity of the battery your using? Sorry if all this info is buried somewhere on ES in one of your previous answers.

 

[gman1971]

between 1200-1600 watts depending on headwind.

G.

Thanks, I'm trying to get a handle on my own much lower powered bike without having a watt meter inline, and your figures help put it in perspective.. do you charge after your 8mi commute? if my rough figures are in the ball park you're depleting the battery around 6 or 7 amps? over the 16 or so minutes to commute? what's the capacity of the battery your using? Sorry if all this info is buried somewhere on ES in one of your previous answers.

6 to 8 amps consumption over 8 miles. I am using two 6S LiPo with 12 Ah capacity each. Yes I recharge at work and at home.

G.

 

[robocam]

Well, yes, the more power you have, the faster you can go, but what I'm saying is that for the motor in the Cyclone kit, it is only capable of a certain maximum power output at any given voltage. This maximum output occurs at a certain RPM, so in order achieve maximum top speed, one must gear their bike in a certain way.

Regarding top speed, and I know you're not trying to go faster, but I thought this discussion originated as one pertaining to top speed....As I mentioned in my post yesterday, we're trying to find a point between being gear-limited and being motor limited. As you have already discovered, your motor limit is somewhere around or between your 17 and 19T rear sprockets. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the idea of a "gear myth." I think you're assuming that I think you can go as fast as you want by changing your gearing. That is certainly not the case.

Anyway, as you went to your 19T sprocket, you noticed that your motor got hot. This is past your motor limit. You motor is now operating less efficiently, converting more energy to heat without providing additional power output. If we had a continuously variable gear, this is where we would back off just until your speed begins to decrease. This point is your top speed and maximum power (and maximum efficiency for that top speed).

When you reported that your trip took 2Ah less, was that with your motor "unlocked?" Because if it wasn't, I'd be curious to know if you're using even less energy now. I'm really glad you discovered this mode switching. You have me sold on the Cyclone. While I don't have anything against the new 2016 premium GNG mid drive, the extra power of the Cyclone and its lower price have won me over. And after thinking about it, yes, who pedals? =) My main concern is going too fast with the Cyclone, so I'm going to have to gear-limit my setup so that I don't kill myself.

EDIT- reread and understood....

So, you speak horsepower, well horsepower = power = 745.7 watts... so your top speed is dictated by the amount of power your bike can deliver. To go twice as fast you need four times the power.

I think we are talking about two things, max gearing speed and your absolute top speed. The later is dictated by power and sorry, but max speed in 1st gear is not your top speed... unless in the case of single speed or hub motor ebike then that would be their top speed. In the case of a single speed you can change the gearing the same way you would on a derailleur bike, trading low end for top end; so your bike will accelerate really slow but will be able to reach its aero top speed; at the expense of some serious heat. I geared my bike to reach top speed in 5th gear because I want to rev it, rather than mash it.

Before I cruised in 44-13T, now I cruise @ 30mph sharp (sometimes 29.something...) in 48-21T (turns out my 5th gear is 21T, not 20T as I thought (Shimano HG-62-11-36T cassette)) I can also shift to 6th gear 48-19T and that lets me cruise at 32-33 mph at the expense of 200-300 more watts, now according to the gearing myth if I shifted to the 48-17T I should go faster, but I don't; shifting to 17T leaves me at the same 32-33mph, but amps peg to near max, and if the gearing myth dictated top speed shifting to 48-15T I should be able to hit 42 mph, but my top speed actually goes back down to 30mph and amps are pegged at max, and I was to up-shift to 48-13T according to this myth it should hit 45 mph, but instead it goes even lower, down to the high 20s while amps are still peg at max, and if I shift to 48-11T the motor starts to warm up real fast and speed drops even further... gearing doesn't mean anything if you don't have the power to pull the gear. If I stick a 72V pack in there I am pretty damn sure my bike will do 50 mph, especially after today almost hitting 48mph on a 5% downhill.

The motor speed is 50% faster of whatever it was before. Unloaded it does 51 mph on 13-44 / 48-11T in mode #2, when I enable mode #3 it does 74.9 mph on the same 48-11T. Did you see the video I posted? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

G.

 

[Leebolectric]

Yes, it WILL work.
It is built slightly differently...but functions the same.
The outer collars grab the mounting plates well.
The BEST part besides the multiple sealed bearings...is that there is greater thread engagement on the non-drive side.
The stock style have a 3mm ring to apply all the torque...the GigaPipe engages deep into the actual threads of the bb shell.

My Tangent kit uses the 128mm spindle, should be the same on this motor.

I was WRONG...the 128mmGigaPipe does NOT fit.
As suggested it's spindle is not wide enough to clear the motor...weak.
The 145mm one might work if I could remove one bearing...but doubtful.
Luckily I needed a spare for the Tangent kit, so no money wasted.

 

[gman1971]

Only If I try to pull the wrong gear the motor gets hot, but while cruising on the right gear the motor remains cool. I've found an optimal point for cruising at 30mph. But that's only because I chose to go 30mph as cruise speed, I can push it up to 32-33 mph if I am willing to incur in higher battery drain... which I am not.

The 2Ah (more like 1Ah averaged over 4 days) was without the motor unlocked, that was just a 10% overdrive and running the same 24 mph average speed for the 8 miles. Now with the motor unlocked I am going faster average speed and it's roughly using the same mAh as it did before while running at the lower average speeds. So yes, the power consumption has gone down even further, and now I am taking advantage of that to go faster... My average has gone up from 24.5 mph to 28.5 mph and battery consumption has remained around 6-8 aH for the same 8 mile patch.

Theoretically the motor can deliver as much power as you can pump through it; there is nothing preventing from pumping 200 volts and 200 amps, a motor is nothing more than an electrical circuit; except chances are the motor won't survive since it doesn't have the heat dissipation nor the mechanical construction to withstand 40 kW (and wire insulation might be too thin).. In regards to any given voltage the motor can only deliver certain power; well, that's power conservation, or better yet, that's the first law of thermodynamics. If your battery can only deliver 10 kW, then that's the absolute your motor can deliver simple as that. If the controller is also liming the power, then that's the limit.... The motor is nothing more than a device that converts electrical energy into mechanical work. There is no power inside the motor... the motor does not create power... the motor only converts energy from electrical form to kinetic form.

This cyclone is a great kit, I am not going to argue with that... I will get another one for my wife once her GNG one-way clutch craps out, again... she is already running a 44T-48T-32T thriple chainwheel with a Cyclone ISIS BB on the GNG so I'll just get the motor, controller and throttle.

Yeah, I hear you, at 49 mph is sort of scary, but really fun... but I only hit that kind of speed on the downhills, on the flats I keep it pegged at 30... perfect cruising speed for eBikes.

G.

Well, yes, the more power you have, the faster you can go, but what I'm saying is that for the motor in the Cyclone kit, it is only capable of a certain maximum power output at any given voltage. This maximum output occurs at a certain RPM, so in order achieve maximum top speed, one must gear their bike in a certain way.

Regarding top speed, and I know you're not trying to go faster, but I thought this discussion originated as one pertaining to top speed....As I mentioned in my post yesterday, we're trying to find a point between being gear-limited and being motor limited. As you have already discovered, your motor limit is somewhere around or between your 17 and 19T rear sprockets. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the idea of a "gear myth." I think you're assuming that I think you can go as fast as you want by changing your gearing. That is certainly not the case.

Anyway, as you went to your 19T sprocket, you noticed that your motor got hot. This is past your motor limit. You motor is now operating less efficiently, converting more energy to heat without providing additional power output. If we had a continuously variable gear, this is where we would back off just until your speed begins to decrease. This point is your top speed and maximum power (and maximum efficiency for that top speed).

When you reported that your trip took 2Ah less, was that with your motor "unlocked?" Because if it wasn't, I'd be curious to know if you're using even less energy now. I'm really glad you discovered this mode switching. You have me sold on the Cyclone. While I don't have anything against the new 2016 premium GNG mid drive, the extra power of the Cyclone and its lower price have won me over. And after thinking about it, yes, who pedals? =) My main concern is going too fast with the Cyclone, so I'm going to have to gear-limit my setup so that I don't kill myself.

EDIT- reread and understood....

So, you speak horsepower, well horsepower = power = 745.7 watts... so your top speed is dictated by the amount of power your bike can deliver. To go twice as fast you need four times the power.

I think we are talking about two things, max gearing speed and your absolute top speed. The later is dictated by power and sorry, but max speed in 1st gear is not your top speed... unless in the case of single speed or hub motor ebike then that would be their top speed. In the case of a single speed you can change the gearing the same way you would on a derailleur bike, trading low end for top end; so your bike will accelerate really slow but will be able to reach its aero top speed; at the expense of some serious heat. I geared my bike to reach top speed in 5th gear because I want to rev it, rather than mash it.

Before I cruised in 44-13T, now I cruise @ 30mph sharp (sometimes 29.something...) in 48-21T (turns out my 5th gear is 21T, not 20T as I thought (Shimano HG-62-11-36T cassette)) I can also shift to 6th gear 48-19T and that lets me cruise at 32-33 mph at the expense of 200-300 more watts, now according to the gearing myth if I shifted to the 48-17T I should go faster, but I don't; shifting to 17T leaves me at the same 32-33mph, but amps peg to near max, and if the gearing myth dictated top speed shifting to 48-15T I should be able to hit 42 mph, but my top speed actually goes back down to 30mph and amps are pegged at max, and I was to up-shift to 48-13T according to this myth it should hit 45 mph, but instead it goes even lower, down to the high 20s while amps are still peg at max, and if I shift to 48-11T the motor starts to warm up real fast and speed drops even further... gearing doesn't mean anything if you don't have the power to pull the gear. If I stick a 72V pack in there I am pretty damn sure my bike will do 50 mph, especially after today almost hitting 48mph on a 5% downhill.

The motor speed is 50% faster of whatever it was before. Unloaded it does 51 mph on 13-44 / 48-11T in mode #2, when I enable mode #3 it does 74.9 mph on the same 48-11T. Did you see the video I posted? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

G.

 

[DingusMcGee]

There seems to be one hell of a lot of chatter about optimizing.

If it is chain/gear wear, the wear is likely proportional to the product of chain speed and chain tension. It seems some precision measurements are needed to substantiate which gear combinations actually result in the least wear. That is: What is the weighted criteria measurement for the total wear of the various parts? Cost?

If you are optimizing energy consumed for whatever gearing, then consult the CA on watt-hrs/mile for all the gear combinations even those that involve changing to other chain rings.

An interesting speculation is whether the presumed[we don't really know this] gear combination that is suspected of the least wear also gives the best [lowest] watt-hrs/mile.

 

[gman1971]

I can't agree nor disagree with your statement that wear = speed x tension b/c I don't know. However, what I know is people here are using thicker chains to deal with the increased tension; well, myself instead of dealing with it by going to a thicker chain I've reduced the tension...

But if that was the case, the I've reduced chain tension 50% more than the proportion of speed I've increased, so that should give me 50% more life alone if that equation was to be used. However, there is also another factor to consider, the curvature of my chain has been reduced by using the 48T-21T so the chain links now rotate a lot less during ever round trip, so while the linear speed might be faster the angular speed/movement of the links has been reduced substantially as well, due to increased number of teeth engaged... I suspect my chain is going to last a very long time. I also try to keep the chain cleaned and lubed, not every day, but maybe once a week to remove all the salt and grime from the road; so chain maintenance + reducing stress is going to pay off in the long run. My chain checker tool hasn't even shown .5 wear, not even close and I am at almost at 1100 miles now and I've driven most of those at 30+...

My Wh/mile are around 40ish, I've gotten down to high 30s... but I am going almost as fast as the bike would go so that is expected... with the GNG I had a high 20s Wh/mile; but then again, the GNG only allowed for 22 amps max and the Cyclone allows peaks double of that, so the Wh/mile is going to be roughly double; also, average power draw on GNG was around 600-800 watts, average on the Cyclone is 1200-1600. On the GNG I could only get up to 30 mph on very few situations, whereas with the Cyclone 30mph is effortless; the fastest I went on the GNG was 37 mph on the same downhill I am almost hitting 49 on the Cyclone... so the extra 1200+ watts of power are making a huge difference. Plus this motor barely gets warm, the GNG if pushed too hard it would hit 170F within 5-6 miles of my 8 mile commute...

I can get mt Cyclone Wh/mile down in the teens if I lower my speed down and I pedal along... but that is no secret, power doesn't come from thin air... and yeah, lower Wh/mile can translate to longer chain life (unless your pedal strength is out there);

I think what I've done will prolong chain life by quite a bit, along with giving me the ability to use 72V without snapping the drivetrain in 300 miles. Again, this is how its done on high power motorcycles, so I see no reason why it shouldn't work on eBikes... a chain is a chain, there is nothing magical about it and once you understand (thanks to Chalo) how the forces at play work then you can decide what to do.

Robocam: My top speed in 36-32T has gone up to 17 mph; more or less 50% over what it was before.

G.

There seems to be one hell of a lot of chatter about optimizing.

If it is chain/gear wear, the wear is likely proportional to the product of chain speed and chain tension. It seems some precision measurements are needed to substantiate which gear combinations actually result in the least wear. That is: What is the weighted criteria measurement for the total wear of the various parts? Cost?

If you are optimizing energy consumed for whatever gearing, then consult the CA on watt-hrs/mile for all the gear combinations even those that involve changing to other chain rings.

An interesting speculation is whether the presumed[we don't really know this] gear combination that is suspected of the least wear also gives the best [lowest] watt-hrs/mile.

 

[evolutiongts]

Still dialing in the Cyclone with the sabvoton sine wave controller. Very nice, I'm getting 19wh/mi while cruising 20-25mph.

Battery amps reduced from from 70A down to 50A battery because I want to reduce consumption. Phase amps is at 145A and the mid throttle set to 75A. Motor is relatively tame now, but can pull a wheelie from 5 to 15mph with half throttle.

Throttle control is excellent, no more unintended wheelies, going to increase more phase amps. Still does nice burn outs from a stop while holding the front brake.

Summary.

Battery amps increases overall power and top end but also consumption

Phase amps dictates torque and force.

Also my controller has flux weakening = Higher setting = higher top speed at the expense of efficiency.

 

[gman1971]

Very nice,

I've noticed that from going 20mph cruise to a 30mph cruise the Wh/mile skyrockets like crazy... Maybe I should try going 15-20mph average to see what kind of Wh/mile I get?

Sounds like that Sabvoton controller is very nice, but seems a bit too big, right? What do you think?

G.

Still dialing in the Cyclone with the sabvoton sine wave controller. Very nice, I'm getting 19wh/mi while cruising 20-25mph.

Battery amps reduced from from 70A down to 50A battery because I want to reduce consumption. Phase amps is at 145A and the mid throttle set to 75A. Motor is relatively tame now, but can pull a wheelie from 5 to 15mph with half throttle.

Throttle control is excellent, no more unintended wheelies, going to increase more phase amps. Still does nice burn outs from a stop while holding the front brake.

Summary.

Battery amps increases overall power and top end but also consumption

Phase amps dictates torque and force.

Also my controller has flux weakening = Higher setting = higher top speed at the expense of efficiency.

 

[evolutiongts]

Its a larger controller than most but bare in mind the Sabvoton is a electric scooter/motorcycle grade sinewave controller so it runs cool even under 6000w+

I ran my electric bike on the track with a cromotor, after 20 minutes of track action, the hub motor was very hot, sabvoton stayed cool.

I cut out a aluminum plate and bolted it under the downtube of my Giant Trance, using the 2 waterbottle bolts and a single zip tie. No problems with clearance at all, plenty of room for the pedals, zero contact.

The usb port can also be used as a cell phone charger =)

Its tuned right now at 70 battery amps and 155A phase, still able to pick up the front wheel at low speeds but only if I apply a generous amount of throttle. Torque is very nice. Very aggressive acceleration.

 

[gman1971]

Very nice!!

G.

 

[millzy555]

Quick question...are the chains the same width (Motor to crank & Crank to cassette). I think this could solve my problem of the chains catching in the higher gears

 

[Mikebike]

Response from paco at cyclone about the performance specs related to this motor was that their testing equipment only goes to 1000 watts so they can't provide the 3000 watt motor performance information.

Re: Milzy555. I used regular bike chain for both motor to crank and crank to cassette so the width is the same for both chains.

 

[evolutiongts]

70A was a bit too much for the Cyclone motor which ran hot even at 30mph.

Toning it back down to 50A and phase amps back at 145A

 

[gman1971]

70A was a bit too much for the Cyclone motor which ran hot even at 30mph.

Toning it back down to 50A and phase amps back at 145A

Holy smokes, dude, had it running at 70A???? and 72V? thats a whoopping 5kW!!! Holy shit... must've been insane!!

G.